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Criteria for Proposed Rotating NAC City Selection

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Anonymous
July 20, 2005 1:55:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

For those jumping in late...

The V:TES North Americian Championship (NAC) is currently held at
GenCon Indy each year. Some players are proposing that this event
rotate around North America. I have no knowledge of WW's opinion on
this matter. I'm sure the powers that be will get wind of the proposal,
though.

*If* White Wolf were to decide that they want to rotate the NAC, what
criteria would we want WW to use when determining which city would host
the NAC?

For the purpose of this thread, let's try to avoid discussing:
1) Whether or not the NAC should move;
2) How important each criteria is relative to one another (we can
discuss that separately)

Just list the factors you personally find most important (in no
particular order).

I'll get us started:

Air Travel (venue proximity to airports and cost)
Accomodations
(a variety of price and quality options in proximity to venue) Cost
of Events
Suitability of the venue
(room size, hours, lighting, tables, etc.)
Number of local players
Quality of WoN proposal
Quality of events planned
(number, variety, appeal to non-qualifiers)
Variety of food (types and cost) available near venue
Drinking Opportunities
(proximity to venue, BYO allowed?)
Outside attractions (tourist stuff?)

-Robert
Anonymous
July 20, 2005 3:17:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

How about:

Exposure to the general gaming community?

I think the last thing we should do is burrow ourselves into a hole
somewhere for our biggest event of the year. Now, I do think that it's
possible we're currently getting "lost in the shuffle" at GenCon as far
as publicity goes, but we need to consider how best to grow the game.
That's our job as Princes when we run local events, so it should also
be a goal of our region-wide and continent-wide events.

Eric Simon
Prince of Chicago
Anonymous
July 20, 2005 3:51:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Robert Goudie wrote:
> I'll get us started:
>
> Air Travel (venue proximity to airports and cost)
> Accomodations
> (a variety of price and quality options in proximity to venue) Cost
> of Events
> Suitability of the venue
> (room size, hours, lighting, tables, etc.)
> Number of local players
> Quality of WoN proposal
> Quality of events planned
> (number, variety, appeal to non-qualifiers)
> Variety of food (types and cost) available near venue
> Drinking Opportunities
> (proximity to venue, BYO allowed?)
> Outside attractions (tourist stuff?)
>
> -Robert

I would specifically say "Family friendly" attractions for VTES
players' families. Excuse my ignorance but does Indianapolis have
anything unique that families might enjoy? E.g.

San Diego: Zoo, Beach
DC: Lots....(but staying there can be pricey)
Denver: Zoo, Rocky Mtns
Philly: Historic US sites
Boston: Historic US sites (Home of the Sox and Pats)


-tpl
Anonymous
July 20, 2005 4:02:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

volya42@yahoo.com wrote:
> How about:
>
> Exposure to the general gaming community?
>
> I think the last thing we should do is burrow ourselves into a hole
> somewhere for our biggest event of the year. Now, I do think that it's
> possible we're currently getting "lost in the shuffle" at GenCon as far
> as publicity goes, but we need to consider how best to grow the game.
> That's our job as Princes when we run local events, so it should also
> be a goal of our region-wide and continent-wide events.

I think the exposure issues are almost meta-criteria whose importance
will likely be imparted to us by WW--long before we get down to the
nitty gritty of deciding which city will host. If WW decides that con
exposure is critical for our "biggest event of the year" then they'll
probably just require the NAC to be at a big con or leave it at GenCon.


However, if WW decides exposure isn't required for a city's proposal
they could still use it as a criteria in choosing among cities (favor
one over the other because of one's ability to provide exposure) as
you've suggested.

-Robert
Anonymous
July 20, 2005 5:22:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

I think it would be important to include having strict deadlines for
proposals and choosing sites with much advance notice. People need to
get time off work and book travel. I do think that having it rotating
could work out better for the vtes calander. being able to determine
our own time, making sure everyone gets their qualifiers in, not having
to have back to back qualifiers or same day ones to maximize
avaliability. making sure the NAC was coinsiding with our set
releases. (like making sure that its moved back till all cards released
that year are tournament legal) in fact it would be neat if it was
moved back a month. whatever new set can be released at gencon, there
can be lots of sealed/draft type events and it can be focused on the
new cards. then a month later is the NAC and the new set is legal
putting everyone on their toes.

safety should also be considered when choosing a NAC. alot of people
will be there without their cars. will the weather at the location or
crime make it easy to walk around?

quality of judges. is it really fun to have the NAC without LSJ?

access to communications. Is there wireless internet access?
phone/cell phone avalibility?

is there spectator access? what if you bring your kids, your dog,
homeless people on the street. do you need a $60 badge for everyone or
do only players have to pay? (this could actually be important since
everyone seems to have left out the possibility that which the NAC
rotates around it could be switched to another event over then gencon)

are their hot girls there? can the organizers provide us with french
maids or back rubs? if not will they give out the back rubs we are
used to getting? will robert goudie dress up in a french maid costume
and rub my back?

anyway these are the things i thought of off the top of my head.
Anonymous
July 20, 2005 6:01:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

The NosferatuStuff wrote:
> I think it would be important to include having strict deadlines for
> proposals and choosing sites with much advance notice.

Absolutely.
[clip]

> safety should also be considered when choosing a NAC. alot of people
> will be there without their cars. will the weather at the location or
> crime make it easy to walk around?
>
> quality of judges. is it really fun to have the NAC without LSJ?
>
> access to communications. Is there wireless internet access?
> phone/cell phone avalibility?
>
> is there spectator access? what if you bring your kids, your dog,
> homeless people on the street. do you need a $60 badge for everyone or
> do only players have to pay? (this could actually be important since
> everyone seems to have left out the possibility that which the NAC
> rotates around it could be switched to another event over then gencon)
>
> are their hot girls there? can the organizers provide us with french
> maids or back rubs? if not will they give out the back rubs we are
> used to getting? will robert goudie dress up in a french maid costume
> and rub my back?

You betcha big boy! You'll have to shave that hairy back first but then
I'm all over it!

> anyway these are the things i thought of off the top of my head.

Good stuff (save for the goudie + french maid costume + backrub stuff.
eeeww.). Thank you mr steele.

