Spirit Marionette [obe] bleed

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Quick question. If a vampire bleeds using Spirit Marionette at [obe]
does you prey tap a minion as the action is announced or once resolved

CiRcLe
 
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Yorik wrote:
> Quick question. If a vampire bleeds using Spirit Marionette at [obe]
> does you prey tap a minion as the action is announced or once resolved
>

Yes. As with all action cards, card text is executed upon the
successful resolution of the action. Specific card text, saying that
some effect resolved earlier, would be needed to override this.

Regards
DaveZ
Atom Weaver
 
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All effects of an action take place when the action is resolved, unless
stated otherwise.
 
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Spirit Marionette
Action
Cost: None
[dom]: (D) Bleed at +1 bleed. [obe]: (D) Bleed at +1 bleed and tap a ready
minion controlled by your prey (even if the target of the bleed is changed).
[OBE]: +1 stealth action. (D) Take control of any ready untapped minion
until the end of the next action. That minion must bleed your prey unless he
or she must hunt.

Once resolved. No action has an effect as it is announced (it might get
blocked).

I can understand why [obe] might be confusing, as things that happen before
the action is resolved (bouncing a bleed) may affect the action.


-Vin

"Yorik" <pukemidget@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119043165.256222.203940@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Quick question. If a vampire bleeds using Spirit Marionette at [obe]
> does you prey tap a minion as the action is announced or once resolved
>
> CiRcLe
>
 
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If the bleed is bounced, is it still a D action against the new target?
The [obe] version is targeting the Meth being bled, though it also
seems like it's targeting a vamp of your prey. Does that make it an
undirected action (because it's targeting stuff from multiple Meths) ?

Thanks,

Ira
 
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LSJ wrote:
> ira212@gmail.com wrote:
> > If the bleed is bounced, is it still a D action against the new target?
>
> Yes.
>
> > The [obe] version is targeting the Meth being bled, though it also
> > seems like it's targeting a vamp of your prey. Does that make it an
> > undirected action (because it's targeting stuff from multiple Meths) ?
>
> No. It only targets the Methuselah being bled. If that directed bleed
> is successful, there is an added effect.
>
> --
> LSJ (vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
> Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
> http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

How do you define target then?
Just from the wording (bleed at +1 *and* tap a vamp), it seems like the
same case as mehemet (burn a blood *and* a Discipline card), where it's
undirected if the controller of card and vamp are not the same.
 
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ira212@gmail.com wrote:
> If the bleed is bounced, is it still a D action against the new target?

Yes.

> The [obe] version is targeting the Meth being bled, though it also
> seems like it's targeting a vamp of your prey. Does that make it an
> undirected action (because it's targeting stuff from multiple Meths) ?

No. It only targets the Methuselah being bled. If that directed bleed
is successful, there is an added effect.

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Arden McBathan wrote:
> How do you define target then?

The target of the bleed.

See also Deflection, Redirection, and Telepathic Misdirection.

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Hey LSJ,

I understand that Mehemet's action is undirected if the controller of
the discipline card and the vamp aren't the same.

I understand that [obe] Spirit Marionette is directed even if the
target of the bleed and the controller of the vamp to-be-tapped aren't
the same.

I do not understand *why* that is the case, given the extremely similar
language on both cards. Could you attempt to explain the "why" in a
way that I can understand?

If I had to attempt to explain it now, I would guess that the
difference is the *comma* after "Bleed at +1 Bleed." Because of that
comma, it implies that the second clause is an added effect.
Furthermore, I would say that the parenthetical statement " (even if
the target of the bleed is changed)" is simply reminder text and
doesn't make a difference in why Mehemet and [obe] Spirit Marionette
are treated differently.

Having written that, I think the comma seems like a weak argument, so
hopefully there's something I'm missing. Personally, the answer that
makes the most sense to me is "game balance," but that seems
inconsistent with Mehemet.

Thanks,

Ira


Mehemet:
As a (D) action, Mehemet may burn one blood and one Master Discipline
card on a vampire controlled by your prey.

