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I just got hammered by an Una deck..you need to see this!

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Anonymous
June 26, 2005 4:55:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

(Sorry, don't know if this is going to the right thread - I'm having
some trouble with this google group thing... Says "Unable to retrieve
message")

I think it's a pretty genius deck, and has the potential to slay
pretty much any deck without much trouble. The way I see it, it has
three major faults.

One, it's a one-man-show (or a one-woman-show, haven't seen the
vampire), and is vulnerable to all kinds of nastiness targeting
single, powerful vamps. Still, rarely do those come up in your first
few turns or are doable right then and there... So I wouldn't want to
start as Una's prey.

Two, it can die from a bad shuffle or draw. If for some reason, the
deck only gets a few freaks in the first 3-5 rounds of the game, it's
pretty dead. Alternately, if it ONLY gets freaks, it can't do much
either (as the only actions you can do without cards are pretty much
hunt and bleed).

Three, it can die if the opponent has a good hand. Basically the
strategy here is to first equip everything you can and hire all the
retainers you can, then attack the enemy minions with direct attacks
(torporizing or at least tapping them), and then bleed for a lot. If
the enemy can withstand the attacks (which only takes a handful of
dodges, S:CEs or fortitude) - or even worse, torporize Una (agg damage
won't do the trick most likely as she has plenty of maneuvers and
damage prevention, but things like Coma would work) - the cycle stops,
and doesn't start again easily.

I do think its a powerful deck, IF it starts to run smoothly, and the
above three things do not come up. However, I also think that a sign
of a good deck is the ability to recover from a bad situation, and
that's something this deck lacks in a major way. Once Una goes to
torpor, its very unlikely she'll ever make it back out. If the player
gets a bad draw, he's gonna get eaten alive before he can discard
himself into better cards. Since there are so few direct attack cards,
Una can also be stopped by a good hand of defensive combat, and once
those rushes are gone, there's little she can do but bleed once per
turn and get blocked.

It IS a nasty deck though. ;) 

More about : hammered una deck

Anonymous
June 26, 2005 6:04:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

NorthSaber wrote:
> One, it's a one-man-show (or a one-woman-show, haven't seen the
> vampire), and is vulnerable to all kinds of nastiness targeting
> single, powerful vamps. Still, rarely do those come up in your first
> few turns or are doable right then and there... So I wouldn't want to
> start as Una's prey.

True.

> Two, it can die from a bad shuffle or draw. If for some reason, the
> deck only gets a few freaks in the first 3-5 rounds of the game, it's
> pretty dead.

That's pretty unlikely. Half the deck is freaks.

> Alternately, if it ONLY gets freaks, it can't do much
> either (as the only actions you can do without cards are pretty much
> hunt and bleed).

That happens but it is unimportant. I watched Dennis get a glut of
freaks and he just hunted, freaked, hunted, freaked, until he got
something useful.

> Three, it can die if the opponent has a good hand.

Certainly. Pred or Prey can do the job.

-Robert
Anonymous
June 26, 2005 8:49:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Think about what we're saying.

There's no such thing as a bad draw. Almost 2/3rds of the deck is
Freak, so you'll never draw a starting hand without a couple. If you
get all Freaks, hunt them away and you'll get the other stuff. Dennis
hunted 8 straight times in our game. Forget any hand-jam
considerations - they don't exist.

Yeah, if you opponents punk Una before, or in the first action then
you're stuck. But this is admitedly a blaze-design deck - and it
either goes off or not. When it does, it very difficult to stop.

For the solutions you propose, the options are pretty limited. You
can't dodge environmental agg damage (ghoul retainer + ivory bow), nor
can use use many common prevention cards that rely on preventing
strikes. You can't play presence-based S:CE, nor can you play Coma
(Blessing of Chaos). Yeah, there are other S:CE and damage prevents,
but Dennis was effective in minimizing the number of available options
- it's just tough to see that at first glance. And you better have
several of them in hand, cause he'll rush 5 times in his opening
gambit.

There is insidious strength in this deck - after it gets tooled up.
Related resources
Anonymous
June 27, 2005 1:14:22 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Darby Keeney wrote:

> There's no such thing as a bad draw. Almost 2/3rds of the deck is
> Freak, so you'll never draw a starting hand without a couple.

Sure, but an opening hand of nothing but Freaks means you have to take a few
actions that are like "hunt, Freak, hunt, Freak...", and if you get blocked
on one of those (and hunting 4 times in a row with Una is likely to yell out
"block me soon or never!"), you have zero defense--your whole deck strategy
is revolving around a +1 stealth action when you have zero combat defense
other than permanents--it is pretty easy to get blocked on your first action
and killed right off.