-Robert
Anonymous
July 20, 2005 6:07:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Availability of hotel space
Suitability of venue (including access around the clock ideally)
Proximity to other major urban areas (a NAC in Denver might not be so
good, for instance)

Those are the big three in my mind.

It seems to me that it really might be best to keep the NAC at a
convention. Convention cities have been specifically chosen to meet
most of the criteria that are being discussed in this post. They have
large airports, they have a variety of hotels in several price ranges,
there are often times tourist attractions nearby, etc etc.

Additionally, it is worth considering that if the NAC was moved out of
a convention setting, then a lot of the "automatic" support would be
lost. By this I mean things like cleaning services, tables and chairs
being provided, all day/night play options and the like. Also, there
is some basic advertising that is included when you have an event at a
con. People at a con may well flip through the registration book and
say, "Oh, hey! I didn't realize they were having the North American
Championships for VtES here!" That ideally grows interest and makes
sure that people don't forget that the game is played (since it seems
to be forgotten...I asked a local store owner the other day if they had
Vampire cards...they replied, "Is that game still around?")

A possible middle ground solution may very well be to rotate the NAC
around to different conventions on a yearly basis. There are enough
major cons in different areas to do that I think: Gen Con is in Indy,
Origins is in Columbus, Dragon Con is in Atlanta, Gen Con So Cal is in
Anaheim (this year). As long as you don't have the NAC in Columbus and
then Indy in back to back years, it moves around the country pretty
well. You could cover both coasts and have two locations that are
reasonably centrally located.

And thus, my four ha'pennies have been contributed.

TTFn
Anonymous
July 20, 2005 8:24:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

> Drinking Opportunities
> (proximity to venue, BYO allowed?)

It's the little things that matter. I'm touched. :) 



--
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
Anonymous
July 20, 2005 8:58:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Robert Goudie <robertg@vtesinla.org> wrote:
> For those jumping in late...
>
> The V:TES North Americian Championship (NAC) is currently held at
> GenCon Indy each year. Some players are proposing that this event
> rotate around North America. I have no knowledge of WW's opinion on
> this matter. I'm sure the powers that be will get wind of the
> proposal, though.
>
> *If* White Wolf were to decide that they want to rotate the NAC, what
> criteria would we want WW to use when determining which city would
> host the NAC?

My apologies for 'stealing' the subject, but what about leaving the NAC at
GenCon and *create* a United States Championship which would rotate from
con to con?

> -Robert

Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Anonymous
July 20, 2005 9:16:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Frederick Scott wrote:
> "Stefan Ferenci" <nospam@thankyou.com> wrote in message
> news:42dec469$0$28520$3b214f66@usenet.univie.ac.at...
> > but right now its only a small footnote during the big gencon, whit a
> > lot of the vtes playing happening in the back room of the ram. not
> > really a sight that would invite a mag to write about it. if it where a
> > standalone event with a nice decoration at a nice location..... who knows
>
> That's all very silly. There's absolutely nothing about such an event that
> makes it more or less newsworthy if it were held away from GenCon.

It's not really "newsworthiness" that I'm concerned about. People know
that games have tournaments because those tournaments are visible in
common "gamer" places and events. Wherever we go, we have to maintain
that visibility, or we're doomed to always having to answer the
question, "Jyhad? Is that game still around?" I don't know if GenCon
is the best place to get that visibility - people are kind of
overloaded there. I think it would be nice to have a relatively
sizable con where we were one of the biggest events. Not sure how
possible that is, but that was kind of the thrust of my point.

Eric Simon
Prince of Chicago
Anonymous
July 20, 2005 9:44:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

<volya42@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1121905005.593834.37210@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> It's not really "newsworthiness" that I'm concerned about. People know
> that games have tournaments because those tournaments are visible in
> common "gamer" places and events. Wherever we go, we have to maintain
> that visibility, or we're doomed to always having to answer the
> question, "Jyhad? Is that game still around?" I don't know if GenCon
> is the best place to get that visibility - people are kind of
> overloaded there. I think it would be nice to have a relatively
> sizable con where we were one of the biggest events. Not sure how
> possible that is, but that was kind of the thrust of my point.

If logic worked, we should hold the NAC at some two-bit convention in the
most rural area we could find. One where the attendence would quadruple
just from the influx of VtES players. I'm sure we'd be the toast of the
convention - but who would hear of us outside of the other two dozen or
so attendees not there for VtES

I realize you're trying to carve out some middle ground where the NAC
would be the most visible thing in whatever is the largest convention
we could find that allowed that situation. But I don't even think such
a 'balance' concept works. I think you just make a big splash in a
relatively small place and, in the end, get less exposure for your
effort. At GenCon, it's true that VtES may seem lost in the crowd
but with the entire gaming industry there and with so many gamers from
so many places being present, I think it's still works out to be more
exposure in the end.

Fred
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 1:13:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Robert Goudie wrote:
> volya42@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>How about:
>>
>>Exposure to the general gaming community?
>>



maybe vtes could get some exposure if we were able to get gaming
magazines to write an article about a crazy week long vtes event!
and as i suggested leaving gencon with the US Nationals would keep vtes
on the radar at gen con

Stefan
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 1:13:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Stefan Ferenci" <nospam@thankyou.com> wrote in message news:42dea22c$0$28520$3b214f66@usenet.univie.ac.at...
> Robert Goudie wrote:
>> volya42@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>>How about:
>>>
>>>Exposure to the general gaming community?
>
> maybe vtes could get some exposure if we were able to get gaming
> magazines to write an article about a crazy week long vtes event!

Since there's already this crazy week long vtes right now, may we
already can.

