Any chance for Nvidia?

juvi · Apr 24, 2003

It seems that ATI has a decent lead from Nvidia for a while now. (Well, a few months anyway.) And I haven't read/seen/heard of anything ground-breaking from Nvidia. (Then again, I don't go around looking for news like that much.

) I was wondering, is there any chance that Nvidia will become the lead graphics card manufacturer? By that, I mean having the best video card for casual gamers.

Any (Well-constructed) comments are appreciated,

Thanks. ^_^

Twitch · Apr 24, 2003

Sure, anything's possible. nVidia didn't get where they are by being stupid. I think they underestimated ATI, and they've fallen behind.

I think NV35 will be a much, much better product than NV30. Will it beat 9800 PRO? Impossible to say for sure, but from what I've read, it should be very competitive. Of course, that only helps nVidia at the high-end, and doesn't really fix their problems at the mainstream level or at the budget level.

All NV30 and NV31 products disappear from nVidia's roadmap by the end of the year, meaning nVidia is doing the smart thing and dumping that series as quickly as possible. Unless ATI releases R400 before the end of the year, nVidia should definitely recapture the performance crown with NV40 around November-December.

Of course, this is all assuming nVidia can execute its roadmap. They've always been able to execute their product releases until the last year or so. So we'll see. I think they will benefit greatly from their relationship with IBM on the high-end.

That's just my opinion, based on reading heaps of rumors, spec-sheets, professed benchmarks, and expert speculation. We won't know for sure, of course, until some of these products are actually released.

The Netherlands is where you go when you're too good for heaven. :tongue:

TheGreatGrapeApe · Apr 24, 2003

Nothing is set in stone; the NV35 or NV40 could win back the title for TOP marks, as for mid-level or as you put it the 'casual gamer' we may not see that for a while. Their current offerings pale in comparison to the ATI products, and I doubt there will be as quick a refresh for the 5600 and 5200 as there will be for their top cards. However their replacement cards for the 5200&5600 may just best the next ati mid-range card. No one knows. But for now, the answer is no.
The other thing is you may see a 3rd party enter the fray in a competitive way, the likes of Creative, Sis or maybe even Matrox (although I think Matrox prefers their quality market); this would make it more interesting, and also benifit the consumer in the long run.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! RED GREEN :tongue: GA to SK

hineigger · Apr 24, 2003

Nvidia is still in there.

Remember, the fastest cards dont matter in the real world. The majority of people buy the middle line cards.

Nvidia's Ti series gets cheaper and cheaper, and the slower FX's are even under $100.

Im not saying Ati cant match it, but Nvidia is no where near having "no chance".

TheGreatGrapeApe · Apr 24, 2003

I agree on the IBM-Nvidia, I think that is a VERY good deal for Nvidia, and likely the best way for them to compete. I can only think of the relationship being a positive one, with the R&D of IBM helping to advance Nvidia's own R&D expenditures. Just worried that it may mean my next thinkpad would come with an underpowered Nvidia mobile chip instead of ATI because of their relationship, bur hopefully IBM isn't willing to lose customers because of what is essentially a better deal for Nvidia. IMO.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! RED GREEN :tongue: GA to SK

GeneticWeapon · Apr 24, 2003

I think Nvidia is going to retake the performance crown. The rest...I dunno.(yes, I said it)

Man who sleeps with sex on mind, wakes with solution in hand.

phial · Apr 24, 2003

i too believe the NV35 will be faster than the 9800pro. i mean, it cant NOT be faster.. considering that Nvidia now knows what they are contending with unlike before.

if they release the NV35 nd its slower than the 9800pro (keep in mind that ATI has a card planned for when Nvidias new card is coming out) then it would be doomed i would say. at least until the next cycle of products are released.. video cards arent their only thing

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TheGreatGrapeApe · Apr 24, 2003

Really the only question is how long Nvidia will wear that crown, a few days like the FX/9800 reversal (did they ever really take it from the 9700?), or will they be able to fend off the releae of ATI's NV35 killer response? Could be interesting, and I'd like to see if the Irish bookey's are taking odds?