Peter D Bakija
pdb6@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

"So in conclusion, our business plan is to sell hot,
easily spilled liquids to naked people."
-Brittni Meil
Anonymous
June 27, 2005 10:36:50 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Peter D Bakija <pdb6@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:<BEE4CB2D.20478%pdb6@lightlink.com>...
> Darby Keeney wrote:
> Sure, but an opening hand of nothing but Freaks means you have to take a few
> actions that are like "hunt, Freak, hunt, Freak...", and if you get blocked

To me it seems like that NRA is fine for hunt, but I don't think a
vampire should be able to hunt when at full blood. That would stop
this deck from burning extra Freaks to get a better hand.
Anonymous
June 27, 2005 2:54:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Peter D Bakija wrote:

> -You have a very teniously and sketchily set up Kyoko Shinsegawa strategy
> going. If you can set this up and not get immediately ousted, more power to
> you.

You mean Kyoko hunts off someone, Freaks, hunts off someone else, etc?
I'm sure that would be a popular strategy (see Cryptic Mission, except
Kyoko doesn't need a card for it) if it were legal. Her hunt action is
granted by a card in play (herself) and subject to NRA.

Matt Morgan
Anonymous
June 27, 2005 3:08:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Jeroen Rombouts wrote:

>
> "Matthew T. Morgan" <farquar@io.com> schreef in bericht
> news:20050627105235.V50072@fnord.io.com...
>> On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Peter D Bakija wrote:
>>
>>> -You have a very teniously and sketchily set up Kyoko Shinsegawa strategy
>>> going. If you can set this up and not get immediately ousted, more power
>>> to
>>> you.
>>
>> You mean Kyoko hunts off someone, Freaks, hunts off someone else, etc? I'm
>> sure that would be a popular strategy (see Cryptic Mission, except Kyoko
>> doesn't need a card for it) if it were legal. Her hunt action is granted
>> by a card in play (herself) and subject to NRA.
>>
> I think he knows that :)  He was talking about the fact that kyoko wouldn't
> been able to hunt while full if you changed NRA.

She can't anyway (unless of course she can gain all the blood she needs
in one hunt). Kyoko can't perform the normal cardless hunt action.

Matt Morgan
Anonymous
June 27, 2005 3:13:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

NorthSaber wrote:

> To me it seems like that NRA is fine for hunt, but I don't think a
> vampire should be able to hunt when at full blood. That would stop
> this deck from burning extra Freaks to get a better hand.

Yeah, I'm not seeing this particular deck as a need to change the NRA
rules--other than this deck (and in the case of this deck, it is only
arguably problematic), hunting while full is hardly a problem at all. It
only ever comes up, generally speaking, in the following situations:

-You have a hand full of Freak Drives (in a non Una abuse deck) and want to
fish for something useful. For my money, people fishing for something useful
by burning Freak Drives is just fine.

-You have a very teniously and sketchily set up Kyoko Shinsegawa strategy
going. If you can set this up and not get immediately ousted, more power to
you.

-You are playing the "March Halcyon tries to withdraw on Turn 3" deck. Yeah,
this needs shutting down...

If there is a problem that this deck is indicative of (which I am yet to be
convinced of, personally, but that is me), it is a problem with Una that
could easily be tweaked by fixing her without doing collateral damage (say,
change her ability to "Una pays 1 less blood for Fortitude combat cards or
actions" or something.)


Peter D Bakija
pdb6@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

"So in conclusion, our business plan is to sell hot,
easily spilled liquids to naked people."
-Brittni Meil
Anonymous
June 27, 2005 5:53:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Darby Keeney" <darby.keeney@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:1119829750.437387.252600@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Think about what we're saying.
>
> There's no such thing as a bad draw.

yes there is. Because of non redundancy in the cards it possible that the
ivory bow is in the last 5 cards of his deck. Making the rushes a non
playable (well, very inefficent in any case) card. no combat also means you
cannot cycle your for prevent.
Anonymous
June 27, 2005 6:46:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Matthew T. Morgan wrote:

> You mean Kyoko hunts off someone, Freaks, hunts off someone else, etc?
> I'm sure that would be a popular strategy (see Cryptic Mission, except
> Kyoko doesn't need a card for it) if it were legal. Her hunt action is
> granted by a card in play (herself) and subject to NRA.

Yeah, that was likely what I meant, and then not paying attention that it
wasn't legal. Making it even less desireable to change the NRA rules.


Peter D Bakija
pdb6@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

"So in conclusion, our business plan is to sell hot,
easily spilled liquids to naked people."
-Brittni Meil
Anonymous
June 27, 2005 7:21:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

LSJ wrote:
> Peter D Bakija wrote:
> > If there is a problem that this deck is indicative of (which I am yet to be
> > convinced of, personally, but that is me), it is a problem with Una that
> > could easily be tweaked by fixing her without doing collateral damage (say,
> > change her ability to "Una pays 1 less blood for Fortitude combat cards or
> > actions" or something.)
>
> If there's a problem here, I doubt if it's Una. It's either Freak's
> in-turn repeatability or hunt's in-turn repeatability.