Spirit Marionette:
(D) Bleed at +1 bleed, and tap a ready minion controlled by your prey
(even if the target of the bleed is changed).
 
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On a tangent, does the Meth playing [obe] Spirit Marionette need to
declare the vampire-to-be-tapped when the action is declared, or only
after the action is sucessful?

Thanks,

Ira
 
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On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:16:42 GMT, LSJ <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
scrawled:

>ira212@gmail.com wrote:
>> If the bleed is bounced, is it still a D action against the new target?
>
>Yes.
>
>> The [obe] version is targeting the Meth being bled, though it also
>> seems like it's targeting a vamp of your prey. Does that make it an
>> undirected action (because it's targeting stuff from multiple Meths) ?
>
>No. It only targets the Methuselah being bled. If that directed bleed
>is successful, there is an added effect.

do you have to name the vampire you wish to tap when you announce the
action?

salem
http://www.users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/VtES/index.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)
 
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On 22 Jun 2005 00:45:07 -0700, "ira212@gmail.com" <ira212@gmail.com>
scrawled:

>On a tangent, does the Meth playing [obe] Spirit Marionette need to
>declare the vampire-to-be-tapped when the action is declared, or only
>after the action is sucessful?

[mental note]

read whole thread before posting....damnit!


salem
http://www.users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/VtES/index.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)
 
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Hey LSJ,

Would you consider responding to this thread? I feel like it's still
unresolved.

Thank you!

Ira

> ...
> I do not understand *why* that is the case, given the extremely similar
> language on both cards. Could you attempt to explain the "why" in a
> way that I can understand?
> ...
 
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ira212@gmail.com wrote:

> Hey LSJ,
>
> Would you consider responding to this thread? I feel like it's still
> unresolved.

There's no context to this post, so not much to respond to.

> Thank you!
>
> Ira
>
>
>>...
>>I do not understand *why* that is the case, given the extremely similar
>>language on both cards. Could you attempt to explain the "why" in a
>>way that I can understand?
>>...
>
>


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Hello LSJ,

> There's no context to this post, so not much to respond to.

I apologize. I realize that you are so busy that it's unreasonable to
expect you to track down what I was referencing. I just see this
thread, but you're reading hundreds of messages a day.

Could you respond to the following post, earlier in this thread:

http://tinyurl.com/7ph8r

Thank you!

Ira
 
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ira212@gmail.com wrote:
> Hello LSJ,
>
>
>>There's no context to this post, so not much to respond to.
>
>
> I apologize. I realize that you are so busy that it's unreasonable to
> expect you to track down what I was referencing. I just see this
> thread, but you're reading hundreds of messages a day.
>
> Could you respond to the following post, earlier in this thread:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/7ph8r

Heh. OK.

Next time, try "paste as quotation" (or just paste the context
you're interested in and wrap it in "
" and "
Click to expand...
" markers).

Bleeds are directed.
Spirit Marionette is a bleed. It is a directed bleed.
It also taps a minion, but that is immaterial to the directedness.
Like Enticement's buring of your Edge doesn't make the action
undirected.

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Hey LSJ,

Mehemet's action* seems analogous to a bounced Spirit Marionette, yet
they work differently. The only difference I see is the comma, and
perhaps the idea that Bleed actions are always directed.

Would you please consider the following imaginary cards, and tell me if
they are directed or undirected actions?

Card 1
Only playable if there are at least three Methuselas
Enter combat with a minion controlled by your predator, and tap a
minion controlled by your prey.

Card 2
Only playable if there are at least three Methuselas
Enter combat with a minion controlled by your predator and tap a minion
controlled by your prey.


In my mind, Card 1 seems very similar to a bounced Spirit Marionette,
and Card 2 seems very similar to Mehemet's action*. Also, they all
seem very similar to each other. :)

Thanks,

Ira

* For the duration of this discussion, please assume the Master card is
controlled by someone else for Mehemet's action.
 