Fred
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 1:14:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

tobinator wrote:
>

> Boston: Historic US sites (Home of the Sox and Pats)
>
>
> -tpl
>

yeah those lousy NE sports teams (damn cant say that anymore)

stefan ;-)
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 1:19:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Robert Goudie wrote:


>
> Just list the factors you personally find most important (in no
> particular order).
>



tourney and hotel at the same complex
major airport (i have the feeling every small town in the states has an
airfield, so major means it has gates ;-) )
dedicated organizer
size of the local playgroup (in the greater area)
location where we could play 24h non stop
food venues in the area
some non vtes stuff in the near vincinity

stefan
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 3:39:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Frederick Scott wrote:
> "Stefan Ferenci" <nospam@thankyou.com> wrote in message news:42dea22c$0$28520$3b214f66@usenet.univie.ac.at...
>
>>Robert Goudie wrote:
>>
>>>volya42@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>How about:
>>>>
>>>>Exposure to the general gaming community?
>>
>>maybe vtes could get some exposure if we were able to get gaming
>>magazines to write an article about a crazy week long vtes event!
>
>
> Since there's already this crazy week long vtes right now, may we
> already can.
>
> Fred
>
>

but right now its only a small footnote during the big gencon, whit a
lot of the vtes playing happening in the back room of the ram. not
really a sight that would invite a mag to write about it. if it where a
standalone event with a nice decoration at a nice location..... who knows


stefan
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 3:39:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Stefan Ferenci" <nospam@thankyou.com> wrote in message
news:42dec469$0$28520$3b214f66@usenet.univie.ac.at...
> Frederick Scott wrote:
>> "Stefan Ferenci" <nospam@thankyou.com> wrote in message
news:42dea22c$0$28520$3b214f66@usenet.univie.ac.at...
>>>>>How about:
>>>>>
>>>>>Exposure to the general gaming community?
>>>
>>>maybe vtes could get some exposure if we were able to get gaming
>>>magazines to write an article about a crazy week long vtes event!
>>
>> Since there's already this crazy week long vtes event right now,
>> maybe we already can.
>
> but right now its only a small footnote during the big gencon, whit a
> lot of the vtes playing happening in the back room of the ram. not
> really a sight that would invite a mag to write about it. if it where a
> standalone event with a nice decoration at a nice location..... who knows

That's all very silly. There's absolutely nothing about such an event that
makes it more or less newsworthy if it were held away from GenCon.

Except maybe one thing: if splitting the NAC away from GenCon were to make
the Week of Nightmares to be no longer viable - an eventuality that seems
quite possible to me - then it becomes less newsworthy because it no longer
exists.

Fred
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 10:59:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Frederick Scott wrote:
> <volya42@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1121905005.593834.37210@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> > It's not really "newsworthiness" that I'm concerned about. People know
> > that games have tournaments because those tournaments are visible in
> > common "gamer" places and events. Wherever we go, we have to maintain
> > that visibility, or we're doomed to always having to answer the
> > question, "Jyhad? Is that game still around?" I don't know if GenCon
> > is the best place to get that visibility - people are kind of
> > overloaded there. I think it would be nice to have a relatively
> > sizable con where we were one of the biggest events. Not sure how
> > possible that is, but that was kind of the thrust of my point.
>
> If logic worked, we should hold the NAC at some two-bit convention in the
> most rural area we could find. One where the attendence would quadruple
> just from the influx of VtES players. I'm sure we'd be the toast of the
> convention - but who would hear of us outside of the other two dozen or
> so attendees not there for VtES
>
> I realize you're trying to carve out some middle ground where the NAC
> would be the most visible thing in whatever is the largest convention
> we could find that allowed that situation. But I don't even think such
> a 'balance' concept works. I think you just make a big splash in a
> relatively small place and, in the end, get less exposure for your
> effort. At GenCon, it's true that VtES may seem lost in the crowd
> but with the entire gaming industry there and with so many gamers from
> so many places being present, I think it's still works out to be more
> exposure in the end.

Hmm. Hard to gauge that, really. Anyway, my main point was to include
this as a criterion for determining locations with a possible rotating
schedule. To put it plainly - NAC in Atlanta as a discrete event is
bad, NAC in Atlanta at DragonCon is good. There are other reasons to
tie into an existing event that other people have mentioned in this
thread, but I was just worried about the prospect of going off on our
own and never being heard from by the gaming community again.

Eric Simon
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 12:22:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Frederick Scott wrote:

> Please note the difference between the NAC itself and the Week of Nightmares.
> I have no doubt a rotating NAC would prove viable at some level, even if I
> don't like it as much. To clarify what I was expressing doubt about above
> is whether the rotating NAC would be enough of an attraction to support an
> entire Week of Nightmares along with it (unless it were attached to some other
> large convention as David Zopf proposed).

I think a WoN to a detached NAC would be totally viable. All this
discussion about casual V:TES players at GenCon is out the window when
it comes to a WoN. Everyone who attends is already planning on spending
the whole time playing V:TES and has decided that it isn't enough--so
let's add a few days onto the beginning of it. I don't understand why
you think these hardcore group of players shy away from a WoN attached
to a rotating and detached NAC?

Maybe you're wondering whether the "Milwaukee big WoN" could ever
repeat itself at a rotating NAC that's detached from a con. I don't
know about that one. Seems we can't repeat that in Indy either.

-Robert
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 12:55:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Robert Goudie" <robertg@vtesinla.org> wrote in message
news:1121959327.562688.50980@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Frederick Scott wrote:
>> To clarify what I was expressing doubt about above
>> is whether the rotating NAC would be enough of an attraction to support an
>> entire Week of Nightmares along with it (unless it were attached to some other
>> large convention as David Zopf proposed).
>
> I think a WoN to a detached NAC would be totally viable. All this
> discussion about casual V:TES players at GenCon is out the window when
> it comes to a WoN. Everyone who attends is already planning on spending
> the whole time playing V:TES and has decided that it isn't enough--so
> let's add a few days onto the beginning of it. I don't understand why
> you think these hardcore group of players shy away from a WoN attached
> to a rotating and detached NAC?

The reason hardcore players would shy away from a WoN is if not enough
other people showed up to make it enough fun. I'm sorry, I just disagree
that one has to intend to spend the whole time at GenCon playing VtES in
order to decide to attend WoN. I think it makes total sense to want to
attend GenCon for _all_ the attractions at GenCon: the opportunity to
play other games and to attend with friends who might not be into VtES
but who will attend to play other games, the dealer rooms, the lectures
and other non-game events, and so forth - and still show up early for the
pickup VtES gaming you can get at Week of Nightmares. And I think you're
going to lose people who think about it that way and thus sap WoN of
some of its attendence. Given lessened attendence, will it be viable?
I really don't know. Frankly, I have my doubts.

> Maybe you're wondering whether the "Milwaukee big WoN" could ever
> repeat itself at a rotating NAC that's detached from a con. I don't
> know about that one. Seems we can't repeat that in Indy either.

