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The Newbie Project: Clan Brujah

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Anonymous
July 7, 2005 11:14:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

The "infamous" Barbed Wire Project awakened an idea in my small meager
mind. It has spawned from the dark recesses and gradually taken fruit.

Why not design newbie decks that can be loaned out to new players?

The hardest part I find as a Prince is to teach new players the game
and then go through the learning curve of being able to play.

The main idea of this concept is to give newbies a deck that they can
pick up and play, to feel like they are actually doing something during
a game. The deck doesn't have to be a game winner, simply a deck that
can apply pressure, etc, etc.

Since this forum contains some of the best minds of Jyhad that I have
had the privledge to read, drool and fawn over ;-)

I figured they might be happy to offer their amazing words of wisdom.
Through I will say that I won't be selling these on Ebay.

:-)

I suppose these decks maybe given to new players if they demonstare
suitable interest. But generally to also gain some decks to teach new
players and slurp up my excess cards :-)

The first clan I submit to this forum of corrupt minds is Brujah.

Starting with the crypt:

What grouping should be used?
What vampires should be considered?


The deck:

What type of deck?

I'm leaning towards more of a toolbox.

Thoughts, opinions or rude comments.
Anonymous
July 8, 2005 12:00:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

I don't know if this is of interest, but from my experience the Starter
Decks are not balanced among themselves. If one was to have a game
amongst people with starter decks, the non-combat decks such as Ventrue
and Torreador starters (which are vote oriented) are dramatically
better than the combat oriented Starters such as the Brujah and
Gangrel. The other problem with the Starter decks is the crypt. It
seems like White Wolf set out to make sure that they didn't use that
many group 3 vamps in their Camarilla starters. The results was an
reliance on Dark Sovereigns vamps which tended to make it so that you
could bring out one or two vamps at most for roughly 18 pool.

My thoughts on the BWP already seem to be well known and, strangely,
controversial so I probably can't be of much help. The one advice I
would give you would be to decide on what the budget is for the deck.
I.E. Are you giving these away or not? If you're not giving them away,
then you can use most any cards of any value and the question becomes
what's a good deck to play. I"m sure there are lots of candidates in
that case.

Cheers,
Preston


lehrbuch wrote:
> d21_aod@yahoo.com.au wrote:
> > Why not design newbie decks that can be loaned out to new players?
>
> There doesn't seem much point. The existing starter decks and demo
> decks seem to fullfil this role admirably. They are sub-optimal,
> toolboxy decks that showcase most game functions, and actually include
> useful cards.
>
> However, if you want to dispose of your cards - rather than buy more
> cards - I suggest you download the starter decklists, and try to
> reproduce those, substituting where you are missing cards.
>
> www.thelasombra.com has all the starter decklists archived, I imagine.
>
> --
> * lehrbuch (lehrbuch@gmail.com)
Anonymous
July 8, 2005 1:15:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Hi everybody, this' my first post here.

To the point: if you are not giving away said decks, then just handle
the newbies good, competitive decks.

Experience here in Bs.As. is more or less as follows:

Local Prince owns a huge collection of cards. Most players, then,
borrow entire decks from him for informal games, or tournaments. And
most of them are truly strong decks. He even allow us to go try to
build a deck of our own invention.

Even for the one's that do have cards of their own (such as me), he
lend us any card we need to complete our deck concepts.

As of now, we have steadily grown from a small playgroup to a rather
large amount of players.

During a small, informal tournament last month, both my girlfriend and
a friend of hers were introduced to the group and the game, and both
played with such decks. Though her friend didn't played the tournament,
but the "loosers table". They both enjoyed the day, played with cool
decks, and is highly probable that both of them will be there during
next tournament on August. What's more, my girlfriend have already told
me what kind of deck she wants to play with. Hell, she's thinking of
the game, a long time before the tournament. Seems local prince
strategy works...

Regards,

Kalessin.
Related resources
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Anonymous
July 8, 2005 2:06:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Welcome!
Anonymous
July 8, 2005 2:11:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

d21_aod@yahoo.com.au wrote:
> The "infamous" Barbed Wire Project awakened an idea in my small meager
> mind. It has spawned from the dark recesses and gradually taken fruit.
>
> Why not design newbie decks that can be loaned out to new players?
>
> The hardest part I find as a Prince is to teach new players the game
> and then go through the learning curve of being able to play.

