Charging, leaping, and spring attack

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Glenn Dowdy wrote:
> "Werebat" <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:njrVe.13948$Cc5.9515@lakeread06...
>
>>
>>Charging is a full-round action. You can't charge through difficult
>>terrain like snow or rubble.
>>
>>The Leap Attack feat states that difficult terrain squares that a
>>character leaps over do not count against the charge.
>>
>>Question -- a character standing in the snow wants to make a leap attack
>>(charge) at an opponent ten feet away, who is also in the snow. Assuming
>>they make the difficult jump check for a ten-foot jump from a standing
>>position (thus, they don't actually pass through any difficult squares
>>that they are not leaping from, over, or into), can they pull it off? I
>>guess my question is, do squares leapt FROM/INTO interfere with the
>>charge? I'm thinking that I would allow it, but I'm not sure what the
>>"proper" interpretation of the rules is.
>>
>
> I now IYKWIM, and HTH, but what does FROM/INTO stand for? All I can get is:
>
> Frog Right Over Melee/Ignoring Nearby Terrain Obstacles, which seems to fit
> contextually, but I'm not sure. Anyone?

That's pretty funny, but no, I actually meant "from" and "into".

- Ron ^*^

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de wrote:
> Werebat wrote:
>
>>Charging is a full-round action. You can't charge through difficult
>>terrain like snow or rubble.
>>
>>The Leap Attack feat states that difficult terrain squares that a
>>character leaps over do not count against the charge.
>>
>>Question -- a character standing in the snow wants to make a leap attack
>>(charge) at an opponent ten feet away, who is also in the snow.
>>Assuming they make the difficult jump check for a ten-foot jump from a
>>standing position (thus, they don't actually pass through any difficult
>>squares that they are not leaping from, over, or into), can they pull it
>>off? I guess my question is, do squares leapt FROM/INTO interfere with
>>the charge? I'm thinking that I would allow it, but I'm not sure what
>>the "proper" interpretation of the rules is.
>
>
> I'd say FROM interfers and INTO doesn't. I would allow a PC to jump
> into
> without (additional) trouble.

See, I'd think the exact opposite. Jumping into a foot of standing
water seems like it would present more problems than jumping out of a
foot of standing water.


> If he starts from a difficult position
> like knee-deep in the snow. I'd penalyze the jump check to DC 38 may
> be:
> 30 (Standing Jump 15 feet) + 8 (Standing high jump 1 foot) = 38.
> 15 feet because it's the distance from center to center of the squares
> with two squares between them.

So, what you are saying is that you would allow it, with a penalty to
the jump check involved. I can dig it.

He only needs to jump 10 feet in order to charge, BTW (2 squares away).


>>Another question. A character with spring attack wants to charge and
>>then keep moving. Is this possible? Charge is a full round action, and
>>I'm not sure how this coincides with the wording of spring attack.
>
>
> Not possible IMO. Spring attack requires an attack action, Charge is a
> full-round action. They can't be combined.
> (Ride-by Attack sort of allows this trick for mounted combat.)

I think the wording of the rules backs you up. Too bad for all those
spring attack / leap attack barbies.

- Ron ^*^

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de wrote:
> Werebat wrote:
>> Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de wrote:
>>> Werebat wrote:
>>>
>>>> Charging is a full-round action. You can't charge through
>>>> difficult terrain like snow or rubble.
>>>>
>>>> The Leap Attack feat states that difficult terrain squares that a
>>>> character leaps over do not count against the charge.
>>>>
>>>> Question -- a character standing in the snow wants to make a leap
>>>> attack (charge) at an opponent ten feet away, who is also in the
>>>> snow. Assuming they make the difficult jump check for a ten-foot
>>>> jump from a standing position (thus, they don't actually pass
>>>> through any difficult squares that they are not leaping from,
>>>> over, or into), can they pull it off? I guess my question is, do
>>>> squares leapt FROM/INTO interfere with the charge? I'm thinking
>>>> that I would allow it, but I'm not sure what the "proper"
>>>> interpretation of the rules is.
>>>
>>>
>>> I'd say FROM interfers and INTO doesn't. I would allow a PC to jump
>>> into
>>> without (additional) trouble.
>>
>> See, I'd think the exact opposite. Jumping into a foot of standing
>> water seems like it would present more problems than jumping out of a
>> foot of standing water.
>
> I would like to see you demonstrate what you mean :-)
> Jumping into a barrel of beer is more difficult than jumping out?
>
>>>> Another question. A character with spring attack wants to charge
>>>> and then keep moving. Is this possible? Charge is a full round
>>>> action, and I'm not sure how this coincides with the wording of
>>>> spring attack.
>>>
>>>
>>> Not possible IMO. Spring attack requires an attack action, Charge
>>> is a full-round action. They can't be combined.
>>> (Ride-by Attack sort of allows this trick for mounted combat.)
>>
>> I think the wording of the rules backs you up. Too bad for all those
>> spring attack / leap attack barbies.
>
> All those barbies? Where are they? I must live in the wrong place...