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! RED GREEN :tongue: GA to SK

cleeve · Apr 24, 2003

I'm an Ati fan, but I can tell you this: Nvidia will inevitably take the performance crown with the NV35, and keep it for a while.

I'll tell you why:

1) Ati has publically said they're lengthening their development cycle to 24 months. That is a VERY long time in the graphics business.
Nvidia is doing no such thing: they have the revenues they need to put the extra cash into R&D. Nvidia will not rest until they are the performance leaders again, and they have the revenue to do it.

2) Absolutely no info on the R400 lately, did you notice? Looks to me like Ati has decided to start lengthening their product cycle right now. All they have to fight back against the NV35 is maybe a 9800 PRO with DDR2? That won't cut it I think.

But time will tell...

- Cleeve

juvi · Apr 25, 2003

Thanks for the great responses guys. I've never heard of Nvidia's NV35, did Nvidia specify any information about it?

^^;

GeneticWeapon · Apr 25, 2003

Yes, they specified that they wont specify any information about it.

Man who sleeps with sex on mind, wakes with solution in hand.

dhlucke · Apr 25, 2003

I think Nvidia has to worry about a couple things before they get a crown.

1. Their design of the FX was pretty bad. They need to fix it or learn from their mistake. All their talk about how innovative it was really made me lose some faith in them. If they release another overclocked monstrosity, or think they can pull of that vacuum cleaner cooling solution they're in big trouble. Their image quality isn't that great and they appeared willing to fudge the 3dmark tests in order to make their card look better.

2. They haven't put an effort into their drivers. As far as I know they still don't have any good FX drivers out yet.

3. Price. The release price for their top of the line card was absolutely out of control. For the mainstream they're doing ok, but that might be because they can't sell their current cards without selling them dirt cheap. If they have the crown they might be inclined to sell their cards at an outrageous price again.

Everyone should be like the Dutch. They're perfect.

dhlucke · Apr 25, 2003

Lets also consider that it isn't just Nvidia's PR machine that is lousy. Gainward, a company who I really do like, promised a GeForceFX 5800 Ultra at only 7db. That was a big fat lie.

Nvidia and their partners tried everything from cheating to lying to stop people from buying ATI cards. That's foul.

Everyone should be like the Dutch. They're perfect.

Twitch · Apr 25, 2003

If you look at nVidia in a present-moment freeze-frame, all is not Dutch in Dawnland.

ANyway, Nvidia must retake the performance lead. That's all there is to it. If they can't recapture the performance lead with ATI sitting on R400 for another year or more, then they might as well just hand the crown over.

Allow me to peer into my crystal ball for a moment. I think NV35 will be somewhat faster in terms of raw framerates than 9800 PRO in almost everything. However, I predict ATI will still have better image quality, including a superior FSAA and AF implementation. Nvidia will improve this feature somewhat, but a Dutchman can't change his windmill, and an NV35 is a revision (read: a patch) of NV30, not a complete overhaul.

I refuse to disgrace this forum by trying to make predictions about NV40, since that product is totally ethereal at the moment.

Here's a little bit of leaked information regarding NV35.

Mostly the same architecture as NV30.

256-bit memory bus with DDR RAM instead of DDRII.

Improved PS/VS 2.0+ functionality

4 X 2 architecture with 8 X 1 turbo mode (like NV30) for single texturing and with 2 universal floating/integer ALU and two TMU on each pipe. Also this will have twice the width internal register file, and this fact supposedly removes the known NV30 bottleneck and improves the 2.0 shaders performance a lot.

It supposedly is twice as fast in NV30 in some benchmarks, though I'll believe that when I see it.

You see, this is one of the reasons I complained when ATI talked about going to that 24-month product-cycle. I don't see any reason why ATI can't maintain the performance lead if they just try, for Dutch sake.

The Netherlands is where you go when you're too good for heaven. :tongue:

Edited by Twitch on 04/24/03 09:21 PM.