Unfortunately (or fortunately) I'm not a Prince myself, but I'm always
involved in the similar activity here in Minsk. IMHO, we should "loan"
the decks to the newbies only as a "patterns" of their own future
decks. Let's determine our goals then! To my mind, the "newbie decks"
should be:

* Easy to play. Obviously, we should avoid cards that are difficult to
understand (like Rotschreck) or difficult to play properly (like
Smiling Jack, the Anarch).
* Powerful. I'm not going to create special "newbie tournaments" -
newbies should play the same tournaments the experienced players do.
Yes, they aren't going to win much at first, but they should feel that
they also COULD win with a better thinking and/or some better cards.
* Cheap. You may "loan" a deck with 50 Freak Drives, but the newbie
would realize that he would never be able to afford the similar deck of
his own. New players rarely spend hundreds of dollars on the cards, and
we should demostrate what can be done for just $20-$50. Note that
"powerful" has priority over "cheap", and it would be plain silly to
avoid Deflections just because they cost $0.50 in The Lasombra's
inventory.
* Appealing. The newbies like powerful combat, cool vampire abilities,
and so on. BTW, I can't understand why are you going to make clan-based
decks like the "BWP project" did. IMHO, good newbie decks should be
theme-based: a voting deck, a stealth-bleed deck, an intercept deck
etc. etc., not just "Brujah deck" or "Ventrue deck".

It would be great to hear your opinion about the goals of the 'newbie
decks'.

> The main idea of this concept is to give newbies a deck that they can
> pick up and play, to feel like they are actually doing something during
> a game. The deck doesn't have to be a game winner, simply a deck that
> can apply pressure, etc, etc.
>
> Since this forum contains some of the best minds of Jyhad that I have
> had the privledge to read, drool and fawn over ;-)
>
> I figured they might be happy to offer their amazing words of wisdom.
> Through I will say that I won't be selling these on Ebay.
>
> :-)
>
> I suppose these decks maybe given to new players if they demonstare
> suitable interest. But generally to also gain some decks to teach new
> players and slurp up my excess cards :-)

Unfortunately, I am a new player myself, and I don't have much "excess
cards". Thus, I'm forced to base my "newbie decks" on starters, which
aren't bad. This approach should be good for you as well, since the
number of excess cards is never unlimited.

> The first clan I submit to this forum of corrupt minds is Brujah.

Again, why do you want to build a "clan deck"? Do you always play such
decks yourself? IMHO, the deck would be much better if you chose the
theme and wouldn't restrict yourself with vampires of a single clan.

> Starting with the crypt:
>
> What grouping should be used?
> What vampires should be considered?
>
>
> The deck:
>
> What type of deck?
>
> I'm leaning towards more of a toolbox.
>
> Thoughts, opinions or rude comments.

Toolbox decks aren't very easy to play, especially for newbies.
Concentrating on a single deck idea is much more simple. When a newbie
plays a toolbox, he tends to play the cards he have, even if it would
be better to keep them for a while. For instance, almost every newbie
shoots his first Conditioning as fast as possible, demonstrating the
aggression to the whole table.