I wasn't aware the Indy WoN was disappointing by comparison. That makes
me even more dubious.

Fred
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 1:05:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Perhaps if Mr Scott would speak in any terms other than "if" and
"maybe" then people would have something else to respond to. It is a
irrefutable claim that holding an event somewhere other then gencon is
cheaper. I can go look up hotel costs, gencon entrant fees, and flight
information to indy. I can compare it to costs for a facility in
atlanta and see which is cheaper. Hiding behind opinions and "if" and
"maybe" will get us no where. MAYBE we will get 10x the exposure
holding the NAC at my house. IF we get an advertisement on the moon
more people would notice VTES then hanging out upstairs in small
meeting rooms at the indy convention center.

I "think"(just as unarguable as "if" and "maybe") that the stefan is
right and fred is being totally close minded to the thought of moving
the NAC. What i want is to know why? because maybe we will lose some
ad space? because maybe people will have to travel somewhere new?
maybe his brother lives in indy and its easy for him to get there? all
these maybe's and if's are starting to totally lose their credibility.
How about we stick to what we KNOW.

I KNOW that gencon is more expensive then VTES at a hotel. I know this
because i have played games at several hotels and never incured costs
like i have at gencon.

I KNOW that vtes players will show up with or without the possibility
of advertising the game. they show up for WoN 4-5 days before anyone
would possibly learn about the game. So the actually players aren't
that concerned with being living ads.

I KNOW that vtes takes up all of my time at gencon. I can just look at
the scheduel of the events, compare it to the overall of gencon, and
realize that I'm never going to be able to jump in on a 4 hour settler
tournament or a 6 hour LARP.

I also KNOW that the europeans have been rotating their championship
and people still manage to show up. Is that better then having it at
gencon? i dont know that, but that is what we should be exploring now.
figure out what we can actually prove and stop speculating that
"maybe" everyone will leave and no new players will join and the world
will end tomorrow.

I KNOW that there are things that I would look for in a NAC that gencon
does not offer, like many of the things listed under this topic...the
criteria for selecting a city to host the NAC IF it were rotating.
Things like variety of locations. I KNOW that getting to indy is not
possible for everyone, and having the NAC in LA would allow a whole
group of qualified people to play that cant if its always stuck in
gencon. Can we measure advertisment and spectacle at gencon, yes we
can. does it help to constantly distract from constructive discussion
about provable pro's and con's of moving the NAC, no it doesnt. None
of the stuff I have seen anyone seriously cite as a criteria for
holding the NAC is intangible. everything people want, transportation,
hotels, cost savings, family friendly...all of those can be looked for
in cities. those things can be shown. can we prove that 'maybe' if
we'd have had the NAC at gencon 06 400 people would have started to
play VTES...no that is totally unprovable any more then if we'd have
had it in detroit. since there is no way to know what would have or
could possibly happen I suggest we stick to what is logically and
logistically provable. Balance the pro's and con's of all suggestions
about the fate of the NAC and decide which one is best.

There are actually 3 possible scenarios that need to be explored:
1) NAC stays at gencon cause gencon is great
2) NAC rotates around to different cities
3) NAC moves from gencon, but does not rotate around because a
different site is selected to better meet the needs of the game

It seems to me that option 2 and 3 are being dismissed because 'its
always been at gencon' even though white wolf has proven their
flexibility to try new things. 2 day championships, holding the NAC
sunday, having the qualifier at night, changing the qualification
system numerous times. It sounds like white wolf is far less afraid to
try something new like rotating the NAC then some of our more vocal
doomsayers on the newsgroup. But this last paragraph is really just my
opinion and not really arguable about validity is it so i'll use the
LSJ "if" and "maybe" immediate denial of responsibility based on
personal opinion.
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 1:35:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Frederick Scott wrote:
> "Robert Goudie" <robertg@vtesinla.org> wrote in message
> The reason hardcore players would shy away from a WoN is if not enough
> other people showed up to make it enough fun. I'm sorry, I just disagree
> that one has to intend to spend the whole time at GenCon playing VtES in
> order to decide to attend WoN.

I'm not saying that one *has to* have that intention. It isn't a
requirement. I'm saying that the people who show up for the WoN *are*
intending to spend the whole time playing VtES. Am I wrong?

> And I think you're
> going to lose people who think about it that way and thus sap WoN of
> some of its attendence. Given lessened attendence, will it be viable?
> I really don't know. Frankly, I have my doubts.
>
> > Maybe you're wondering whether the "Milwaukee big WoN" could ever
> > repeat itself at a rotating NAC that's detached from a con. I don't
> > know about that one. Seems we can't repeat that in Indy either.
>
> I wasn't aware the Indy WoN was disappointing by comparison. That makes
> me even more dubious.

Ah, that's what I thought. The big Milwaukee WoN was special magic
having something to do with all the planets aligning or something. For
that magic to repeat itself we'd have to again have everything fall
perfectly into place.

Not sure why your more dubious. It's almost as though you've got GenCon
on a pedestal and are thinking that "if even the mighty GenCon can't
generate a 50+ attendee WoN then what chance would we have at a
rotating NAC not attached to a con?" I imagine a fantastic V:TES only
event (superior to GenCon) that just knocks people's socks off and then
a successful WoN looks reasonable. I'll have an easier time aligning
the planets again for a massive WoN when I can control things like
"hotel and gaming space at same location". Notice that the most
successful WoN was when we could play and sleep in the same place and
the Con itself was a 20 minute drive away. Also recall that as soon as
a con event ended we all sprinted back to the vans to get to the WoN.

Hell, I'll betcha I could even setup a successful NAC/WoN at the
Milwaukee Comfort Suites and make it better for the players than GenCon
Indy. :) 

-Robert
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 1:43:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Robert Goudie wrote:

> Just list the factors you personally find most important (in no
> particular order).

