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Wizard + Cleric prestige class

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Anonymous
September 12, 2005 11:13:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Hi!
Is there a good prestige class combo for an elven wiz+cleric?
Thanks in advance,
Nik

--
Diese Signatur wurde von MesNews automatisch erstellt.
Webseite http://www.mesnews.net
Anonymous
September 12, 2005 11:13:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Nikolaus Wagner wrote:
> Hi!
> Is there a good prestige class combo for an elven wiz+cleric?
> Thanks in advance,
> Nik
>

You mean apart from Mystic Theurge and Thaumaturgist?

> --
> Diese Signatur wurde von MesNews automatisch erstellt.
> Webseite http://www.mesnews.net

Aha.
Anonymous
September 12, 2005 11:13:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Nikolaus Wagner wrote:
> Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de wrote :
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Aha :D  !
>
> > Nikolaus Wagner wrote:
> >> Hi!
> >> Is there a good prestige class combo for an elven wiz+cleric?
>
> You mean apart from Mystic Theurge and Thaumaturgist?
> Hm, there must be a hidden flaw in Mystic Theurge.
> Advancing in both classes at once just sound so good.
> Ok, no bonus feats, slower save progression.
> Well, maybe mystic theurge is too weak and it would die soon or start
> healing its own wounds every round.
> Has anyone played a mystic theurge? Any infos on it?
> [snip]

There is no hidden flaw in the mystic theurge. The thing is that in
order to take your first level in it, you must already be a Wiz 3/Clr
3. This means that you gave up 3 levels in each spellcasting class.
In addition, you do not gain bonus feat progressions, and your save
progression isn't as good.
Related resources
Anonymous
September 12, 2005 11:30:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Has anyone actually tried one of these? I think one you got going a
bit it would be quite a potent combo. Toss in one or two of those
feats that raises your caster level and you're all set.
Anonymous
September 13, 2005 12:44:45 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de wrote :
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Aha :D  !

> Nikolaus Wagner wrote:
>> Hi!
>> Is there a good prestige class combo for an elven wiz+cleric?

You mean apart from Mystic Theurge and Thaumaturgist?
Hm, there must be a hidden flaw in Mystic Theurge.
Advancing in both classes at once just sound so good.
Ok, no bonus feats, slower save progression.
Well, maybe mystic theurge is too weak and it would die soon or start
healing its own wounds every round.
Has anyone played a mystic theurge? Any infos on it?

Btw, a nice hypertext version of the srd:
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/classes.htm

Well, maybe there are some nice prestige classes that an elf with both
divine (cleric) and arcane (mage) classes can take without needing to
take a 3rd class. Just like the prestige classes for monks which
emulate multiclassing without incurring multiclassing penalties.


I got a pretty good list of feats
(http://www.devinweb.com/featlisting.htm), containing the info which
book contained them.
I have not found a likewise list for prestige classes so far.

>>--
>>Diese Signatur wurde von MesNews automatisch erstellt.
>>Webseite http://www.mesnews.net

>Aha.
Tja, erwiiischt :-)

--
Yes, Yes, more of the DnD flavor.
MC Beholder on the mike, DJ Mindflayer kicking it massive
Anonymous
September 13, 2005 12:44:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 20:44:45 +0200, Nikolaus Wagner wrote:

> Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de wrote :
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Aha :D  !
>
>> Nikolaus Wagner wrote:
>>> Hi!
>>> Is there a good prestige class combo for an elven wiz+cleric?
>
> You mean apart from Mystic Theurge and Thaumaturgist? Hm, there must be a
> hidden flaw in Mystic Theurge. Advancing in both classes at once just
> sound so good. Ok, no bonus feats, slower save progression. Well, maybe
> mystic theurge is too weak and it would die soon or start healing its own
> wounds every round.
> Has anyone played a mystic theurge? Any infos on it?
>
> Btw, a nice hypertext version of the srd:
> http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/classes.htm
>
> Well, maybe there are some nice prestige classes that an elf with both
> divine (cleric) and arcane (mage) classes can take without needing to take
> a 3rd class. Just like the prestige classes for monks which emulate
> multiclassing without incurring multiclassing penalties.
>
>
> I got a pretty good list of feats
> (http://www.devinweb.com/featlisting.htm), containing the info which book
> contained them.
> I have not found a likewise list for prestige classes so far.
>
>>>--
>>>Diese Signatur wurde von MesNews automatisch erstellt. Webseite
>>>http://www.mesnews.net
>
>>Aha.
> Tja, erwiiischt :-)

The presitge class list found a third of the way down on the attached link
to the WoTC boards appears to be up-to-date or close to it.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1...

Crispus
September 13, 2005 12:56:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de wrote:
> Nikolaus Wagner wrote:
>> Hi!
>> Is there a good prestige class combo for an elven wiz+cleric?
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Nik
>>
>
> You mean apart from Mystic Theurge and Thaumaturgist?