Yours,
Ector
Anonymous
July 8, 2005 6:12:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Ector wrote:
> d21_aod@yahoo.com.au wrote:
> > The "infamous" Barbed Wire Project awakened an idea in my small meager
> > mind. It has spawned from the dark recesses and gradually taken fruit.
> >
> > Why not design newbie decks that can be loaned out to new players?
> >
> > The hardest part I find as a Prince is to teach new players the game
> > and then go through the learning curve of being able to play.
>
> Unfortunately (or fortunately) I'm not a Prince myself, but I'm always
> involved in the similar activity here in Minsk. IMHO, we should "loan"
> the decks to the newbies only as a "patterns" of their own future
> decks. Let's determine our goals then! To my mind, the "newbie decks"
> should be:
>
> * Easy to play. Obviously, we should avoid cards that are difficult to
> understand (like Rotschreck) or difficult to play properly (like
> Smiling Jack, the Anarch).
> * Powerful. I'm not going to create special "newbie tournaments" -
> newbies should play the same tournaments the experienced players do.
> Yes, they aren't going to win much at first, but they should feel that
> they also COULD win with a better thinking and/or some better cards.
> * Cheap. You may "loan" a deck with 50 Freak Drives, but the newbie
> would realize that he would never be able to afford the similar deck of
> his own. New players rarely spend hundreds of dollars on the cards, and
> we should demostrate what can be done for just $20-$50. Note that
> "powerful" has priority over "cheap", and it would be plain silly to
> avoid Deflections just because they cost $0.50 in The Lasombra's
> inventory.
> * Appealing. The newbies like powerful combat, cool vampire abilities,
> and so on. BTW, I can't understand why are you going to make clan-based
> decks like the "BWP project" did. IMHO, good newbie decks should be
> theme-based: a voting deck, a stealth-bleed deck, an intercept deck
> etc. etc., not just "Brujah deck" or "Ventrue deck".
>
> It would be great to hear your opinion about the goals of the 'newbie
> decks'.
>
> > The main idea of this concept is to give newbies a deck that they can
> > pick up and play, to feel like they are actually doing something during
> > a game. The deck doesn't have to be a game winner, simply a deck that
> > can apply pressure, etc, etc.
> >
> > Since this forum contains some of the best minds of Jyhad that I have
> > had the privledge to read, drool and fawn over ;-)
> >
> > I figured they might be happy to offer their amazing words of wisdom.
> > Through I will say that I won't be selling these on Ebay.
> >
> > :-)
> >
> > I suppose these decks maybe given to new players if they demonstare
> > suitable interest. But generally to also gain some decks to teach new
> > players and slurp up my excess cards :-)
>
> Unfortunately, I am a new player myself, and I don't have much "excess
> cards". Thus, I'm forced to base my "newbie decks" on starters, which
> aren't bad. This approach should be good for you as well, since the
> number of excess cards is never unlimited.
>
> > The first clan I submit to this forum of corrupt minds is Brujah.
>
> Again, why do you want to build a "clan deck"? Do you always play such
> decks yourself? IMHO, the deck would be much better if you chose the
> theme and wouldn't restrict yourself with vampires of a single clan.
>
> > Starting with the crypt:
> >
> > What grouping should be used?
> > What vampires should be considered?
> >
> >
> > The deck:
> >
> > What type of deck?
> >
> > I'm leaning towards more of a toolbox.
> >
> > Thoughts, opinions or rude comments.
>
> Toolbox decks aren't very easy to play, especially for newbies.
> Concentrating on a single deck idea is much more simple. When a newbie
> plays a toolbox, he tends to play the cards he have, even if it would
> be better to keep them for a while. For instance, almost every newbie
> shoots his first Conditioning as fast as possible, demonstrating the
> aggression to the whole table.
>
> Yours,
> Ector

Hey Ector,

If you want, I can send you a set of the BWP decks for newbies to mess
around with. No charge. Just curious to see what the feedback would be.

Cheers,
Preston
Anonymous
July 8, 2005 6:42:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

d21_aod@yahoo.com.au wrote:
> Why not design newbie decks that can be loaned out to new players?

There doesn't seem much point. The existing starter decks and demo
decks seem to fullfil this role admirably. They are sub-optimal,
toolboxy decks that showcase most game functions, and actually include
useful cards.

However, if you want to dispose of your cards - rather than buy more
cards - I suggest you download the starter decklists, and try to
reproduce those, substituting where you are missing cards.

www.thelasombra.com has all the starter decklists archived, I imagine.

--
* lehrbuch (lehrbuch@gmail.com)
Anonymous
July 9, 2005 10:30:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Preston wrote:

> Hey Ector,
>
> If you want, I can send you a set of the BWP decks for newbies to mess
> around with. No charge. Just curious to see what the feedback would be.
>
> Cheers,
> Preston

The feedback is quite obvious. I thank you for your kind offer, but I
have to refuse it. You are not my relative nor my friend, thus I simply
cannot accept any gifts from you. No offense meant, it's just my rule
of living.
BTW, I'm not as poor as you might think. I even plan to build my own
"newbie decks" sometimes. Once again, thank you. Maybe, sometimes I
will purchase a bunch of Jyhad commons from you, if you don't mind - I
can assume that Jyhad commons are rather cheap in USA.