- Air Travel (cost of flights. proximity of airport isn´t that important)
- Variety of accomodations, preferrably very near to the tournament location
- Good venue (enough space, good tables, noise level)
- Size and Activity of the local playgroup (AKA organizers ;-) )
- On-the-spot attractions for
non-qualified/non-playing/finished-with-playing players
- Area (=tourist) attractions for those staying a few days longer
(except the WoN)
- Variety,proximity and pricing of food and drinking venues

Johannes
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 2:41:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Robert Goudie" <robertg@vtesinla.org> wrote in message news:1121963756.895156.283870@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Frederick Scott wrote:
>> "Robert Goudie" <robertg@vtesinla.org> wrote in message
>> The reason hardcore players would shy away from a WoN is if not enough
>> other people showed up to make it enough fun. I'm sorry, I just disagree
>> that one has to intend to spend the whole time at GenCon playing VtES in
>> order to decide to attend WoN.
>
> I'm not saying that one *has to* have that intention. It isn't a
> requirement. I'm saying that the people who show up for the WoN *are*
> intending to spend the whole time playing VtES. Am I wrong?

I think _some_ people do that, yes. But not all. And the ones who don't
are the ones you'll lose automatically - making it less attractive for
ones who do, in turn.

>> I wasn't aware the Indy WoN was disappointing by comparison. That makes
>> me even more dubious.
>
> Ah, that's what I thought. The big Milwaukee WoN was special magic
> having something to do with all the planets aligning or something. For
> that magic to repeat itself we'd have to again have everything fall
> perfectly into place.
>
> Not sure why your more dubious.

Because it sounds like WoN numbers _at_ GenCon last year are reduced from
the last Milwaukee GenCon and I don't see them going up because you move
the NAC away from GenCon.

> It's almost as though you've got GenCon
> on a pedestal and are thinking that "if even the mighty GenCon can't
> generate a 50+ attendee WoN then what chance would we have at a
> rotating NAC not attached to a con?" I imagine a fantastic V:TES only
> event (superior to GenCon) that just knocks people's socks off and then
> a successful WoN looks reasonable.

That's probably a difference in our thinking. I can see arguments to
rotate the NAC around for reasons like fairness and avoiding lines,
expensive hotels, and obviating the need for way-ahead-of-time planning.
Ultimately, I have a hard time imaging these advantages outweigh the
attraction such that it would generate overall greater numbers. Maybe
you're right. It's just not something that looks as good to me so I
have a hard time imagining that lots of other people feel differently.
I'm sure you're looking at the same way in reverse. *shrug* It's
all ego.

> Hell, I'll betcha I could even setup a successful NAC/WoN at the
> Milwaukee Comfort Suites and make it better for the players than GenCon
> Indy. :) 

Yea, but you can't replicate the qualities of GenCon itself. If you're
someone who likes those qualities _as well as_ the chance to play a lot
of VtES and doesn't care that much about the improvements you're offering,
it's not as much of an attraction.

Fred
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 2:54:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"The NosferatuStuff" <roansteele@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1121961948.374891.169420@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I "think"(just as unarguable as "if" and "maybe") that the stefan is
> right and fred is being totally close minded to the thought of moving
> the NAC. What i want is to know why?

I'm not being close minded about it. I've just pointed out that the
things you seem to think are important aren't what eveyone thinks is
important. It's isn't just an issue of getting cheap hotels. If you
want to know more, I've made my opinions clear about what the NAC
loses if not at GenCon very clear in a lot of other posts. I object
to being asked to repeat that over and over.

> Things like variety of locations. I KNOW that getting to indy is not
> possible for everyone,

That is just silly. To repeat something I posted in another thread,
it's a Continental Championship. It is unreasonable to expect NOT to
have to get on an airplane and make hotel reservations in order to
attend it. It may be easier to attend a nearby one and thus the NAC
gains a quality of fairness it doesn't currently have. But since
the number of people who are close enough to attend a tournament
locally is ultimately a fairly small percentage of the overall
participants, the amount of fairness you gain strikes me as pretty
much negligiable. And fairness in general in this respect doesn't
seem very important to me, anyway.

> since there is no way to know what would have or
> could possibly happen I suggest we stick to what is logically and
> logistically provable.

I think that's kind of a convenient suggestion that is not the way the
issue should be resolved. Things that are not "logically and logistically
provable" still matter to people and shouldn't be discounted. What can't
be "proved" should be estimated.

> There are actually 3 possible scenarios that need to be explored:
> 1) NAC stays at gencon cause gencon is great
> 2) NAC rotates around to different cities
> 3) NAC moves from gencon, but does not rotate around because a
> different site is selected to better meet the needs of the game
>
> It seems to me that option 2 and 3 are being dismissed because 'its
> always been at gencon' even though white wolf has proven their
> flexibility to try new things.

No one's discounting anything. I've never said rotation shouldn't be
considered. I've just consistently spoken up when I think the reasons
for option 1 are being completely discounted because the speaker at
the time doesn't personally happen to care about them.

If the whole issue is weighed with all points of view taken into account
and any reasonable option is considered, I'm fine with that. If option 2
is chosen, I won't like the NAC as much but I'll still like it. I'll
still try to show up whenever I feel I can.

Fred
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 3:06:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Frederick Scott wrote:
> "Robert Goudie" <robertg@vtesinla.org> wrote in message
> > Frederick Scott wrote:
> >> "Robert Goudie" <robertg@vtesinla.org> wrote in message
> >> The reason hardcore players would shy away from a WoN is if not enough
> >> other people showed up to make it enough fun. I'm sorry, I just disagree
> >> that one has to intend to spend the whole time at GenCon playing VtES in
> >> order to decide to attend WoN.
> >
> > I'm not saying that one *has to* have that intention. It isn't a
> > requirement. I'm saying that the people who show up for the WoN *are*
> > intending to spend the whole time playing VtES. Am I wrong?
>
> I think _some_ people do that, yes. But not all. And the ones who don't
> are the ones you'll lose automatically - making it less attractive for
> ones who do, in turn.

I'm thinking all or nearly all.