Just limit the number of actions a minion can take by their capacity...
Seems reasonable to me. Makes fatties 'better'.

~SV
Anonymous
June 27, 2005 8:01:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Matthew T. Morgan" <farquar@io.com> schreef in bericht
news:20050627105235.V50072@fnord.io.com...
> On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Peter D Bakija wrote:
>
>> -You have a very teniously and sketchily set up Kyoko Shinsegawa strategy
>> going. If you can set this up and not get immediately ousted, more power
>> to
>> you.
>
> You mean Kyoko hunts off someone, Freaks, hunts off someone else, etc? I'm
> sure that would be a popular strategy (see Cryptic Mission, except Kyoko
> doesn't need a card for it) if it were legal. Her hunt action is granted
> by a card in play (herself) and subject to NRA.
>
I think he knows that :)  He was talking about the fact that kyoko wouldn't
been able to hunt while full if you changed NRA.
Anonymous
June 27, 2005 8:01:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Jeroen Rombouts wrote:

> I think he knows that :)  He was talking about the fact that kyoko wouldn't
> been able to hunt while full if you changed NRA.

Oh. Uh, yeah. That's it. That's what I meant all along...


Peter D Bakija
pdb6@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

"So in conclusion, our business plan is to sell hot,
easily spilled liquids to naked people."
-Brittni Meil
Anonymous
June 27, 2005 8:26:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

What problem is there? If this were an unbeatable, or nearly unbeatable
deck, that would be one thing (something would be "broken"), but it
isn't. In fact, it sounds fragile and hard to play well. Probably
requires a good deal of skill *and* luck.

We already have a long list of things that would stop this deck dead
even if you weren't specifically prepared for it. It's still brilliant
and spectacular, and congrats to the creator, but if it swept up
tables, it was probably due more to shock value than anything.

Super-equipped Una rushes? I prevent one (aggravated) damage from the
Ivory Bow. Press? I prevent again. If she struck me at short range, she
just rushed for 4 non-aggravated damage. I'm more afraid of your
average Brujah or Assamite.

Come to think of it, how would she deal with Assamites, or Tremere?

It's a very clever trick, but it doesn't "break" anything, and it
doesn't demonstrate a need to change any rules.
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 1:58:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Peter D Bakija wrote:
> If there is a problem that this deck is indicative of (which I am yet to be
> convinced of, personally, but that is me), it is a problem with Una that
> could easily be tweaked by fixing her without doing collateral damage (say,
> change her ability to "Una pays 1 less blood for Fortitude combat cards or
> actions" or something.)

If there's a problem here, I doubt if it's Una. It's either Freak's
in-turn repeatability or hunt's in-turn repeatability.

--
LSJ (vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 6:39:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:13:20 -0400, Peter D Bakija
<pdb6@lightlink.com> wrote:

>NorthSaber wrote:
>
>> To me it seems like that NRA is fine for hunt, but I don't think a
>> vampire should be able to hunt when at full blood. That would stop
>> this deck from burning extra Freaks to get a better hand.
>
>Yeah, I'm not seeing this particular deck as a need to change the NRA
>rules--other than this deck (and in the case of this deck, it is only
>arguably problematic), hunting while full is hardly a problem at all. It
>only ever comes up, generally speaking, in the following situations:
>
>-You have a hand full of Freak Drives (in a non Una abuse deck) and want to
>fish for something useful. For my money, people fishing for something useful
>by burning Freak Drives is just fine.
>
>-You have a very teniously and sketchily set up Kyoko Shinsegawa strategy
>going. If you can set this up and not get immediately ousted, more power to
>you.
>
>-You are playing the "March Halcyon tries to withdraw on Turn 3" deck. Yeah,
>this needs shutting down...
>
>If there is a problem that this deck is indicative of (which I am yet to be
>convinced of, personally, but that is me), it is a problem with Una that
>could easily be tweaked by fixing her without doing collateral damage (say,
>change her ability to "Una pays 1 less blood for Fortitude combat cards or
>actions" or something.)

To be fair, there's also Force of Will, for Fortitude bleeds. I've had
to Hunt at capacity to do that in my !Ven deck.

And personally, I'm not real fussed about this deck. Sure, it goes off
'in a big way'. But seriously, aren't there enough other decks that
can do this in their own ways, that makes this less special? Certain
turbo decks. Weenie bleed. Etcetera.

Morgan Vening
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 6:39:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Morgan Vening wrote:

> To be fair, there's also Force of Will, for Fortitude bleeds. I've had
> to Hunt at capacity to do that in my !Ven deck.

And ya think that the rules need to be tweaked so that you can't hunt if at
capacity to prevent folks from using Force of Will?