Yours,
Ector
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 9:06:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

>It would be great to hear your opinion about the goals of the 'newbie decks'.

My aim is to create a pool of decks that are specifcally desigined in
mind for new players to play. This decks would be "loaned out" to
newbies at tournaments or during play sessions. If the new player likes
the deck (and I think they will continue to play) I may give the actual
deck to them to keep.

So the decks are "loaners" but maybe be "given away" to potential
players.

I'd simply settled on clan based decks because I thought they would be
the easiest to construct and play with. I'd never even thought of
making a themed based deck and I like the idea more than clan based
decks. So I'm convinced.

So instead of producing a Brujah deck, I like Ector's idea of running
with a combat deck.

Combat Deck:

So....what type of combat deck? One that rushes obviously.
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 12:12:14 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On 11 Jul 2005 17:06:08 -0700, d21_aod@yahoo.com.au wrote:

>Combat Deck:

>So....what type of combat deck? One that rushes obviously.

To be given to a new player?

Absolutely not.

Combat is the most involved segment of an action.

1) before combat
2) before range
3) determine range
4) before strikes
5) declare strikes
6) after strike declaration
7) resolve strikes
8) heal damage
9) gain additional strikes
10) repeat 1-8
11) press
12) end of round
13) repeat 2-12 if there was a press

Bleeding or voting are your best choices. With master locations for
intercept and some wakes. Keep the votes simple, and keep the bleeds
one that do not bleed anyone besides the prey.











Carpe noctem.

Lasombra

http://www.TheLasombra.com

Your best online source for information about V:TES.
Now also featuring individual card sales and sales
of booster and starter box displays.
July 12, 2005 1:29:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"lehrbuch" <lehrbuch@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:D av57e$8bj$1@domitilla.aioe.org...
> d) Toolbox decks allow the newbie to participate in most aspects of the
> game. It's very boring for a newbie to be always unable to participate
> in politics or combat. The newbie will not appreciate that the deck
> designer has sacrificed some elements of the game to excel in others -
> especially, if the deck's not working well.
>

I wholeheartedly agree with this... when I first started playing, I really
enjoyed the Sabbat War starters, particularly the Lasombra, which is a great
toolboxy deck.

Pat
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 12:59:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:12:14 -0400, The Lasombra <TheLasombra@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> On 11 Jul 2005 17:06:08 -0700, d21_aod@yahoo.com.au wrote:
>
>> Combat Deck:
>
>> So....what type of combat deck? One that rushes obviously.
>
> To be given to a new player?
>
> Absolutely not.
>
> Combat is the most involved segment of an action.

Would it not be possible to create a Rush deck that is:

1. Using rushes that target predator or prey (like Ellen Fence's special,
Ignazio's special, etc.)

2. Using only one segment of combat to do some serious damage. The deck
may have Manoeuvres, Strikes and Presses; this way, the newbie can grasp
those without needing to worry about the order in which pre-range cards
are played.

3. Has an ousting mechanism (maybe doubles as a Bruise and Bleed deck, or
includes Fames, etc.)

I'm kind of thinking about an Ignazio-focused deck that uses a healthy
mixture of Mighty Grapple and Growing Fury. Ignazio rushes a 7-or-less-
cap, and punches for 3 + 5. A few Pushing the Limits and Sewer Lids
diversify the module. Depending on the support crew, you can end up
using obf and FOR as well, mostly for Manoeuvres, handling Aggravated
Damage and multi-action capability.

I'm not saying this would be the best deck to be given to a complete
newbie. But is may be a good deck to introduce players to combat...

--
Bye,

Daneel
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 7:03:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

The Lasombra wrote:
> On 11 Jul 2005 17:06:08 -0700, d21_aod@yahoo.com.au wrote:
>>So....what type of combat deck? One that rushes obviously.
>
> To be given to a new player?
>
> Absolutely not.

I agree, a pure combat deck is too complicated to give to a newbie.

Also, "random" rushes by newbies will disrupt the game for all the
players. If you must give newbies rush decks then I'd institute a
houserule for the game that (D) actions must be directed against prey -
but, tell them this is just a "learning" rule.