> >> I wasn't aware the Indy WoN was disappointing by comparison. That makes
> >> me even more dubious.
> >
> > Ah, that's what I thought. The big Milwaukee WoN was special magic
> > having something to do with all the planets aligning or something. For
> > that magic to repeat itself we'd have to again have everything fall
> > perfectly into place.
> >
> > Not sure why your more dubious.
>
> Because it sounds like WoN numbers _at_ GenCon last year are reduced from
> the last Milwaukee GenCon and I don't see them going up because you move
> the NAC away from GenCon.
>
> > It's almost as though you've got GenCon
> > on a pedestal and are thinking that "if even the mighty GenCon can't
> > generate a 50+ attendee WoN then what chance would we have at a
> > rotating NAC not attached to a con?" I imagine a fantastic V:TES only
> > event (superior to GenCon) that just knocks people's socks off and then
> > a successful WoN looks reasonable.
>
> That's probably a difference in our thinking. I can see arguments to
> rotate the NAC around for reasons like fairness and avoiding lines,
> expensive hotels, and obviating the need for way-ahead-of-time planning.
> Ultimately, I have a hard time imaging these advantages outweigh the
> attraction such that it would generate overall greater numbers. Maybe
> you're right. It's just not something that looks as good to me so I
> have a hard time imagining that lots of other people feel differently.
> I'm sure you're looking at the same way in reverse. *shrug* It's
> all ego.

I think that pretty well sums it up. If you like GenCon then you will
lose some of whatever it is that GenCon offers you if the NAC moved.
If you dislike it or if it serves as nothing more than background noise
to your V:TES play then you'll have no problem moving the NAC.

> > Hell, I'll betcha I could even setup a successful NAC/WoN at the
> > Milwaukee Comfort Suites and make it better for the players than GenCon
> > Indy. :) 
>
> Yea, but you can't replicate the qualities of GenCon itself. If you're
> someone who likes those qualities _as well as_ the chance to play a lot
> of VtES and doesn't care that much about the improvements you're offering,
> it's not as much of an attraction.

Agreed. If we ever get to run a NAC out this way, we'd make sure that
the V:TES attraction was better than you could imagine! But those
things you consider qualities about GenCon are probably not going to be
present at our NAC. Fair enough. Taking that further, some people
will attend either way. Some will stop attending the NAC because of the
missing GenCon attributes. Some will start attending because of the
missing GenCon attributes.

-Robert
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 3:14:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Frederick Scott wrote:
> "The NosferatuStuff" <roansteele@yahoo.com> wrote in message

> It may be easier to attend a nearby one and thus the NAC
> gains a quality of fairness it doesn't currently have.

Agreed. I also agree with what you've pointed out in other
places...that it is a rob Peter to pay Paul thing.

Even if an NAC is run in L.A., I'd still be travelling most years.
We'd still have that core group that will travel wherever the NAC is
at. Then there is the rest who will only attend when it is local. I
suspect most regions have a similar setup.

> But since
> the number of people who are close enough to attend a tournament
> locally is ultimately a fairly small percentage of the overall
> participants, the amount of fairness you gain strikes me as pretty
> much negligiable.

Yikes. I'd figure a quarter of the attendees would be local (within a
few hours drive) and another chunk would be regional (< $100 flights or
a lengthy drive).

-Robert
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 4:11:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Frederick Scott wrote:

> Except maybe one thing: if splitting the NAC away from GenCon were to make
> the Week of Nightmares to be no longer viable - an eventuality that seems
> quite possible to me - then it becomes less newsworthy because it no longer
> exists.
>
> Fred
>
>


your pretty one sided in your views and opinions. totally ruling out
that a rotating event away from gencon would have any chance for success.

stefan
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 4:11:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Stefan Ferenci wrote:
> Frederick Scott wrote:
>
>> Except maybe one thing: if splitting the NAC away from GenCon were to
>> make
>> the Week of Nightmares to be no longer viable - an eventuality that seems
>> quite possible to me - then it becomes less newsworthy because it no
>> longer
>> exists.
>>
>> Fred
>>
>
>
> your pretty one sided in your views and opinions. totally ruling out
> that a rotating event away from gencon would have any chance for success.

You seem to have missed the "if" and "maybe" parts of the section you
quoted.

--
LSJ (vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 4:11:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Stefan Ferenci" <nospam@thankyou.com> wrote in message
news:42df74a6$0$12126$3b214f66@usenet.univie.ac.at...
> Frederick Scott wrote:
>
>> Except maybe one thing: if splitting the NAC away from GenCon were to make
>> the Week of Nightmares to be no longer viable - an eventuality that seems
>> quite possible to me - then it becomes less newsworthy because it no longer
>> exists.
>
> your pretty one sided in your views and opinions. totally ruling out
> that a rotating event away from gencon would have any chance for success.

Please note the difference between the NAC itself and the Week of Nightmares.
I have no doubt a rotating NAC would prove viable at some level, even if I
don't like it as much. To clarify what I was expressing doubt about above
is whether the rotating NAC would be enough of an attraction to support an
entire Week of Nightmares along with it (unless it were attached to some other
large convention as David Zopf proposed). I'm not sure either the independent
NAC or GenCon could do that. With no WoN, there could be no article about any
week-long event. It would have to be about a three-day or four-day event.

Fred
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 4:27:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Robert Goudie wrote:
>
> Hell, I'll betcha I could even setup a successful NAC/WoN at the
> Milwaukee Comfort Suites and make it better for the players than GenCon
> Indy. :) 
>
> -Robert

Yeah, yeah, do that. I've always lived in the Greater Milwaukee Area,
but the year after the famous WoN, I moved to within 10 minutes (just
down the road) of that Comfort Suites. Within a week, I'll be moving a
little further away from it, but I'd still be within a half hour of
that Comfort Suites.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

Later,
~Rehlow
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 4:44:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

The NosferatuStuff wrote:
> Perhaps if Mr Scott would speak in any terms other than "if" and
> "maybe" then people would have something else to respond to. It is a
> irrefutable claim that holding an event somewhere other then gencon is
> cheaper. I can go look up hotel costs, gencon entrant fees, and flight
> information to indy. I can compare it to costs for a facility in
> atlanta and see which is cheaper. Hiding behind opinions and "if" and
> "maybe" will get us no where. MAYBE we will get 10x the exposure
> holding the NAC at my house. IF we get an advertisement on the moon
> more people would notice VTES then hanging out upstairs in small
> meeting rooms at the indy convention center.
>

It is cheaper if you now don't go to GenCon. GenCon + Another separate
NAC event will always cost more than just GenCon. Other people have
mentioned that their real "cost" is the vacation time they need. You
will make these people choose between GenCon and the NAC, and some will
choose GenCon, hurting your NAC attendance.