True Necromancer from Libris Mortis
Anonymous
September 13, 2005 2:54:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"WDS" <Bill@seurer.net> wrote in message
news:1126578625.711480.13700@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Has anyone actually tried one of these? I think one you got going a
> bit it would be quite a potent combo. Toss in one or two of those
> feats that raises your caster level and you're all set.

They are great support characters, but are nothing compared to a single
class Wizard of Cleric in any other department.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Anonymous
September 13, 2005 3:00:45 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Crispus wrote:
>
> The presitge class list found a third of the way down on the attached
> link to the WoTC boards appears to be up-to-date or close to it.
>
> http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1...

The one I compiled (linked in my signature) is, I believe, completely up-to-date
except perhaps for the last couple of Dragon Magazines, and includes
prerequisites for those prestige classes published in books.

--
Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia
The geek with roots in Hell!
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/prestigec...
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/templatel...

Who do you blame when your kid is a - brat?
Pampered and spoiled like a Siamese - cat?
Blaming the kids is a lie and a - shame!
You know exactly who's - to - blame:
The mother and the father!
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 2:54:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Crispus wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 20:44:45 +0200, Nikolaus Wagner wrote:
>
>
>>Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de wrote :
>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Aha :D  !
>>
>>
>>>Nikolaus Wagner wrote:
>>>
>>>>Hi!
>>>>Is there a good prestige class combo for an elven wiz+cleric?
>>
>>You mean apart from Mystic Theurge and Thaumaturgist? Hm, there must be a
>>hidden flaw in Mystic Theurge. Advancing in both classes at once just
>>sound so good. Ok, no bonus feats, slower save progression. Well, maybe
>>mystic theurge is too weak and it would die soon or start healing its own
>>wounds every round.
>>Has anyone played a mystic theurge? Any infos on it?
>>
>>Btw, a nice hypertext version of the srd:
>>http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/classes.htm
>>
>>Well, maybe there are some nice prestige classes that an elf with both
>>divine (cleric) and arcane (mage) classes can take without needing to take
>>a 3rd class. Just like the prestige classes for monks which emulate
>>multiclassing without incurring multiclassing penalties.
>>
>>
>>I got a pretty good list of feats
>>(http://www.devinweb.com/featlisting.htm), containing the info which book
>>contained them.
>>I have not found a likewise list for prestige classes so far.
>>
>>
>>>>--
>>>>Diese Signatur wurde von MesNews automatisch erstellt. Webseite
>>>>http://www.mesnews.net
>>
>>>Aha.
>>
>>Tja, erwiiischt :-)
>
>
> The presitge class list found a third of the way down on the attached link
> to the WoTC boards appears to be up-to-date or close to it.
>
> http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1...
>
> Crispus
>

Or here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/prc
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 7:13:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Malachias Invictus wrote:
> "WDS" <Bill@seurer.net> wrote in message
> news:1126578625.711480.13700@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
>>Has anyone actually tried one of these? I think one you got going a
>>bit it would be quite a potent combo. Toss in one or two of those
>>feats that raises your caster level and you're all set.
>
>
> They are great support characters, but are nothing compared to a single
> class Wizard of Cleric in any other department.
>

My most recent campaign started at 4th level with one character, the
only spellcaster, being a 2/2 cleric/wizard, who intended to go Mystic
Theurge at the earliest opportunity, which is to say 7th level
(cl3/wi3/mt1). That happened recently, so we'll see what effect it will
have on the campaign. As DM, the only real difference it's made so far
is that I still get to use diseases against the party because he doesn't
have 3rd level spells yet. Normally by 5th level diseases are pretty
much useless as party threats unless you're using variant rules. (The
Atlas Games "Nyambe" supplement had rules for really potent diseases
which required caster level checks to eradicate, even with "Remove
Disease." That's something I might consider swiping for use in my
current game.)
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 12:24:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Nikolaus Wagner wrote:
> Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de wrote :
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Aha :D  !
>
>> Nikolaus Wagner wrote:
>>
>>> Hi!
>>> Is there a good prestige class combo for an elven wiz+cleric?
>
>
> You mean apart from Mystic Theurge and Thaumaturgist?
> Hm, there must be a hidden flaw in Mystic Theurge.
> Advancing in both classes at once just sound so good.
> Ok, no bonus feats, slower save progression.
> Well, maybe mystic theurge is too weak and it would die soon or start
> healing its own wounds every round.
> Has anyone played a mystic theurge? Any infos on it?
>
> Btw, a nice hypertext version of the srd:
> http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/classes.htm
>
> Well, maybe there are some nice prestige classes that an elf with both
> divine (cleric) and arcane (mage) classes can take without needing to
> take a 3rd class. Just like the prestige classes for monks which emulate
> multiclassing without incurring multiclassing penalties.
>
>
> I got a pretty good list of feats
> (http://www.devinweb.com/featlisting.htm), containing the info which
> book contained them.
> I have not found a likewise list for prestige classes so far.
>
>>> --
>>> Diese Signatur wurde von MesNews automatisch erstellt.
>>> Webseite http://www.mesnews.net
>
>
>> Aha.
>
> Tja, erwiiischt :-)
>