> Bleeding or voting are your best choices. With master locations for
> intercept and some wakes. Keep the votes simple, and keep the bleeds
> one that do not bleed anyone besides the prey.

Good advice.

I do think it's a good idea to stick say, at least, half a dozen combat
cards in a newbie deck. Nothing complicated: strikes, maneuvers or
damage prevention. There is going to be some combat - especially, if
you've got intercept locations floating about - so you might as well
demonstrate some parts of the combat sequence. It's also a good idea to
stick a few equipment cards or some retainers in the deck, so that the
newbies get used those ideas too. Avoid anything complicated.

Although I think it's obvious, it's probably worthwhile to mention that
if newbies are being taught and experienced players are playing also,
then the experienced players should play "newbie" decks, too. The
experienced players should try and play well as exemplars, no-one will
benefit if you play deliberately stupid. Especially, play according to
the letter of the rules - no skipping sequences, etc - but don't be too
evil about it. Also give some (accurate) commentary about why you're
doing what you're doing.

--
* lehrbuch (lehrbuch@gmail.com)
Anonymous
July 13, 2005 11:37:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

d21_aod@yahoo.com.au wrote:
> Why not design newbie decks that can be loaned out to new players?

My brother-in-law-to-be, a Magic veteran, just started V:tES. We taught
him the basics using the demo decks that WW hands out, then I lent him
a deck I had built with teaching the game in mind. I tried to come up
with something that wouldn't be too tricky to play, would introduce
game concepts and strategies without throwing too much at the player,
and would be competitive. This is the result.

It's a clan-based deck mostly because it focuses on Vicissitude and
Auspex, which occur mainly in one clan. Were I playing it myself, I'd
probably add 4 Council of Seraphim and 2 Corporal Reservoirs.

Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 10, Max: 26, Avg: 4.58)
----------------------------------------------
2 Piotr Andreikov aus 2 Tzimisce
1 Horatio vic 2 Tzimisce
2 Lolita Houston aus VIC 4 Tzimisce
1 Ana Rita Montana aus dom obf VIC 5 Tzimisce
1 Elizabeth Westcott ani cel vic AUS 5 Tzimisce
1 Devin Bisley vic ANI AUS 5 Tzimisce
2 Corine Marcon ani AUS VIC 6 Tzimisce
2 Kazimir Savostin ani pot AUS VIC 7 Tzimisce

Library: (74 cards)
-------------------
Master (16 cards)
1 Admonitions, The
4 Blood Doll
1 Communal Haven: Cathedral
2 Corporal Reservoir
1 Information Highway
1 Library Hunting Ground
1 Storage Annex
3 Sudden Reversal
1 Tribute to the Master
1 Vast Wealth

Action (15 cards)
5 Fiendish Tongue
2 Pulse of the Canaille
4 Revelations
4 Zillah`s Tears

Action Modifier (8 cards)
8 Changeling

Reaction (14 cards)
5 Guard Dogs
9 Telepathic Counter

Combat (8 cards)
8 Chiropteran Marauder

Equipment (7 cards)
1 Bowl of Convergence
1 Femur of Toomler
1 IR Goggles
1 Leather Jacket
1 Living Manse
1 Sport Bike
1 Weirding Stone

Combo (6 cards)
6 Plasmic Form
Anonymous
July 14, 2005 1:03:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Ector wrote:
>>> My first deck was a Malk/!Malk S&B....

[lehrbuch]
>> Of course, you clearly ended up with little concept of...

[Ector]
> Looks like I became very famous if somebody remembers things I said
> several months ago (or even half a year ago).
> BTW, don't you think that moving from discussing the topic to
> discussing the opponent violates the rules of civilized discussion?

No.

Also, you introduced your own experience as an example, not me.

--
* lehrbuch (lehrbuch@gmail.com)
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 10:01:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

I think sometimes that I can seriously underestimate how quickly a new
player can pick up this game....or how long it could take :-)

I only need about four decks that I can use to teach new players. These
would be "loaner" decks for newbies, but still strong enough to go in
normal games.

Ideas?
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 12:01:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

d21_aod@yahoo.com.au wrote:
> I think sometimes that I can seriously underestimate how quickly a new
> player can pick up this game....or how long it could take :-)
>
> I only need about four decks that I can use to teach new players. These
> would be "loaner" decks for newbies, but still strong enough to go in
> normal games.
>
> Ideas?