> I "think"(just as unarguable as "if" and "maybe") that the stefan is
> right and fred is being totally close minded to the thought of moving
> the NAC. What i want is to know why? because maybe we will lose some
> ad space? because maybe people will have to travel somewhere new?
> maybe his brother lives in indy and its easy for him to get there? all
> these maybe's and if's are starting to totally lose their credibility.
> How about we stick to what we KNOW.
>
> I KNOW that gencon is more expensive then VTES at a hotel. I know this
> because i have played games at several hotels and never incured costs
> like i have at gencon.
>
> I KNOW that vtes players will show up with or without the possibility
> of advertising the game. they show up for WoN 4-5 days before anyone
> would possibly learn about the game. So the actually players aren't
> that concerned with being living ads.
>
> I KNOW that vtes takes up all of my time at gencon. I can just look at
> the scheduel of the events, compare it to the overall of gencon, and
> realize that I'm never going to be able to jump in on a 4 hour settler
> tournament or a 6 hour LARP.
>

It takes up all of your GenCon time because you have chosen to spend
all your GenCon time playing VTES. There are VTES players at GenCon who
find time for Settler's and/or a LARP and still get in VTES. If you
want to play VTES at GenCon, you don't have to give up everything else.

> I also KNOW that the europeans have been rotating their championship
> and people still manage to show up. Is that better then having it at
> gencon? i dont know that, but that is what we should be exploring now.
> figure out what we can actually prove and stop speculating that
> "maybe" everyone will leave and no new players will join and the world
> will end tomorrow.
>

Europe is also able to get 100+ players to attend a storyline
tournament.

A NAC outside of GenCon could result in the same turnout as a NAQ.

I'm not saying I don't want the option of the NAC outside of GenCon to
be explored. There are a lot of facets to be looked at though.

Later,
~Rehlow
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 5:01:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Robert Goudie" <robertg@vtesinla.org> wrote in message
news:1121969651.524889.307100@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Frederick Scott wrote:
>> "The NosferatuStuff" <roansteele@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
>> It may be easier to attend a nearby one and thus the NAC
>> gains a quality of fairness it doesn't currently have.
>
> Agreed. I also agree with what you've pointed out in other
> places...that it is a rob Peter to pay Paul thing.
>
> Even if an NAC is run in L.A., I'd still be travelling most years.
> We'd still have that core group that will travel wherever the NAC is
> at. Then there is the rest who will only attend when it is local. I
> suspect most regions have a similar setup.
>
>> But since
>> the number of people who are close enough to attend a tournament
>> locally is ultimately a fairly small percentage of the overall
>> participants, the amount of fairness you gain strikes me as pretty
>> much negligiable.
>
> Yikes. I'd figure a quarter of the attendees would be local (within a
> few hours drive) and another chunk would be regional (< $100 flights or
> a lengthy drive).

I think a quarter strikes me as being high, given that this is supposed
to be a continental championship. Do a quarter of the current attendees
to WoN/NAC now come from Indianapolis/close-in-enough-not-to-stay-at-a-
hotel? I don't think so. Do a quarter of the current attendees at the
European CC live that close to where it's held? And what would it say
about the drawing power of a "Continental Championship" if a quarter of
the participants (even if they just come for the LCQ and other events)
are local? To me, it says it's not very well-respected.

And I guess I wasn't counting the regional crew so much since they have
to stay in hotels anyway. That was wrong of me in a way: the regional
people don't have to pay for a plane flight so there is a substantial
fairness issue there - just not as big a one as the locals since they
still have to pay for hotels or make some kind of lodging arrangements.

One other reason I'm not that impressed with the "fairness" of moving
the locality is that you can't hit every locality. You're really
only going to hit a very small percentage of them, even of the course
of 10 or 20 years. Twenty years would be at most 20 cities which,
when looked from the perspective of how close one has to live to not
have to book a hotel, I think you'd still miss over half the population
of this continent or well more than that. Over 20 years.

So the fairness thing to me is mainly just the driving distance/air fare
thing, which to me is something but not all that big of a thing.

Fred
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 5:24:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Frederick Scott wrote:
> "Robert Goudie" <robertg@vtesinla.org> wrote in message
> news:1121969651.524889.307100@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> > Frederick Scott wrote:
> >> But since
> >> the number of people who are close enough to attend a tournament
> >> locally is ultimately a fairly small percentage of the overall
> >> participants, the amount of fairness you gain strikes me as pretty
> >> much negligiable.
> >
> > Yikes. I'd figure a quarter of the attendees would be local (within a
> > few hours drive) and another chunk would be regional (< $100 flights or
> > a lengthy drive).
>
> I think a quarter strikes me as being high, given that this is supposed
> to be a continental championship. Do a quarter of the current attendees
> to WoN/NAC now come from Indianapolis/close-in-enough-not-to-stay-at-a-
> hotel? I don't think so.

That's because the NAC is fixed at GenCon and GenCon didn't ask us
where the V:TES players are. We're talking about host cities and
probably host cities where thriving playgroups exist. If I show up at
a NAC in Boston I certainly expect at least a quarter of the attendees
to be local or regional. In LA, even with a 100+ players at a NAC we'd
get a quarter locals. Sure.

> Do a quarter of the current attendees at the
> European CC live that close to where it's held?

I suspect so, yes. Are the massive number of French players going to
stay home just so the percentages of non-French will look favorable?

> And what would it say
> about the drawing power of a "Continental Championship" if a quarter of
> the participants (even if they just come for the LCQ and other events)
> are local? To me, it says it's not very well-respected.

That's crazy. Okay, if the NAC is 20 players and you have 5 locals
that's bad, but I don't see how a 80 player NAC with 20 locals could be
considered "not very well-respected".

> So the fairness thing to me is mainly just the driving distance/air fare
> thing, which to me is something but not all that big of a thing.

We locals in LA have already talked about (again, just theory in case
it ever rotates) offering lots of options in addition to hotels. You
Fred seem to like to stay in hotels even when floorspace is available
(I don't blame ya!). However, others who are able to ditch the airfare
cost and who on willing to crash on someone's floor have eliminated
airfare and hotel. Holding a NAC in a locale that is pre-determined by
GenCon, regardless of local V:TES player concentration, makes it
unlikely that players will be able to find free floor space.