Peter D Bakija
pdb6@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

"So in conclusion, our business plan is to sell hot,
easily spilled liquids to naked people."
-Brittni Meil
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 7:32:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

LSJ schrieb:
> Peter D Bakija wrote:
> > If there is a problem that this deck is indicative of (which I am yet to be
> > convinced of, personally, but that is me), it is a problem with Una that
> > could easily be tweaked by fixing her without doing collateral damage (say,
> > change her ability to "Una pays 1 less blood for Fortitude combat cards or
> > actions" or something.)
>
> If there's a problem here, I doubt if it's Una. It's either Freak's
> in-turn repeatability or hunt's in-turn repeatability.

Nit-pick:
Used to be nigh impossible to accumulate this amount of Freak Drives
before its rarity changed from R to U ...
Not totally impossible, I know. But still.

Sigh! Those were the days ...

Alf
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 12:18:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Peter D Bakija wrote:
> LSJ wrote:
>
> > If there's a problem here, I doubt if it's Una. It's either Freak's
> > in-turn repeatability or hunt's in-turn repeatability.
>
> Ya think? Like, Freak Drive has been around forever, and while it was
> certainly a problem pre-NRA, post NRA it hasn't been a problem at all, and
> is only a problem now due to Una.

Yeah, but when you look at other vamps with the same special (with a
different skill) they aren't broken. As well, there are tons of cards
that can be put in play and that create a somewhat similar effect
(paths, for example) and none of those are very impressive either. So
while Una hasn't existed until now, the "vampire that pays 1 less for
Discipline X" has been around for a long time and there isn't anything
inherently wrong with it...until it interacts with Freak Drive.

-Robert
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 12:19:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Peter D Bakija schrieb:
> .. --anyone could
> already do this, but without the free play ability of Una, packing a deck
> with 53 Freaks has never been really worth the effort.

Every Vampire equipped with Ankara Citadel and FOR like say Cardano,
or Mata Hari could have done the trick before Una.

Nothing too new here, just less set up needed.

Alf
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 12:33:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

LSJ wrote:

> If there's a problem here, I doubt if it's Una. It's either Freak's
> in-turn repeatability or hunt's in-turn repeatability.

Ya think? Like, Freak Drive has been around forever, and while it was
certainly a problem pre-NRA, post NRA it hasn't been a problem at all, and
is only a problem now due to Una. And the hunting in-turn repeatability has
only ever been a problem in the context of Una being able to cycle an
infinite number of Freak Drives to find something useful--anyone could
already do this, but without the free play ability of Una, packing a deck
with 53 Freaks has never been really worth the effort.

I mean, like, yeah, tweaking either Freak or hunting certainly could be an
option, but that would have a much bigger effect that isn't necessarily
warranted than tweaking Una.


Peter D Bakija
pdb6@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

"So in conclusion, our business plan is to sell hot,
easily spilled liquids to naked people."
-Brittni Meil
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 12:37:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Even if they tweak una some tremere or mata hari can equip with Ankara
Citadel, Turkey, I don't think that restricting the actions would be
wise, anyway, it's fun to do those kind of things, i don't know anyone
that own at least 30 freakdrives.
Maybe a solution would be adding the option in the rated CONSTRUCTED
tournaments of a card limit, i think that based in the consensum of the
playgroup maybe it would be good to add a limit of 10 of the same cards
(or even 4). Basically, let the group choose in what kind of tournament
they wanna play.
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 12:53:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

A.J.Behrends wrote:
> LSJ schrieb:
> > Peter D Bakija wrote:
> > > If there is a problem that this deck is indicative of (which I am yet to be
> > > convinced of, personally, but that is me), it is a problem with Una that
> > > could easily be tweaked by fixing her without doing collateral damage (say,
> > > change her ability to "Una pays 1 less blood for Fortitude combat cards or
> > > actions" or something.)
> >
> > If there's a problem here, I doubt if it's Una. It's either Freak's
> > in-turn repeatability or hunt's in-turn repeatability.
>
> Nit-pick:
> Used to be nigh impossible to accumulate this amount of Freak Drives
> before its rarity changed from R to U ...
> Not totally impossible, I know. But still.
>
> Sigh! Those were the days ...

Yeah, back in the good ol' days when the number of actions per turn
your minions would take would correlate with your income level. Ah,
yes, those were the days... :) 

-Robert
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 1:33:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005, Daneel wrote:

> Come to think of it, what happened to the rule stating you cannot hunt at
> capacity? That rule would mostly make this kind of trick deck unusable
> (if it's a problem at all), and it kind of made sense anyway.

Actually, no. If you look at the RPG, there are numerous examples of
vampire gluttons who hunt despite being full (at capacity).

If vampires hunting while at capacity really bothers you, just play
Restricted Vitae. Then they won't.