You might also look at the geomancer from Complete Divine and see if
that strikes your fancy.
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 12:27:04 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Quiggy wrote:
> Nikolaus Wagner wrote:
>
>>Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de wrote :
>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Aha :D  !
>>
>>
>>>Nikolaus Wagner wrote:
>>>
>>>>Hi!
>>>>Is there a good prestige class combo for an elven wiz+cleric?
>>
>>You mean apart from Mystic Theurge and Thaumaturgist?
>>Hm, there must be a hidden flaw in Mystic Theurge.
>>Advancing in both classes at once just sound so good.
>>Ok, no bonus feats, slower save progression.
>>Well, maybe mystic theurge is too weak and it would die soon or start
>>healing its own wounds every round.
>>Has anyone played a mystic theurge? Any infos on it?
>>[snip]
>
>
> There is no hidden flaw in the mystic theurge. The thing is that in
> order to take your first level in it, you must already be a Wiz 3/Clr
> 3. This means that you gave up 3 levels in each spellcasting class.
> In addition, you do not gain bonus feat progressions, and your save
> progression isn't as good.
>

Essentially you end up 1 level's worth of spells behind a single class
caster, but as I said so far that hasn't doomed the party at all. It's
just forced them to use different tactics. The healing gets spread
pretty thin, but since both the ranger and the rogue can use CLW wands,
it's not so bad as all that.
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 12:28:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

WDS wrote:
> Has anyone actually tried one of these? I think one you got going a
> bit it would be quite a potent combo. Toss in one or two of those
> feats that raises your caster level and you're all set.
>

I'll let you know how the player likes his character once he gets a few
more levels under his belt. So far at just the first level of it
there's not been a big change, but that will alter at 8th when he casts
as 5/5.
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 2:13:04 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

I think that Practised Spellcaster makes the dual class much more
viable. Is the pC aware of the feat?
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 2:25:04 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

WDS wrote:
> I think that Practised Spellcaster makes the dual class much more
> viable. Is the pC aware of the feat?
>

Yes, I mentioned already that I pointed out the feat to the player, but
he didn't seem interested. He's still happy with his 4/4 caster level
and seems more interested in finding a use for his turn undead slots
that will give him more benefit than actually turning undead, as the
lower turning level has only worked about a third of the time for him.
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 4:27:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Some Guy" <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote in message
news:QA7We.17138$sx2.1343@fed1read02...
> WDS wrote:
>> I think that Practised Spellcaster makes the dual class much more
>> viable. Is the pC aware of the feat?
>>
>
> Yes, I mentioned already that I pointed out the feat to the player, but he
> didn't seem interested.

Your player is an idiot. Those are by a long stretch the most powerful and
useful feat choices on the table.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 8:03:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Some Guy <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote:
>You might also look at the geomancer from Complete Divine and see if
>that strikes your fancy.

Has *anyone* here ever had a PC take a level in that class?


Donald
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 8:03:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Donald Tsang wrote:
> Some Guy <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote:
>
>>You might also look at the geomancer from Complete Divine and see if
>>that strikes your fancy.
>
>
> Has *anyone* here ever had a PC take a level in that class?
>
>
> Donald

Nope. It doesn't seem to give a big return for the buck. Sure, arcane
spellcasting in armor is a good benefit but I don't think any PC is
going to want to grow vines in place of their hair (for example) to get
it. I've rolled up some NPC geomancers that I'll try out when the party
gets closer to 10th level, where I built those NPCs.
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 6:10:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Nikolaus Wagner wrote:
> Hi!
> Is there a good prestige class combo for an elven wiz+cleric?
> Thanks in advance,
> Nik

Vague recollection from a book I haven't looked it in a while, and
don't have here, but did you look at Fochlucan Lyrist from Complete
Adventurer? ISTR it being +1BAB/level, +1 casting level in Arcane, +1
caster level in divine, and two good saves, plus some class abilities.
You probably need bard levels to take it, though.
Anonymous
September 16, 2005 12:52:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

> but if it's grease, glitterdust, bless and bull's strength

Losing duration on all those spells is very painful.
Anonymous
September 16, 2005 2:00:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

> To WDS: Usenet articles often arrive out of order, and sometimes the
> precursor to an article disappears entirely. Therefore, it's important
> to quote enough context to indicate who you're talking to and what
> you're talking about, especially when making a request like the one
> above.