Just wait until Christmas. You won't be able to move in the toy departments
for all the shelves full of new Leap Attack Barbie and her wide range of
accessories. Then next season, it's Spring Attack Barbie.

--
Mark.

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Werebat" <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote in message
news:njrVe.13948$Cc5.9515@lakeread06...
> Another question. A character with spring attack wants to charge and then
> keep moving. Is this possible?

No. However, there is a Green Ronin book (Plot & Poison) which has a Spring
Charge feat.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de wrote:
> Werebat wrote:
>
>>Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Werebat wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Werebat wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Charging is a full-round action. You can't charge through difficult
>>>>>>terrain like snow or rubble.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The Leap Attack feat states that difficult terrain squares that a
>>>>>>character leaps over do not count against the charge.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Question -- a character standing in the snow wants to make a leap attack
>>>>>>(charge) at an opponent ten feet away, who is also in the snow.
>>>>>>Assuming they make the difficult jump check for a ten-foot jump from a
>>>>>>standing position (thus, they don't actually pass through any difficult
>>>>>>squares that they are not leaping from, over, or into), can they pull it
>>>>>>off? I guess my question is, do squares leapt FROM/INTO interfere with
>>>>>>the charge? I'm thinking that I would allow it, but I'm not sure what
>>>>>>the "proper" interpretation of the rules is.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I'd say FROM interfers and INTO doesn't. I would allow a PC to jump
>>>>>into
>>>>>without (additional) trouble.
>>>>
>>>>See, I'd think the exact opposite. Jumping into a foot of standing
>>>>water seems like it would present more problems than jumping out of a
>>>>foot of standing water.
>>>
>>>
>>>I would like to see you demonstrate what you mean :-)
>>>Jumping into a barrel of beer is more difficult than jumping out?
>>
>>Who said anything about a barrel?
>
>
> Well, that has been me. Is it a trick question?
>
>
>>I'm talking about making a charge
>>through snow/swamp terrain by leaping over it. You can't see what's
>>under the debris you jump into, but you know what the solid ground is
>>like in the square you start in.
>>
>>This becomes obvious if you consider jumping into the debris from solid
>>ground, or out of the debris onto solid ground. One is clearly more
>>risky than the other.
>
>
> More risky, ok. But I think that's not the deciding factor.
> The DM could demand a Balance check for a save landing afterwords.
> For the jump charge it's irrelevant IMO how risky the landing point is.
> I imagine the attack happens at the end of the jump just *before*
> landing
> (like these cinematic flying kicks in wuxia movies).
>
> Standing on debris, swampy ground, ice, clammy snow or in the brambles
> hampers the ability to move or jump out considerably.
> If you jump on someone who stands in a similar environment you have
> no problem until you land - when you already made your attack,
> if you agree with me on that point.

I do see your point, and we have in fact been ruling that the attack
comes before the landing IMC (the party Leap Attacker jumped off a
balcony and attacked a Huge monster on the way down before taking damage
from the fall).

I like the idea of a balance check if you jump into debris/swamp/etc.
So, a penalty to the jump check for jumping OUT of difficult terrain,
and a balance check to avoid slipping and falling if you jump INTO
difficult terrain, then? And either way, if all of your movement is
through jumping, you get the Leap Attack. Yeah, I think I can dig it.

What happens when some wag decides to take a series of 5' hops through
the snow up to within 10' of the target and THEN tries to make a Leap
Attack? I'd rule against this because it seems like a goofy rules-rape.
Only one jump per charge for Leap Attack?

- Ron ^*^

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de wrote:
> Werebat wrote:
>
>>What happens when some wag decides to take a series of 5' hops through
>>the snow up to within 10' of the target and THEN tries to make a Leap
>>Attack? I'd rule against this because it seems like a goofy rules-rape.
>
>
> Why? Tarzan jumps from crocodile to crocodile across the river
> and leaps at the evil poachers...
>
> Seriously, what's the benefit of hopping instead of walking/running?

You get to pass through difficult terrain without suffering the move
penalty or having your charge disrupted.


> Doesn't matter how he moves through the snow, if his total movement
> allows him to reach the foe with that final leap, I think.

Well, we're proposing that it does. See above.


> The 10 feet at the end should be enough to allow a charge with
> Leap Attack (I don't know the wording of the feat).

The wording of the feat is that it works exactly like charge, except
that difficult terrain that you jump over doesn't count as ruining the
charge.

It doesn't mention difficult terrain that you jump out of or into, which
is the subject of this threadlet.


> Before he gets there he'd have to make all kinds of Balance and/or
> Jump checks.

Because it's trivial to get your Jump skill high enough to make 5-foot
hops across, say, sixty feet of marsh. Ditto for the Balance checks.