Matt Morgan
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 2:10:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Daneel wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:58:21 GMT, LSJ <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
> wrote:
>
> > If there's a problem here, I doubt if it's Una. It's either Freak's
> > in-turn repeatability or hunt's in-turn repeatability.
>
> Come to think of it, what happened to the rule stating you cannot hunt at
> capacity? That rule would mostly make this kind of trick deck unusable
> (if it's a problem at all), and it kind of made sense anyway.

I'd guess that the rule was dropped because it is uneccessary
complexity (doesn't add anything to the game and isn't needed for
balance).

-Robert
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 3:52:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

bjornstein@yahoo.com wrote:
> What problem is there? If this were an unbeatable, or nearly unbeatable
> deck, that would be one thing (something would be "broken"), but it
> isn't. In fact, it sounds fragile and hard to play well. Probably
> requires a good deal of skill *and* luck.
>
> It's a very clever trick, but it doesn't "break" anything, and it
> doesn't demonstrate a need to change any rules.

Now that I've had a few days to let the shock dissapate, I'm afraid I
have to agree with you. The particular game I was in, I was not ready
to stop Una so soon. Either was his predator. Next time I hope I'm
playing my Intercept/Horrid Form Deck. Una won't stand a chance. Still
I find myself questioning if a vamp that pays one less for For. is
"good" for the game. I suspect that in the long run it won't mattter
much.


***JediMike***
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 3:54:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

more like a 55 gallon drum of worms!

***JediMike***
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 4:14:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005, Daneel wrote:

> On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:33:50 -0500, Matthew T. Morgan <farquar@io.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 28 Jun 2005, Daneel wrote:
>>
>>> Come to think of it, what happened to the rule stating you cannot hunt at
>>> capacity? That rule would mostly make this kind of trick deck unusable
>>> (if it's a problem at all), and it kind of made sense anyway.
>>
>> Actually, no. If you look at the RPG, there are numerous examples of
>> vampire gluttons who hunt despite being full (at capacity).
>
> I believe there are cards representing that sort of gluttony.

Thanks for the non-sequitor. The point is the RPG supports the idea that
vampires can feed when they don't need to.

>> If vampires hunting while at capacity really bothers you, just play
>> Restricted Vitae. Then they won't.
>
> You seem to miss the point.

No. I just nailed it. See above.

Matt Morgan
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 4:23:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:48:04 -0400, Peter D Bakija
<pdb6@lightlink.com> wrote:

>Morgan Vening wrote:
>
>> To be fair, there's also Force of Will, for Fortitude bleeds. I've had
>> to Hunt at capacity to do that in my !Ven deck.
>
>And ya think that the rules need to be tweaked so that you can't hunt if at
>capacity to prevent folks from using Force of Will?

Nope. Sorry, I had just finished a 16 hour shift, and was winding
down. There should have been no "To be fair" part. Sounds snooty. It
should have been "In addition, here's another reason why I don't think
a 'cant hunt at capacity' ruling would be bad".

Morgan Vening
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 4:23:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Morgan Vening wrote:

> Nope. Sorry, I had just finished a 16 hour shift, and was winding
> down. There should have been no "To be fair" part. Sounds snooty. It
> should have been "In addition, here's another reason why I don't think
> a 'cant hunt at capacity' ruling would be bad".

Heh heh :-)


Peter D Bakija
pdb6@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

"So in conclusion, our business plan is to sell hot,
easily spilled liquids to naked people."
-Brittni Meil
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 5:14:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

***JediMike*** wrote:
> Still I find myself questioning if a vamp that pays one less for
> For. is "good" for the game. I suspect that in the long run it
> won't mattter much.

Funny that you mention your Tzimisce deck as a counter to the Una deck
and wonder whether Una's special is "good for the game". You are
familiar with Meshenka's special, right? ;) 

Una clearly isn't the problem. I've narrowed the root problem down to
a toss-up between Freak Drive or Dennis Lien. I'm currently leaning
toward Dennis.

-Robert
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 6:50:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005, David Zopf wrote:

>> If a deck
>> like this one is a problem, I think reinstalling that rule would still be
>> the best solution.
>>
> Yeah, but it isn't. At least, its no greater a problem than Cardano with
> Ankara Citadel has been since Ancient Hearts... I agree, though, that it
> must have been quite a shock for the unprepared, the first time Una went
> supercritical... Thanks out to Jedi Mike for pointing out the tactic.

Agreed. Jason Babbit used to run a deck where Cardano or Ulugh Beg would
get the Citadel and Govern down, Freak, Fourth Tradition every turn. Nice
trick and very strong if nobody had intercept, but there are plenty of
ways to stop it.

Matt Morgan
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 6:52:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Peter D Bakija wrote:
> ...Freak Drive has been around forever, and while it was
> certainly a problem pre-NRA, post NRA it hasn't been a problem at all, and
> is only a problem now due to Una. And the hunting in-turn repeatability has
> only ever been a problem in the context of Una being able to cycle an
> infinite number of Freak Drives to find something useful....