TheGreatGrapeApe · Apr 25, 2003

However the better thing for ATI would be to play possum. If they get expectations up, and release a sub-par core/card simply to meet these 'arbitrary' product cycle numbers, that's terrible. So ATI comes out with a core in the old 18mth timeline, yet the core is crap and appears rushed to all who are familiar with the industry, that doesn't help them at all. IF they lose the top spot for a few months (no greater than 4-6 for this to be 'good') and then recapture it with a good next-gen core, while all Nvidia produces is a revision that doesn't best the new core from ATI, then Ati's strategy is a very cunning one, where they've been able to wring out the most profit and invest the right amount in R&D for a GOOD core, instead of wasting some R&D money on a mediocre core that they have to spend time/money/advertising trying to fix (sound familiar?).
I'm not TOO worried (atually I don't care who's #1 as long as they always feel the need to be there, as does their competition), and I would hope that with the addition of some other player into the market we would see someone snatch the crown BETWEEN Ati and Nvidia,a dn make them redouble their efforts, their competition is too predictable now.
I don't think the NV35 will be as revolutionary anymore (just based on the description [not a GIANT leap]), and it will likely best the 9800 (it pretty much has to as the consensus around here shows), however I don't think it will be revolutionary the way the 9700 and earlier Geforces were. I think the NV40 and the R400 will probably blow our socks off, but I think that the next little while from both ATI and Nvidia will be 'ho-hum' offerings that while performance leaders will not make people say: 'Whoa that's awesome'. I doubt the NV35 or the R9900 will really surprise anyone (except for if they have early/ontime releases), I think that's for the next gen. cards.

I'm still waiting for the P10 Dang-it! Creative where are you ?!?

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! RED GREEN :tongue: GA to SK

shadus · Apr 25, 2003

I think the nv35 will probally beat the 9800 pro by a pretty decent margin... but on the otherside of things, the nv35 is another of the fx gen chips and the 9800 pro is still part of the r300? (9000 series) chips... so neither is really a new generation. The real battle will begin again when the r400 and the nv40 hit the market. This is just trading shots for s&g.

Shadus

TheGreatGrapeApe · Apr 25, 2003

Speaking of which (the R400), check out this article which ends with the statement of the R500 coming out in 2005;

<A HREF="http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20030421S0031" target="_new">http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20030421S0031</A>

So that means that the R400 and 500 coming out in the next 24-32 mths. Seems like less than a 24 mth product cycle to me, depending I guess onwhere you start.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! RED GREEN :tongue: GA to SK

eden · Apr 25, 2003

nVidia currently has major trouble with the lower FX line in China:
<A HREF="http://www.digitimes.com/NewsShow/Article.asp?datePublish=2003/04/25&pages=PR&seq=204" target="_new">http://www.digitimes.com/NewsShow/Article.asp?datePublish=2003/04/25&pages=PR&seq=204</A>

It'll take a lot more than a good product for nVidia now.

--
This post is brought to you by Eden, on a Via Eden, in the garden of Eden.

TheGreatGrapeApe · Apr 27, 2003

Ok, Just for a little pick me up take a look at these links that HardOCP found on Rage3D's discussion forum. Perhaps Nvidia is in trouble? or maybe not;

<A HREF="http://www.hanners.nildram.co.uk/test_1.jpg" target="_new"> Holy Molley!</A>

<A HREF="http://www.hanners.nildram.co.uk/test_2.jpg" target="_new"> 601mhzCore/413mhz(826)mem. Really?</A>

Now just let that sink in for a second and then go see the discussion and the original poster's comments.

<A HREF="http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=33681913" target="_new"> Original Thread, Do you believe? </A>

Now it could be in reality a FireGL X1, but I doubt it, and as someone said it could be Photoshop. Bu t's something new that I thought everyone following/griving a crap about this, would be interested in.

In any case it's interesting, and it would be funny if 3Dmark03 fell so quickly to the ~20K mark, just after they spanked everyone back dow to the low-mid quad digits.

The other gogd question was, Why isn't there a compare link?

I think only time will tell, fact or fiction... you decide (ala unsolved mysteries)

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! RED GREEN :tongue: GA to SK

Any chance for Nvidia?

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