- Ron ^*^

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Werebat wrote:
>
>
> Charging is a full-round action. You can't charge through difficult
> terrain like snow or rubble.
>
> The Leap Attack feat states that difficult terrain squares that a
> character leaps over do not count against the charge.
>
> Question -- a character standing in the snow wants to make a leap attack
> (charge) at an opponent ten feet away, who is also in the snow. Assuming
> they make the difficult jump check for a ten-foot jump from a standing
> position (thus, they don't actually pass through any difficult squares
> that they are not leaping from, over, or into), can they pull it off? I
> guess my question is, do squares leapt FROM/INTO interfere with the
> charge? I'm thinking that I would allow it, but I'm not sure what the
> "proper" interpretation of the rules is.

Technically, each square moved into has its own movement cost and you
pay that cost no matter how you enter that square--jumping only lets you
ignore the cost of squares you pass over, not land in. However, it
seems OK within the spirit of the rules to allow this with, perhaps, a
Balance check at the end of the jump to keep your footing.

Note that there are ways to ignore those penalties (being an Elocator,
for example) so it's not an absolute penalty.

> Another question. A character with spring attack wants to charge and
> then keep moving. Is this possible? Charge is a full round action, and
> I'm not sure how this coincides with the wording of spring attack.
>
> - Ron ^*^
>

No, since Spring Attack requires taking an attack action, which you
can't do in the same round as a full-round action.

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Werebat wrote:
>
>
> Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de wrote:
>
>> Werebat wrote:
>>
>>> Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Werebat wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Werebat wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Charging is a full-round action. You can't charge through difficult
>>>>>>> terrain like snow or rubble.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Leap Attack feat states that difficult terrain squares that a
>>>>>>> character leaps over do not count against the charge.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Question -- a character standing in the snow wants to make a leap
>>>>>>> attack
>>>>>>> (charge) at an opponent ten feet away, who is also in the snow.
>>>>>>> Assuming they make the difficult jump check for a ten-foot jump
>>>>>>> from a
>>>>>>> standing position (thus, they don't actually pass through any
>>>>>>> difficult
>>>>>>> squares that they are not leaping from, over, or into), can they
>>>>>>> pull it
>>>>>>> off? I guess my question is, do squares leapt FROM/INTO
>>>>>>> interfere with
>>>>>>> the charge? I'm thinking that I would allow it, but I'm not sure
>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>> the "proper" interpretation of the rules is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd say FROM interfers and INTO doesn't. I would allow a PC to jump
>>>>>> into
>>>>>> without (additional) trouble.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> See, I'd think the exact opposite. Jumping into a foot of standing
>>>>> water seems like it would present more problems than jumping out of a
>>>>> foot of standing water.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would like to see you demonstrate what you mean :-)
>>>> Jumping into a barrel of beer is more difficult than jumping out?
>>>
>>>
>>> Who said anything about a barrel?
>>
>>
>>
>> Well, that has been me. Is it a trick question?
>>
>>
>>> I'm talking about making a charge
>>> through snow/swamp terrain by leaping over it. You can't see what's
>>> under the debris you jump into, but you know what the solid ground is
>>> like in the square you start in.
>>>
>>> This becomes obvious if you consider jumping into the debris from solid
>>> ground, or out of the debris onto solid ground. One is clearly more
>>> risky than the other.
>>
>>
>>
>> More risky, ok. But I think that's not the deciding factor.
>> The DM could demand a Balance check for a save landing afterwords.
>> For the jump charge it's irrelevant IMO how risky the landing point is.
>> I imagine the attack happens at the end of the jump just *before*
>> landing
>> (like these cinematic flying kicks in wuxia movies).
>>
>> Standing on debris, swampy ground, ice, clammy snow or in the brambles
>> hampers the ability to move or jump out considerably.
>> If you jump on someone who stands in a similar environment you have
>> no problem until you land - when you already made your attack,
>> if you agree with me on that point.
>
>
> I do see your point, and we have in fact been ruling that the attack
> comes before the landing IMC (the party Leap Attacker jumped off a
> balcony and attacked a Huge monster on the way down before taking damage
> from the fall).
>
> I like the idea of a balance check if you jump into debris/swamp/etc.
> So, a penalty to the jump check for jumping OUT of difficult terrain,
> and a balance check to avoid slipping and falling if you jump INTO
> difficult terrain, then? And either way, if all of your movement is
> through jumping, you get the Leap Attack. Yeah, I think I can dig it.
>
> What happens when some wag decides to take a series of 5' hops through
> the snow up to within 10' of the target and THEN tries to make a Leap
> Attack? I'd rule against this because it seems like a goofy rules-rape.
> Only one jump per charge for Leap Attack?
>
> - Ron ^*^
>

Which is one reason to not allow entered square immunity from the
difficult terrain rule.