Another deck that gets an inordinate advantage from Freak + repeatable
hunts is the Rabbat bloat deck. Use the Hungry Coyote or Aaron's
Feeding Razor to allow Rabbat to hunt for 2, then hunt-Freak-repeat
until you're out of Freaks. Each hunt gains you a pool...and Rabbat's
no fun to block.
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 7:03:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:58:21 GMT, LSJ <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
wrote:

> Peter D Bakija wrote:
>> If there is a problem that this deck is indicative of (which I am yet
>> to be
>> convinced of, personally, but that is me), it is a problem with Una that
>> could easily be tweaked by fixing her without doing collateral damage
>> (say,
>> change her ability to "Una pays 1 less blood for Fortitude combat cards
>> or
>> actions" or something.)
>
> If there's a problem here, I doubt if it's Una. It's either Freak's
> in-turn repeatability or hunt's in-turn repeatability.

Come to think of it, what happened to the rule stating you cannot hunt at
capacity? That rule would mostly make this kind of trick deck unusable
(if it's a problem at all), and it kind of made sense anyway.

--
Bye,

Daneel
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 7:54:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Omael" <omael.rangel@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:1119973034.215831.72700@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Even if they tweak una some tremere or mata hari can equip with Ankara
> Citadel, Turkey, I don't think that restricting the actions would be
> wise, anyway, it's fun to do those kind of things, i don't know anyone
> that own at least 30 freakdrives.
> Maybe a solution would be adding the option in the rated CONSTRUCTED
> tournaments of a card limit, i think that based in the consensum of the
> playgroup maybe it would be good to add a limit of 10 of the same cards
> (or even 4). Basically, let the group choose in what kind of tournament
> they wanna play.
>
not that again :-s
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 8:03:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Robert Goudie wrote:
> ***JediMike*** wrote:
> > Still I find myself questioning if a vamp that pays one less for
> > For. is "good" for the game. I suspect that in the long run it
> > won't mattter much.
>
> Funny that you mention your Tzimisce deck as a counter to the Una deck
> and wonder whether Una's special is "good for the game". You are
> familiar with Meshenka's special, right? ;) 
>
> Una clearly isn't the problem. I've narrowed the root problem down to
> a toss-up between Freak Drive or Dennis Lien. I'm currently leaning
> toward Dennis.
>
> -Robert

My vote is for banning Dennis! :)  Seriously, there is a huge difference
between throwing 5 or 6 Horrid Forms (of 18) in a combat vs. 53 Freak
Drives in one single turn. As nasty as my Tzimisce deck can be, I often
DON'T have the goods. What Una can do is....well....INSANE! If a fix
needs to be made (and thats a BIG if) I would not want to be the one to
decide which "link" in the chain is the culprit. Still, I own 47 Freaks
and it makes me think....hmmmmm.

***JediMike***
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 8:07:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Robert Goudie wrote:
>
> Una clearly isn't the problem. I've narrowed the root problem down to
> a toss-up between Freak Drive or Dennis Lien. I'm currently leaning
> toward Dennis.
>
> -Robert

Banning Dennis won't help. There are plenty of other people crazy
enough to come up with more Turbo decks. Plus, if you banned Dennis,
you'd have to ban Legbiter for his contributions to Turbo Baron, and we
don't want to see Leggy banned.

JediMike & Dennis,
Thanks for finding the perfect vampire for my vamp gets Soul Gem,
Freaks, plays Dual Form, Dual Form plays Force of Will, vamp with Soul
Gem burns, get free full vampire, and then Possession original vamp
back into play and rinse and repeat as needed. Oh, its fragile, but it
will be a good time if no one can block.

Later,
~Rehlow
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 8:10:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Always a pleasure to get slaughtered for the masses! :)  Anyone know
how to get to some place called "The Gallows" ?

***JediMike***
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 9:27:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Jeroen Rombouts" <jeroen.rombouts@NOSPAMtelenet.be> wrote in message
news:Joewe.132309$nd5.7049355@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>
> "Omael" <omael.rangel@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
> news:1119973034.215831.72700@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>> Even if they tweak una some tremere or mata hari can equip with Ankara
>> Citadel, Turkey, I don't think that restricting the actions would be
>> wise, anyway, it's fun to do those kind of things, i don't know anyone
>> that own at least 30 freakdrives.
>> Maybe a solution would be adding the option in the rated CONSTRUCTED
>> tournaments of a card limit, i think that based in the consensum of the
>> playgroup maybe it would be good to add a limit of 10 of the same cards
>> (or even 4). Basically, let the group choose in what kind of tournament
>> they wanna play.
>>
> not that again :-s

You've got to forgive him. I'm sure he doesn't know the can of worms that
he's opening. :-)

DaveZ
Atom Weaver
(else, he does, and the post is just a goad...)
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 9:29:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