Golly, really?
Anonymous
September 16, 2005 7:04:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
> If this is the same Bill Seurer who's been posting to Usenet since 1991,
> he already knows the rules. Indeed, he used to quote context and
> attribute it properly. If he's new to Google groups, that explains the
> dropped context, although it doesn't explain the missing attributions or
> his nasty attitude about this.

I thought it was earlier but I don't remember exactly when Usenet took
off. I started using Google a while back beacuse I have different
computers and an unreliable newsfeed from my ISP. As for quoting I
usually do, I just hit the wrong reply button (a fault of Google).

And my attitude was more like heavy satire, not nasty. Of course
attitude in hopeless to communicate here, yes, even with smilies.
Anonymous
September 16, 2005 9:38:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

WDS <Bill@seurer.net> wrote:
>> To WDS: Usenet articles often arrive out of order, and sometimes the
>> precursor to an article disappears entirely. Therefore, it's important
>> to quote enough context to indicate who you're talking to and what
>> you're talking about, especially when making a request like the one
>> above.

> Golly, really?

If you're aware of the problem, then why didn't you quote context or at
least indicate who you were talking to? Also, you should attribute
quotations to their authors.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
Anonymous
September 16, 2005 11:01:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

WDS wrote:
> > but if it's grease, glitterdust, bless and bull's strength
>
> Losing duration on all those spells is very painful.

Not really. Bull's Strength lasts 1 minute per level. It's really
jsut a one combat encounter spell. On the off chance you cast it when
needed then only a a minute or 2 later you're glad you still have it,
that's terrific, but in my estimation it doesn't happen often enough to
worry about. Even more so for the 1 round per level spells. A few
extra rounds can matter in a long combat, true, but the idea is to make
a combat as short as possible. The extra rounds lost in duration over
time is not so significant. When the duration runs out, you do
something else if needed.

Practiced Spellcaster is still a good Feat. It does help. It just
means if you are more selective of your spells a multiclass spellcaster
doesn't have to take it or else he's doomed.

Gerald Katz
Anonymous
September 16, 2005 11:32:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Robert Singers wrote:
> I'm getting more and more tempted just to filter out post from Google
> groups.

Odd because I feel the same way about hotmail users.
Anonymous
September 16, 2005 11:38:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Hadsil wrote:
> WDS wrote:
> > > but if it's grease, glitterdust, bless and bull's strength
> >
> > Losing duration on all those spells is very painful.
>
> Not really. Bull's Strength lasts 1 minute per level. It's really
> jsut a one combat encounter spell. On the off chance you cast it when
> needed then only a a minute or 2 later you're glad you still have it,
> that's terrific, but in my estimation it doesn't happen often enough to
> worry about. Even more so for the 1 round per level spells. ...

We've tended to have really long running combats lately where spells
that last 7 to 9 rounds ran out about half way through. Depends on the
campaign I guess.
Anonymous
September 17, 2005 1:08:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in message
news:slrndim0p1.koh.bradd+news@szonye.com...
> WDS <Bill@seurer.net> wrote:
>>> To WDS: Usenet articles often arrive out of order, and sometimes the
>>> precursor to an article disappears entirely. Therefore, it's important
>>> to quote enough context to indicate who you're talking to and what
>>> you're talking about, especially when making a request like the one
>>> above.
>
>> Golly, really?
>
> If you're aware of the problem, then why didn't you quote context or at
> least indicate who you were talking to? Also, you should attribute
> quotations to their authors.

Strangely, this appears to be Bill Seurer.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Anonymous
September 17, 2005 8:28:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Malachias Invictus <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> "Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in message
> news:slrndim0p1.koh.bradd+news@szonye.com...
>> WDS <Bill@seurer.net> wrote:
>>>> To WDS: Usenet articles often arrive out of order, and sometimes the
>>>> precursor to an article disappears entirely. Therefore, it's important
>>>> to quote enough context to indicate who you're talking to and what
>>>> you're talking about, especially when making a request like the one
>>>> above.
>>
>>> Golly, really?
>>
>> If you're aware of the problem, then why didn't you quote context or at
>> least indicate who you were talking to? Also, you should attribute
>> quotations to their authors.
>
> Strangely, this appears to be Bill Seurer.

Yeah, I noticed that after I chewed him out. Looks like he's not coping
with the switch to Google Groups very well.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
Anonymous
September 17, 2005 4:24:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On 16 Sep 2005 08:52:31 -0700, "WDS" <Bill@seurer.net> wrote:

:> but if it's grease, glitterdust, bless and bull's strength
:
:Losing duration on all those spells is very painful.

Where losing caster really hurts is in the two
areas where caster level checks come up: Spell
Resistance and Dispel Magic. It's much harder to
overcome spell resistance, to dispel others' spells,
and your spells are much more vulnerable to dispelling.
--
"Intelligence is too complex to capture in a single number." -Alfred Binet

George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
Anonymous
September 17, 2005 4:33:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Between saving the world and having a spot of tea Bradd W. Szonye said

> If you're aware of the problem, then why didn't you quote context or at
> least indicate who you were talking to? Also, you should attribute
> quotations to their authors.