As I said, you need to define more parameters. If these are strickly
loner decks, then you have no need to worry about card value. A S&B
deck is pretty easy to play, and a pure combat deck focused around 1-2
tricks (a sewer lid deck for example) really isn't all that hard
either. I mean, there are 5000 decks in the archive that just got
posted and probably a good 50% of them would be suitable.

Now, if you are talking about decks that you can give away, now you
have a parameter that would cause you to look outside of the existing
deck archives.
July 22, 2005 12:58:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

The Lasombra wrote:
> On 11 Jul 2005 17:06:08 -0700, d21_aod@yahoo.com.au wrote:
>
> >Combat Deck:
>> To be given to a new player?
>
> Absolutely not.
>
> Combat is the most involved segment of an action.
>
> 1) before combat
> 2) before range
> 3) determine range
> 4) before strikes
> 5) declare strikes
> 6) after strike declaration
> 7) resolve strikes
> 8) heal damage
> 9) gain additional strikes
> 10) repeat 1-8
> 11) press
> 12) end of round
> 13) repeat 2-12 if there was a press
>
> Bleeding or voting are your best choices. With master locations for
> intercept and some wakes. Keep the votes simple, and keep the bleeds
> one that do not bleed anyone besides the prey.

Hey,
New here, let me know when I screw up.

It is because combat is the most complex part of the game that it is
the right choice to start new players. I have taught several players
how to play, and always use combat as the corner stone. To keep it
accessible, I tend to start with small games (2-3 players), all with
combat decks, with no bounce, no votes, and no bleed modifiers except
for computer hacking. I often write down the steps for each round of
combat on a sheet of paper, and another list of the steps for the turn
(untap, master, minion...) and go over everything slowly.

Combat decks let you regulate the pace of the game by selectively
sending minions to the pavement, but not burning them. Voting is
introduced through diablerie, stealth vs. not stealth is introduced
through hunting and bleeding. The experienced players can keep things
level by showing a little restraint, playing with an open hand, giving
advice, and allowing new players to take back mistakes. Everything
gets covered. A side benefit (as I see it) is that these players tend
to see Dominate for the cheese factory it is.

When I send them out to a bigger game, it is typically with a toolbox
combat deck. I try to include some intercept and some rush, as well as
strong blood management so that they can survive sneak bleed as a
predator. A criticism I sometimes receive for this is that I myself
(and by extension, people I taught to play who use decks I built) do
not "put enough pressure on my prey." My views on this might highjack
the thread, so I won't belabor them except to say that jyhad ought to
be more than looking left and pressing on the accelerator.

The card access problem has been solved in my neck of the woods by
collective card ownership. The set is primarily cared for by myself
and another friend, but about five of us use it, and everyone
contributes what they can to its growth. I have a notebook to keep
track of longterm trades with other folks who don't want to join the
borg outright, but still see the advantages of collective ownership and
trading. So many decks are written down, and so few people want to
contest in most games, that it is seldom a problem to have one clan or
area that has many of its cards out in a deck.

If you really want to help out new players, give them unrestricted
access to your cards. It has worked well for me.

-Dave

It is hard to win with no minions.
July 22, 2005 9:30:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Two notes though:
>
> > My views on this might highjack
> > the thread, so I won't belabor them except to say that jyhad ought to
> > be more than looking left and pressing on the accelerator.
>
> I like people who play towards the left. Defeat your prey, withstand
> your predator, rinse and repeat. Sure it's easier if your prey has
> exhausted her resources and is all battered up, but then where's the
> challenge?

Rinse and repeat? Boring work for laundry.

It's too simplistic for me, because if you are only looking left, you
are essentially racing all the other players, and speed becomes a
paramount issue. I feel this leads to all kinds of turbo deck
nonsense, and reduces the parts of multiplayer that I find intriguing.
I also feel that the Speed is King view is unduly supported by time
limits in general, and the two hour time limit in particular. There
used to be a reason why it was called "The Eternal Struggle." Two
hours is not eternal enough for me.