***JediMike*** wrote:
> Robert Goudie wrote:
> > ***JediMike*** wrote:
> > > Still I find myself questioning if a vamp that pays one less for
> > > For. is "good" for the game. I suspect that in the long run it
> > > won't mattter much.
> >
> > Funny that you mention your Tzimisce deck as a counter to the Una deck
> > and wonder whether Una's special is "good for the game". You are
> > familiar with Meshenka's special, right? ;) 
> >
> > Una clearly isn't the problem. I've narrowed the root problem down to
> > a toss-up between Freak Drive or Dennis Lien. I'm currently leaning
> > toward Dennis.
> >
> > -Robert
>
> My vote is for banning Dennis! :)  Seriously, there is a huge difference
> between throwing 5 or 6 Horrid Forms (of 18) in a combat vs. 53 Freak
> Drives in one single turn.

Exactly. But notice that in the description of the differences, you are
discussing Horrid Form and Freak Drive and not the difference between
Una and Meshenka ('cause there ain't none!).

-Robert
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 10:01:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Matthew T. Morgan wrote:

> Agreed. Jason Babbit used to run a deck where Cardano or Ulugh Beg
> would get the Citadel and Govern down, Freak, Fourth Tradition every
> turn. Nice trick and very strong if nobody had intercept, but there are
> plenty of ways to stop it.

I think there may be a qualitative shift when you go from sixteen Freak
Drives to, like, fifty.

--

David Cherryholmes
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 10:35:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:33:50 -0500, Matthew T. Morgan <farquar@io.com>
wrote:

> On Tue, 28 Jun 2005, Daneel wrote:
>
>> Come to think of it, what happened to the rule stating you cannot hunt
>> at
>> capacity? That rule would mostly make this kind of trick deck unusable
>> (if it's a problem at all), and it kind of made sense anyway.
>
> Actually, no. If you look at the RPG, there are numerous examples of
> vampire gluttons who hunt despite being full (at capacity).

I believe there are cards representing that sort of gluttony.

> If vampires hunting while at capacity really bothers you, just play
> Restricted Vitae. Then they won't.

You seem to miss the point.

--
Bye,

Daneel
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 1:14:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On 28 Jun 2005 10:10:03 -0700, Robert Goudie <robertg@vtesinla.org> wrote:

> Daneel wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:58:21 GMT, LSJ <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > If there's a problem here, I doubt if it's Una. It's either Freak's
>> > in-turn repeatability or hunt's in-turn repeatability.
>>
>> Come to think of it, what happened to the rule stating you cannot hunt
>> at
>> capacity? That rule would mostly make this kind of trick deck unusable
>> (if it's a problem at all), and it kind of made sense anyway.
>
> I'd guess that the rule was dropped because it is uneccessary
> complexity (doesn't add anything to the game and isn't needed for
> balance).

Well, given how you wouldn't normally want to hunt at capacity unless
you were playing a trick deck, I'm not sure about that. The vast majority
of decks don't really care whether the rule is in place or not. If a deck
like this one is a problem, I think reinstalling that rule would still be
the best solution.

--
Bye,

Daneel
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 1:14:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Daneel" <daniel@eposta.hu> wrote in message
news:o pss3g2b0ro6j3lh@news.chello.hu...
> On 28 Jun 2005 10:10:03 -0700, Robert Goudie <robertg@vtesinla.org> wrote:
>
>> Daneel wrote:
>>> On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:58:21 GMT, LSJ <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > If there's a problem here, I doubt if it's Una. It's either Freak's
>>> > in-turn repeatability or hunt's in-turn repeatability.
>>>
>>> Come to think of it, what happened to the rule stating you cannot hunt
>>> at
>>> capacity? That rule would mostly make this kind of trick deck unusable
>>> (if it's a problem at all), and it kind of made sense anyway.
>>
>> I'd guess that the rule was dropped because it is uneccessary
>> complexity (doesn't add anything to the game and isn't needed for
>> balance).
>
> Well, given how you wouldn't normally want to hunt at capacity unless
> you were playing a trick deck, I'm not sure about that. The vast majority
> of decks don't really care whether the rule is in place or not.

I think that is an fairly accurate indication (definition, even?) of an
"unnecessary complexity"...

> If a deck
> like this one is a problem, I think reinstalling that rule would still be
> the best solution.
>
Yeah, but it isn't. At least, its no greater a problem than Cardano with
Ankara Citadel has been since Ancient Hearts... I agree, though, that it
must have been quite a shock for the unprepared, the first time Una went
supercritical... Thanks out to Jedi Mike for pointing out the tactic.

DZ
AW
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 1:15:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Peter D Bakija wrote:
> LSJ wrote:
>
>
>>If there's a problem here, I doubt if it's Una. It's either Freak's
>>in-turn repeatability or hunt's in-turn repeatability.
>
> Ya think?

Yes.