I'm getting more and more tempted just to filter out post from Google
groups.

--
Rob Singers
"All your Ron are belong to us"
Foemina Erit Ruina Tua
Anonymous
September 17, 2005 8:03:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Malachias Invictus wrote:
> "Some Guy" <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote in message
> news:QA7We.17138$sx2.1343@fed1read02...
>
>>WDS wrote:
>>
>>>I think that Practised Spellcaster makes the dual class much more
>>>viable. Is the pC aware of the feat?
>>>
>>
>>Yes, I mentioned already that I pointed out the feat to the player, but he
>>didn't seem interested.
>
>
> Your player is an idiot. Those are by a long stretch the most powerful and
> useful feat choices on the table.

Well, they certainly help offset the multiclassing penalty. I don't
know about "most powerful" and "most useful." While I tend to run games
that are more combat-heavy than role-play heavy, I also like to mix up
the types of combat encounters such that blowing away stuff with buckets
of damage dice isn't always the best way around the encounter, hence the
player's decision to use things like Glitterdust and Web to support the
mostly-melee party. Unless you're at the top of the initiative and/or
your encounters always start at Medium to Long range, Fireballs and such
may do more harm than good, except where the monk & rogue are
tag-teaming an opponent.
Anonymous
September 17, 2005 8:56:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Between saving the world and having a spot of tea WDS said

> Robert Singers wrote:
>> I'm getting more and more tempted just to filter out post from Google
>> groups.
>
> Odd because I feel the same way about hotmail users.

Some of us know that we don't post to this NG via email and that it's wise
to use a spam catcher account.

--
Rob Singers
"All your Ron are belong to us"
Foemina Erit Ruina Tua
Anonymous
September 17, 2005 8:59:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Between saving the world and having a spot of tea Bradd W. Szonye said

> Yeah, I noticed that after I chewed him out. Looks like he's not coping
> with the switch to Google Groups very well.

I was going to suggest he try news.sunsite.dk instead, but it seems he
likes being a dick.

--
Rob Singers
"All your Ron are belong to us"
Foemina Erit Ruina Tua
Anonymous
September 17, 2005 9:47:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jasin Zujovic <jzujovic@inet.hr> wrote:
> capt_malachias@hotmail.com says...
>>> Probably, but if he's using spells that don't scale by caster level
>>> and/or don't allow SR and/or going against monsters without SR,
>>> there might be other things that at least seem as attractive, and
>>> probably are a lot more interesting.

>> Possibly. At that point, you are really shortening the spell list, which
>> sort of goes against the whole "versatile caster" thing.

> Well, yes, there's that.

It worked out pretty well for our group's MT. She concentrated on
conjurations, buffs, heals, and utility spells, and IIRC she used wands
quite a bit (another place where CL doesn't matter).

> Really? It never occured to me that [healing] could be important. It's
> only 3 hp less per spell (OK, 30 if we're talking heal)... but I guess
> that does add up.

We didn't notice, because we get most of our healing from wands. For us,
the spell list is often more important than the spells you actually
know. It's not too unusual for our main healer to be a druid or even a
ranger.

> Would you say the healing thing is more important than the loss in
> power for attack spells on the wizard side? If you could, for whatever
> reason, take Practiced Spellcaster only once, would you apply it to
> the cleric or the wizard side?

I don't know whether I'd bother with either. In D&D, it generally pays
better to boost your strengths rather than shoring up your weaknesses.
For a MT, that would mean boosting your spells known and spells per day
so that you always have the right tool for the job. You'll never be as
strong in combat as a single-classed spellcaster, but you can go nuts
with support magic. Combat monsters should play a wizard (OK, a
kineticist); MTs work better in the "bard/defender" role.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
Anonymous
September 17, 2005 11:54:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Mystic Theurge is not good:
************************

Spellslot Comparison Mystic Theurge to Wizard:

Level 16 (last level of MT):
------------------------------
Cl 3 /Wiz 3/ MT 10=16

Cl 13
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
5 5 5 5 4 3 2 1
(domain spells not included)


Wiz 13
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1


Sum:
Cl (Caster level) 16+Wiz (Cl)16
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
9 9 9 9 8 6 4 2

Wiz 16
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2



Bonus Spells :
MT (even distribution of wis/int):
4,8,12,16
wis, int, wis, int (+2 wis, +2 int)

Wiz:
4,8,12,16
int, int, int, int (+4 int)

....assuming Base Values of Int 18 and Wis 12
MT: Int 20(+5), Wis 14 (+2)
MT-Wiz MT-Cl
1 2 3 4 5 1 2
2 1 1 1 1 1 1

Sum
1 2 3 4 5
3 3 1 1 1

Wiz: Int 24 (+7)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
2 2 2 1 1 1 1


Sum of Spell Slots:
Cl (Cl) 16+Wiz (Cl)16
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
9 10 10 10 9 7 4 2

Wiz 16
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
4 6 6 6 5 5 4 4 2

Difference MT<-> Wiz
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
+5 +4 +4 +4 +4 +2 - -2 -2

The clerics domain spells are not in this list as selection is limited
compared to the wizards std spell slots and cleric domain spells cannot
be converted to cure/inflict spells.