I think gearing for quick sweeps lends itself to less interactive
decks. Cthulukitty went a few rounds with the locals here about cross
table stuff in a thread about an Una deck with 56 freak drives
(speaking of turbo nonsense). If everyone at the table is a good
player, and if everyone at the table has a decent deck, a game with a
little ebb and flow gives one the best chance to pick your window, and
outplay your opponents, rather than outdesigning them. Going cross
table helps create such windows. Design is neat, but playing is more
fun.

I realize that the above ifs are rather large, but even if there is a
cruddy player in a game (might not even be their fault- poor shuffle,
early mistake, unlucky contesting issue {I agree they are kind of fun})
it is helpful to trash on their predator some, rather than let them
roll through to an easy 6 pool, and an early lead in the "race." I
don't feel that going cross table is corner case, I think Garfield put
it in the game for a good reason, back before there were things like
"North American Qualifiers."

>
> I think contesting can be fun. I'm not saying the game should be full
> of it, but the occasional contesting really spices up stuff. >

Yeah, exploiting uniqueness is fun. I also like having a local group
that develops grudges, where people play similar decks often enough
that it gives a chance to use things like clan hosers. I also like
toolboxy combat decks because you can keep playing them; it doesn't
matter if your opponent knows what is in the deck, unlike trick decks.
I feel that the larger community is much more focused on tournaments
these days, though, so mining the same territory over and over can be
seen as a competitive disadvantage.

But when I play !T one too many times, I think it is classy for someone
to contest the fetish club, or bust out obsession.

-Dave

Its hard to win with no minions.
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 12:50:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On 21 Jul 2005 20:58:46 -0700, quickbeam <dcquickbeam@yahoo.com> wrote:

Nice post. Two notes though:

> My views on this might highjack
> the thread, so I won't belabor them except to say that jyhad ought to
> be more than looking left and pressing on the accelerator.

I like people who play towards the left. Defeat your prey, withstand
your predator, rinse and repeat. Sure it's easier if your prey has
exhausted her resources and is all battered up, but then where's the
challenge?

> So many decks are written down, and so few people want to
> contest in most games, that it is seldom a problem to have one clan or
> area that has many of its cards out in a deck.

I think contesting can be fun. I'm not saying the game should be full
of it, but the occasional contesting really spices up stuff. Makes you
value those instances when you just play a card and it *works*.

--
Bye,

Daneel
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 8:22:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

d21_aod@yahoo.com.au wrote:
> I think sometimes that I can seriously underestimate how quickly a new
> player can pick up this game....or how long it could take :-)
>
> I only need about four decks that I can use to teach new players. These
> would be "loaner" decks for newbies, but still strong enough to go in
> normal games.
>
> Ideas?

Are these slut decks that are meant to seduce totally virginal players
to the jyhad, or are they decks to be given to players who have a couple
of games under their belt, but don't have a strong grasp of the rules?

If the former, I suggest decks that include pretty cards, that do what
they say and are not too complex. If the later, it depends on the type
of player.

If they are some type of gamer geek that desperately wants to learn the
game, then I suggest decks that concentrate on whatever the player fails
to understand. So if she doesn't understand combat, yet (and wants to
understand combat), give her a combat deck to play, etc. But, if a
player is perfectly happy playing just a simple S&B deck, let them play
what they're comfortable with and try and patiently explain the rules as
and when they forget them. Remind them to read the rule book too.

Of course, a better way to teach semi-experienced players might be to
allow them to try and make their own decks from your collection.

Also, don't be too arrogant about your own knowledge of the game - this
is just a general comment, I have no idea about your situation. Just
because you're a prince (if you are) and read the newsgroup it doesn't
mean that the other players have to play exactly according to your
conception of style and strategy. If the players have a technical grasp
of the rules but you think They Are Not Playing Right (for example,
glorying in their use of irresponsible bleeding), don't get too worked
up about and just play your own game. If you win lots, they'll
presumably eventually drift towards your style.

--
* lehrbuch (lehrbuch@gmail.com)
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 11:00:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On 22 Jul 2005 05:30:10 -0700, quickbeam <dcquickbeam@yahoo.com> wrote:

> It's too simplistic for me, because if you are only looking left, you
> are essentially racing all the other players, and speed becomes a
> paramount issue. I feel this leads to all kinds of turbo deck
> nonsense, and reduces the parts of multiplayer that I find intriguing.
> I also feel that the Speed is King view is unduly supported by time
> limits in general, and the two hour time limit in particular. There
> used to be a reason why it was called "The Eternal Struggle." Two
> hours is not eternal enough for me.