> Like, Freak Drive has been around forever, and while it was
> certainly a problem pre-NRA, post NRA it hasn't been a problem at all, and
> is only a problem now due to Una. And the hunting in-turn repeatability has
> only ever been a problem in the context of Una being able to cycle an
> infinite number of Freak Drives to find something useful--anyone could
> already do this, but without the free play ability of Una, packing a deck
> with 53 Freaks has never been really worth the effort.

Which doesn't really address the issue of which link in the chain is
the offending one (assuming there's any offense at all).

That the chain has only now been completed is not material to determining
which link is the crux.

How many cards untap the acting minion?
How many of those can untap the same acting minion more than once in a turn?

How many actions can be repeated?
How many of those are cardless?

(Note: I don't think repeat hunting is the link of interest. I included
it only because it is the link whose adjustment would be the easiest to
swallow. Assuming any adjustment is warranted, of course.)

> I mean, like, yeah, tweaking either Freak or hunting certainly could be an
> option, but that would have a much bigger effect that isn't necessarily
> warranted than tweaking Una.

Limiting repeat hunting would not have a much bigger effect than fixing Una.
Limited repeat Freaks have a bigger effect, sure. But that's why it would
only be done if it was warranted.
I never suggested making an unwarranted change to Freak.
If Freak is the problem, then changing it is warranted, by definition.

--
LSJ (vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 1:23:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Daneel wrote:
> Come to think of it, what happened to the rule stating you cannot hunt at
> capacity? That rule would mostly make this kind of trick deck unusable
> (if it's a problem at all), and it kind of made sense anyway.

The original rules did not prohibit at-capacity hunting.
It was added in 1995. It was subsequently reset in 1998.

Allowing hunting at capacity makes sense, since vampires can.

--
LSJ (vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 3:54:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:23:17 GMT, LSJ <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
wrote:

> Daneel wrote:
>> Come to think of it, what happened to the rule stating you cannot hunt
>> at
>> capacity? That rule would mostly make this kind of trick deck unusable
>> (if it's a problem at all), and it kind of made sense anyway.
>
> The original rules did not prohibit at-capacity hunting.
> It was added in 1995. It was subsequently reset in 1998.
>
> Allowing hunting at capacity makes sense, since vampires can.

I think that while vampires who are freshly fed can technically hunt
according to the source material, they seldom do so (except for special
cases). Hence it would make sense that in VTES they can not do it without
a special card or effect. I mean, a vampire of the source material can
choose to go and see the sunrise for the last time (which they often do
in their angst-ridden melancholy), yet in VTES I can't just say "Okay,
my famous Marlene ends her own life." without providing for a special
circumstance to back that up (like, playing Daring the Dawn).

Not that it would matter much, I just felt like pointing that out.

--
Bye,

Daneel
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 9:38:22 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Rehlow" <newsgroup@rehlow.com> wrote in message news:<1120000046.960827.189230@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>...
> Robert Goudie wrote:
> >
> > Una clearly isn't the problem. I've narrowed the root problem down to
> > a toss-up between Freak Drive or Dennis Lien. I'm currently leaning
> > toward Dennis.
> >
> > -Robert
>
> Banning Dennis won't help. There are plenty of other people crazy
> enough to come up with more Turbo decks. Plus, if you banned Dennis,
> you'd have to ban Legbiter for his contributions to Turbo Baron, and we
> don't want to see Leggy banned.
>
> JediMike & Dennis,
> Thanks for finding the perfect vampire for my vamp gets Soul Gem,
> Freaks, plays Dual Form, Dual Form plays Force of Will, vamp with Soul
> Gem burns, get free full vampire, and then Possession original vamp
> back into play and rinse and repeat as needed. Oh, its fragile, but it
> will be a good time if no one can block.

very difficult, because DualForm lowers your capacity,...you will
never be certain you get the good vampire,...or you need to find a way
to get +2capacity in your turbocycle,..
W
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 12:36:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Omael wrote:

> Maybe a solution would be adding the option in the rated CONSTRUCTED
> tournaments of a card limit,

Oh just stop now.


Peter D Bakija
pdb6@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

"So in conclusion, our business plan is to sell hot,
easily spilled liquids to naked people."
-Brittni Meil
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 4:34:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Rehlow" <newsgroup@rehlow.com> schreef in bericht
news:1120000046.960827.189230@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
> JediMike & Dennis,
> Thanks for finding the perfect vampire for my vamp gets Soul Gem,
> Freaks, plays Dual Form, Dual Form plays Force of Will, vamp with Soul
> Gem burns, get free full vampire, and then Possession original vamp
> back into play and rinse and repeat as needed. Oh, its fragile, but it
> will be a good time if no one can block.
>
How do you plan on fishing for Una? you can't put more than 1 in your
crypt, esp. because of the cap decrease of Dual form.

also: possesion only gives you a new Una with 1 blood. so no more Dual
form.
!