Sacrificed feats:2 regular feats (2x practiced spellcaster), 3 bonus
feats (Wiz)
Wizard's familiar loses 13 levels
Cleric turns/rebukes with a bad cha-rating.
Spells of both classes are with lower DCs (-2 Wiz, -5 Cl) , making the
MT more of a support character primarily using buffs or healing spells.
+1 level of wiz yields a 9th level slot
+1 level of MT not possible: End of Prestige Class, Epic MT only has
+Cleric at even levels, +Wiz add odd levels, feat progression is slower
than Epic Wiz feat progression

--
Yes, Yes, more of the DnD flavor.
MC Beholder on the mike, DJ Mindflayer kicking it massive
Anonymous
September 18, 2005 12:40:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

WDS wrote:
>>but if it's grease, glitterdust, bless and bull's strength
>
>
> Losing duration on all those spells is very painful.
>

So far it's not been that big a problem. The biggest problem is to keep
the barbarian from charging into a big group BEFORE the Glitterdust goes
off, but then he's not exactly the co-operative type. Fortunately for
him he usually rages before charge, making the Will save a little better.
Anonymous
September 18, 2005 12:52:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

WDS wrote:
> Hadsil wrote:
>
>>WDS wrote:
>>
>>>>but if it's grease, glitterdust, bless and bull's strength
>>>
>>>Losing duration on all those spells is very painful.
>>
>>Not really. Bull's Strength lasts 1 minute per level. It's really
>>jsut a one combat encounter spell. On the off chance you cast it when
>>needed then only a a minute or 2 later you're glad you still have it,
>>that's terrific, but in my estimation it doesn't happen often enough to
>>worry about. Even more so for the 1 round per level spells. ...
>
>
> We've tended to have really long running combats lately where spells
> that last 7 to 9 rounds ran out about half way through. Depends on the
> campaign I guess.
>

In almost a year of play, we've only had one combat when, for example,
the barbarian's rage expired mid-combat, and that's 8 rounds.
Anonymous
September 18, 2005 7:11:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Some Guy wrote:
> Malachias Invictus wrote:
>> Some Guy wrote:
>>> WDS wrote:
>
>>>> I think that Practised Spellcaster makes the dual class much more
>>>> viable. Is the pC aware of the feat?
>>>
>>> Yes, I mentioned already that I pointed out the feat to the player,
>>> but he didn't seem interested.
>>
>> Your player is an idiot. Those are by a long stretch the most powerful
>> and useful feat choices on the table.
>
> Well, they certainly help offset the multiclassing penalty. I don't
> know about "most powerful" and "most useful." While I tend to run games
> that are more combat-heavy than role-play heavy, I also like to mix up
> the types of combat encounters such that blowing away stuff with buckets
> of damage dice isn't always the best way around the encounter, hence the
> player's decision to use things like Glitterdust and Web to support the
> mostly-melee party.

Good Lord, man, it's not the *damage dice*. It's the caster level check for
overcoming spell resistance which matters.

--
Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia

SERENITY - The Future Is Worth Fighting For

http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/prestigec...
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/templatel...
Anonymous
September 18, 2005 7:11:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Christopher Adams wrote:
> Some Guy wrote:
>
>>Malachias Invictus wrote:
>>
>>>Some Guy wrote:
>>>
>>>>WDS wrote:
>>
>>>>>I think that Practised Spellcaster makes the dual class much more
>>>>>viable. Is the pC aware of the feat?
>>>>
>>>>Yes, I mentioned already that I pointed out the feat to the player,
>>>>but he didn't seem interested.
>>>
>>>Your player is an idiot. Those are by a long stretch the most powerful
>>>and useful feat choices on the table.
>>
>>Well, they certainly help offset the multiclassing penalty. I don't
>>know about "most powerful" and "most useful." While I tend to run games
>>that are more combat-heavy than role-play heavy, I also like to mix up
>>the types of combat encounters such that blowing away stuff with buckets
>>of damage dice isn't always the best way around the encounter, hence the
>>player's decision to use things like Glitterdust and Web to support the
>>mostly-melee party.
>
>
> Good Lord, man, it's not the *damage dice*. It's the caster level check for
> overcoming spell resistance which matters.
>

Neither Glitterdust nor Web allow SR, so that's not been an issue.
Well, that and the only thing with SR they've encountered so far have
been a coupld of low-level devils.
Anonymous
September 18, 2005 12:04:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Some Guy wrote:
>
> Neither Glitterdust nor Web allow SR, so that's not been an issue.
> Well, that and the only thing with SR they've encountered so far have
> been a coupld of low-level devils.