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ira212@gmail.com wrote:

> Hey LSJ,
>
> Mehemet's action* seems analogous to a bounced Spirit Marionette, yet
> they work differently. The only difference I see is the comma, and
> perhaps the idea that Bleed actions are always directed.

Mehemet's action is not a bleed.

SM is a directed bleed which also happens to tap a minion of
your prey if the action is successful.

Enticement is a directed burn pool effect which also happens
to burn your Edge if successful.

> Would you please consider the following imaginary cards, and tell me if
> they are directed or undirected actions?

No. Treat SM and Enticement are special cases, if you need to.

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Sorry for beating the dead horse, but i think i saw it twitching when
looking for an unrelated ruling on SM...

LSJ wrote:
> ira212@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Hey LSJ,
> >
> > Mehemet's action* seems analogous to a bounced Spirit Marionette, yet
> > they work differently. The only difference I see is the comma, and
> > perhaps the idea that Bleed actions are always directed.
>
> Mehemet's action is not a bleed.
>
> SM is a directed bleed which also happens to tap a minion of
> your prey if the action is successful.

compare with:

<<<LSJ 23 Apr. 2004 20:31

Alexander Michels wrote:
> Maybe this has been covered somewhere else before, but I just received a
> strange question about spirit marionette. Can you use Spirit Marionette at
> inferior if your prey controlls no minions (or no ready minions)? Since the

No.

> card says "Bleed at +1 bleed and tap a ready minion controlled by your
> prey...."

!!!!
> is it considered both a bleed action and an action to tap a minion
> (thus cannot be used if there's nothing to target?).
!!!!

> Or does the action
> resolve to the best of its ability, and accomplish as much as it can when
> successful.

The former. >>>

Do those rulings contradict? If not, why? (Just for my understanding of
targetting, i understand that SM will never ever be ruled undirected
when bounced...)


> Enticement is a directed burn pool effect which also happens
> to burn your Edge if successful.
>
> > Would you please consider the following imaginary cards, and tell me if
> > they are directed or undirected actions?
>
> No. Treat SM and Enticement are special cases, if you need to.
>
> --
> LSJ (vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
> Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
> http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
 
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Oliver.Frey@gmail.com wrote:
> Sorry for beating the dead horse, but i think i saw it twitching when
> looking for an unrelated ruling on SM...
>
> LSJ wrote:
>>ira212@gmail.com wrote:
>>>Mehemet's action* seems analogous to a bounced Spirit Marionette, yet
>>>they work differently. The only difference I see is the comma, and
>>>perhaps the idea that Bleed actions are always directed.
>>
>>Mehemet's action is not a bleed.
>>
>>SM is a directed bleed which also happens to tap a minion of
>>your prey if the action is successful.
>
> compare with:
> <<<LSJ 23 Apr. 2004 20:31
>
> Alexander Michels wrote:
>>Maybe this has been covered somewhere else before, but I just received a
>>strange question about spirit marionette. Can you use Spirit Marionette at
>>inferior if your prey controlls no minions (or no ready minions)? Since the
>
> No.
>
>>card says "Bleed at +1 bleed and tap a ready minion controlled by your
>>prey...."
>
> !!!!
>
>>is it considered both a bleed action and an action to tap a minion
>>(thus cannot be used if there's nothing to target?).
>
> !!!!
>
>>Or does the action
>>resolve to the best of its ability, and accomplish as much as it can when
>>successful.
>
> The former. >>>
>
> Do those rulings contradict? If not, why? (Just for my understanding of
> targetting, i understand that SM will never ever be ruled undirected
> when bounced...)

No. Similarly Enticement. Enticement "targets" the Edge (for burning),
although the action is directed elsewhere. Spirit Marionette (a bleed)
targets the target of the bleed (bleeding is always (D)irected). It
also chooses/selects a minion, so, by the rules on choosing/selecting,
the appropriate choice/selection must be available.

--
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Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
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