Okay, you got it all backwards. Tournament rounds have a 2-hour time
limit. When I'm playing casual, and spend, say, three-and-a-half
hours playing, I'd much rather play two games than one.

I didn't really have ultraspeed decks in mind, really. I'm talking
about decks that have a reasonable chance of winning, and actually
DO something to try to win instead of just juggling the table and
then being at the right place at the right time when the GW falls.
I'm not saying that requires less skill than Going West; it's just
that it is generally more enjoyable to be playing with people who
actively play left.

> I think gearing for quick sweeps lends itself to less interactive
> decks. Cthulukitty went a few rounds with the locals here about cross
> table stuff in a thread about an Una deck with 56 freak drives
> (speaking of turbo nonsense). If everyone at the table is a good
> player, and if everyone at the table has a decent deck, a game with a
> little ebb and flow gives one the best chance to pick your window, and
> outplay your opponents, rather than outdesigning them. Going cross
> table helps create such windows. Design is neat, but playing is more
> fun.

You can outplay your opponents when you play at a higher speed. A single
cross-table rescue can balance a table in your way, without needing you
to slow down your forward momentum.

Note that I don't particularly enjoy playing against hyperaggressive
speed decks. It's just that I enjoy long, passive, fruitless tug-of-war
games even less than 5-minute "wow, I got bled for 29 in two turns"
games.

As for the design vs. play angle: it's a CCG for the design part. I'm in
it because I can build and play different decks. Play is cool, but it's
the deck construction that makes this game unique.

--
Bye,

Daneel
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 11:21:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

In message <1122035410.683571.8000@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
quickbeam <dcquickbeam@yahoo.com> writes:
>It's too simplistic for me, because if you are only looking left, you
>are essentially racing all the other players, and speed becomes a
>paramount issue.

Not necessarily.

You do need some eye to speed, that's true. But that's partly because
if someone else comes to the table with a really fast deck, you have to
be able to adapt to it.

But, if you can muster a sufficient turn of speed (which doesn't have to
be quick) and oust one player before it comes to last man standing, you
can potentially win any table, by getting 3 VP.

>I feel this leads to all kinds of turbo deck
>nonsense, and reduces the parts of multiplayer that I find intriguing.

It's not really nonsense, for a lot players, if it wins.

Also, defeating various turbo-decks can involve a lot of multiplayer
aspects, and many strong defensive tactics can stall a turbo deck.
Since they are typically exceptionally vulnerable to bad card flow, any
amount of pre-emptive combat (for instance) can cause havoc - they can't
typically block or defend themselves.

It is certainly possible to play highly defensive decks and do well, so
long as you can still apply pressure to your prey, particularly if your
brand of defence is flexible. e.g. pre-emptive rushing,
intercept+Eagle's Sight, Banishment, Protect Thine Own, or whatever else
takes your fancy.

>I also feel that the Speed is King view is unduly supported by time
>limits in general, and the two hour time limit in particular. There
>used to be a reason why it was called "The Eternal Struggle." Two
>hours is not eternal enough for me.

In tournaments, the main reason for this is practical i.e. if you're
booking a hall, bar, convention slot or whatever, you need to be able to
say "It'll take us X hours." Ditto, if people are travelling, they
often want to know how much they need to put in a parking meter or
whether they can get a train home that night.

If you're round a mate's house, do what you want.

Note also that tournament rounds have 2 hours as a minimum maximum time
limit. i.e. you can play for 3, 4, 5 hours a round if you want. Some
groups play tournaments over multiple days (e.g. once a week at a pub),
so you could easily run a particular tournament as being untimed,
effectively, by letting each round take a given night. A 2R+F multi-
judge tournament could be done pretty easily that way, with a final
arranged whenever was mutually convenient for the finalists.

--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
Anonymous
July 27, 2005 1:44:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Actually I think of two factors that probably won't change with the
Newbie decks.

a) The decks are "loaners" to newbies and semi-experienced players.
b) The decks should include a slut factor or be slut decks.

Any evil ideas?
!