Similarly, the lack of power from the multiclass matters less at lower levels.

Having played in Hong's campaign just recently, where my character was a caster
with spell resistance himself, it made me keenly aware of how important it is.

--
Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia

SERENITY - The Future Is Worth Fighting For

http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/prestigec...
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/templatel...
Anonymous
September 18, 2005 7:22:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Nikolaus Wagner wrote:

> The clerics domain spells are not in this list as selection is limited
> compared to the wizards std spell slots and cleric domain spells cannot
> be converted to cure/inflict spells.
>
>

They should be because cleric domain spells are not insignificant. The
player chooses them at 1st cleric level. He can decide for himself
which ones he wants. Plus, he gets both domain abilities, some are
better than others.

> Sacrificed feats:2 regular feats (2x practiced spellcaster), 3 bonus
> feats (Wiz)

Two feats for Practiced Spellcaster is 1) not a must have or else the
character is doomed and 2) are not wasted feat choices in any event.

> Wizard's familiar loses 13 levels

Except for Alienist, that I know of, all "wizard" prestige classes
stump familiar improvement. Some players don't even like familiars.

> Cleric turns/rebukes with a bad cha-rating.

As do many "cleric" prestige classes. If CH is so low, the "cleric"
wasn't going to be turning undead anyway. Besides, 1) clerics have
decent spells against undead and 2) Thanks to the Complete books there
are a number of nice divine feats he can spend his "useless" turn
attempts on. Divine Vigor is my personal favorite.

> Spells of both classes are with lower DCs (-2 Wiz, -5 Cl) , making the
> MT more of a support character primarily using buffs or healing spells.
> +1 level of wiz yields a 9th level slot
> +1 level of MT not possible: End of Prestige Class, Epic MT only has
> +Cleric at even levels, +Wiz add odd levels, feat progression is slower
> than Epic Wiz feat progression
>
> --
> Yes, Yes, more of the DnD flavor.
> MC Beholder on the mike, DJ Mindflayer kicking it massive

??
Why would an Epic Mystic Theurge have to separate between levels the
increase in cleric and wizard casting levels? The whole point of
Mystic Theurge is for both of them to increase at the same time. They
should continue to do so in Epic. Why should bonus feat selection be
any slower? Equal to single class cleric or wizard is not going to
break the game.

Gerald Katz
Anonymous
September 18, 2005 7:27:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Christopher Adams wrote:

> Good Lord, man, it's not the *damage dice*. It's the caster level check for
> overcoming spell resistance which matters.
>
> --
> Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia
>
> SERENITY - The Future Is Worth Fighting For
>
> http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/prestigec...
> http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/templatel...

If a DM is constantly using creatures with SR against the party so much
where this matters over the course of the campaign as opposed to a
particular encounter, then the DM is being a jerk, no different than
constantly using fire resistant creatures because a single class wizard
has lots of fire spells or only using undead, plant, and construct
creatures letting the rogue twiddle his thumbs, or every Big Evil Bad
Guy in the world have rust monsters for pets making the tanks sit back,
or any other number of character hosers.

Gerald Katz
Anonymous
September 18, 2005 7:56:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Hadsil wrote:
> Christopher Adams wrote:
>
>
>>Good Lord, man, it's not the *damage dice*. It's the caster level check for
>>overcoming spell resistance which matters.
>>
>>--
>>Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia
>>
>>SERENITY - The Future Is Worth Fighting For
>>
>>http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/prestigec...
>>http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/templatel...
>
>
> If a DM is constantly using creatures with SR against the party so much
> where this matters over the course of the campaign as opposed to a
> particular encounter, then the DM is being a jerk, no different than
> constantly using fire resistant creatures because a single class wizard
> has lots of fire spells or only using undead, plant, and construct
> creatures letting the rogue twiddle his thumbs, or every Big Evil Bad
> Guy in the world have rust monsters for pets making the tanks sit back,
> or any other number of character hosers.

I don't usually pick my monsters based on what the party's weaknesses
are, I pick them based on the theme of the adventure. If they're going
to the arctic and they run into frozen undead, I don't care if they have
a cleric or not. It's more about interesting and unusual challenges
rather than making anti-player encounters.

That's not to say that I won't consider factors like SR in an encounter.
Really, with only one spellcaster in a party of six (I don't count the
ranger as a spellcaster in this regard), SR is hardly a challenge as it
usually only impacts the mystic theurge, and his favorite spells ignore
SR. Of course, he's only got so many spell slots per day and has to
occasionally fall back on Magic Missile as well, which is where SR
becomes important.
Anonymous
September 18, 2005 8:15:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Hadsil wrote:
> Nikolaus Wagner wrote:
>
>
>>The clerics domain spells are not in this list as selection is limited
>>compared to the wizards std spell slots and cleric domain spells cannot
>>be converted to cure/inflict spells.
>>
>>
>
>
> They should be because cleric domain spells are not insignificant. The
> player chooses them at 1st cleric level. He can decide for himself
> which ones he wants. Plus, he gets both domain abilities, some are
> better than others.

Magic, for example, mitigates some of the penalty for multiclassing with
its stacking of levels for purposes of using scrolls, etc.

>>Sacrificed feats:2 regular feats (2x practiced spellcaster), 3 bonus
>>feats (Wiz)
>
>
> Two feats for Practiced Spellcaster is 1) not a must have or else the
> character is doomed and 2) are not wasted feat choices in any event.

I agree with the poster who said it's necessary for things like doing
buckets of damage and overcoming SR, but it's possible to build a useful
mystic theurge without those being necessary.

>>Wizard's familiar loses 13 levels
>
>
> Except for Alienist, that I know of, all "wizard" prestige classes
> stump familiar improvement. Some players don't even like familiars.

In fact, I've never yet seen the player ever risk his familiar to use
the "deliver touch spell" abilty, because he doesn't want to take the XP
hit if it's killed. Of course, he tends to forget that the familiar's
ability is also useful to deliver, say, a Cure spell to an opponent he
can't physically reach.

>>Cleric turns/rebukes with a bad cha-rating.
>
>
> As do many "cleric" prestige classes. If CH is so low, the "cleric"
> wasn't going to be turning undead anyway. Besides, 1) clerics have
> decent spells against undead and 2) Thanks to the Complete books there
> are a number of nice divine feats he can spend his "useless" turn
> attempts on. Divine Vigor is my personal favorite.

This is what the player tells me he's planning on doing with his 9th
level feat (not necessarily DV itself, but one of those feats). That's
still 2 levels off, so we'll see if he feels the same once he's there
after he's played the Mystic Theurge for awhile.

>>Spells of both classes are with lower DCs (-2 Wiz, -5 Cl) , making the
>>MT more of a support character primarily using buffs or healing spells.
>>+1 level of wiz yields a 9th level slot
>>+1 level of MT not possible: End of Prestige Class, Epic MT only has
>>+Cleric at even levels, +Wiz add odd levels, feat progression is slower
>>than Epic Wiz feat progression
>>
>>--
>>Yes, Yes, more of the DnD flavor.
>>MC Beholder on the mike, DJ Mindflayer kicking it massive
>
>
> ??
> Why would an Epic Mystic Theurge have to separate between levels the
> increase in cleric and wizard casting levels? The whole point of
> Mystic Theurge is for both of them to increase at the same time. They
> should continue to do so in Epic. Why should bonus feat selection be
> any slower? Equal to single class cleric or wizard is not going to
> break the game.
>
> Gerald Katz
>
Anonymous
September 19, 2005 1:31:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Hadsil" <forumite@netzero.com> wrote in message
news:1127082466.403705.46380@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

> If a DM is constantly using creatures with SR against the party so much
> where this matters over the course of the campaign as opposed to a
> particular encounter, then the DM is being a jerk,

At low levels, perhaps. At higher levels, a buttload of creatures have SR.
It is something you are going to have to deal with. Of course, that 4th
level Lower Spell Resistance is pretty good for taking care of that (but
they get a save penalty equal to your Caster Level, so Practiced Spellcaster
helps here too).

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Anonymous
September 19, 2005 4:40:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Malachias Invictus wrote:
> Hadsil wrote:
>
>> If a DM is constantly using creatures with SR against the party so much
>> where this matters over the course of the campaign as opposed to a
>> particular encounter, then the DM is being a jerk,
>
> At low levels, perhaps. At higher levels, a buttload of creatures have
> SR. It is something you are going to have to deal with.

Exactly. You can't adventure at high levels without encountering spell
resistance on a regular basis - even among classed NPCs! I mean, why should they
be equipped any less well than PCs are?

--
Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia

SERENITY - The Future Is Worth Fighting For

http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/prestigec...
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/templatel...
Anonymous
September 20, 2005 11:51:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Hadsil" <forumite@netzero.com> wrote in message
news:1127082136.681418.149570@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

> Why would an Epic Mystic Theurge have to separate between levels the
> increase in cleric and wizard casting levels? The whole point of
> Mystic Theurge is for both of them to increase at the same time. They
> should continue to do so in Epic. Why should bonus feat selection be
> any slower? Equal to single class cleric or wizard is not going to
> break the game.

Yes, this is stupid. Yes, it should be ruled the way you describe.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
!