-Robert
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 5:31:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Frederick Scott wrote:
>I'm sorry, I just disagree
> that one has to intend to spend the whole time at GenCon playing VtES in
> order to decide to attend WoN. I think it makes total sense to want to
> attend GenCon for _all_ the attractions at GenCon

It makes perfect sense for there to be people in attendance at WoN who
are not going to play non-stop VtES during Gen Con. People plan a year
in advance for Gen Con and often take a week of vacation to attend. Why
would it not make sense to show up a little early to satisfy your VtES
jones so that you can have time to do other things during the
convention? This is especially true when there's not a "Week of Star
Fleet Battles" or a "Week of Age of Renaissance."

TTFn
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 5:44:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

The Kaiser wrote:
> Frederick Scott wrote:
> >I'm sorry, I just disagree
> > that one has to intend to spend the whole time at GenCon playing VtES in
> > order to decide to attend WoN. I think it makes total sense to want to
> > attend GenCon for _all_ the attractions at GenCon
>
> It makes perfect sense for there to be people in attendance at WoN who
> are not going to play non-stop VtES during Gen Con. People plan a year
> in advance for Gen Con and often take a week of vacation to attend. Why
> would it not make sense to show up a little early to satisfy your VtES
> jones so that you can have time to do other things during the
> convention? This is especially true when there's not a "Week of Star
> Fleet Battles" or a "Week of Age of Renaissance."

It may make sense that WoN attendees might have that in mind, but I
don't believe that's what is happening. And if it isn't happening I
wouldn't want to weigh that very heavily in a "should we or shouldn't
we move" discussion. But as I've said, I may be incorrect and anybody
who attended last year's WoN and didn't go to GenCon solely for V:TES
can just correct me. I believe that what is actually happening is that
a four days of V:TES was insufficient and so they show up early for
more V:TES.

-Robert
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 6:01:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Robert Goudie" <robertg@vtesinla.org> wrote in message
news:1121977460.559416.200720@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Frederick Scott wrote:
>> "Robert Goudie" <robertg@vtesinla.org> wrote in message
>> news:1121969651.524889.307100@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>> > I'd figure a quarter of the attendees would be local
....
>> I think a quarter strikes me as being high, given that this is supposed
>> to be a continental championship. Do a quarter of the current attendees
>> to WoN/NAC now come from Indianapolis/close-in-enough-not-to-stay-at-a-
>> hotel? I don't think so.
>
> That's because the NAC is fixed at GenCon and GenCon didn't ask us
> where the V:TES players are. We're talking about host cities and
> probably host cities where thriving playgroups exist. If I show up at
> a NAC in Boston I certainly expect at least a quarter of the attendees
> to be local or regional. In LA, even with a 100+ players at a NAC we'd
> get a quarter locals. Sure.

You mean 25+ players who didn't have to say in a motel or Mike's garage
or something? Remember, anyone who doesn't drive home between sessions
doesn't count for these purposes. (I'm presuming Indiana equivalents to
"Mike's Garage" exist for the current NAC. See below.) I'd really be
shocked.

>> Do a quarter of the current attendees at the
>> European CC live that close to where it's held?
>
> I suspect so, yes. Are the massive number of French players going to
> stay home just so the percentages of non-French will look favorable?

Not sure what you're saying here (I thought the EC was in Budapest this
year). But regardless, maybe someone knowledgable about the attendance
at the EC can break in with a guesstimate here about what percentage of
attendees actually lived close enough to drive home between sessions
and thus not need lodging arrangements.

>> So the fairness thing to me is mainly just the driving distance/air fare
>> thing, which to me is something but not all that big of a thing.
>
> We locals in LA have already talked about (again, just theory in case
> it ever rotates) offering lots of options in addition to hotels.

Sure. But why is it any different in Indiana? It may be that some
localities are better at it than others (and maybe LA is particularly
good at it), but unless you can give a reason why this is more likely
to happen under a rotating system than the current fixed, GenCon
location, that argument sounds like a wash to me.

> Holding a NAC in a locale that is pre-determined by
> GenCon, regardless of local V:TES player concentration, makes it
> unlikely that players will be able to find free floor space.

Why?

Fred
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 7:07:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Frederick Scott wrote:
> "Robert Goudie" <robertg@vtesinla.org> wrote in message
> > That's because the NAC is fixed at GenCon and GenCon didn't ask us
> > where the V:TES players are. We're talking about host cities and
> > probably host cities where thriving playgroups exist. If I show up at
> > a NAC in Boston I certainly expect at least a quarter of the attendees
> > to be local or regional. In LA, even with a 100+ players at a NAC we'd
> > get a quarter locals. Sure.
>
> You mean 25+ players who didn't have to say in a motel or Mike's garage
> or something? Remember, anyone who doesn't drive home between sessions
> doesn't count for these purposes. (I'm presuming Indiana equivalents to
> "Mike's Garage" exist for the current NAC. See below.) I'd really be
> shocked.

Hang on. We're (or at least me) combining two topics now. I brought up
a 25% local attendance in response to your assertion that the increase
of fairness associated with a rotating NAC was "negligible".

I didn't realize that we drifted into close-enough to provide sleeping
accomodations and drive home every night (it is clearly in your post
but I was still stuck on the "negligible" mindset). I'm just saying
that there'd be lots of locals and regionals who'd attend.

As for the sleeping accomondations... there would be *enough*
drive-home-every-night folks to provide a lot of free floor space. That
would be *by design* since you could choose a NAC locale that was close
to the free floor space. At Indy it's the other way around...a location
is thrust upon us, and then we look for local playgroups, and then we
check for proximity and volunteers, etc. Seems obvious to me that a
host city would be better able to provide freebies (rides instead of
rental cars, floor space instead of hotels) than a corporation whose
goal is the opposite of freebies.

> >> Do a quarter of the current attendees at the
> >> European CC live that close to where it's held?
> >
> > I suspect so, yes. Are the massive number of French players going to
> > stay home just so the percentages of non-French will look favorable?
>
> Not sure what you're saying here (I thought the EC was in Budapest this
> year). But regardless, maybe someone knowledgable about the attendance
> at the EC can break in with a guesstimate here about what percentage of
> attendees actually lived close enough to drive home between sessions
> and thus not need lodging arrangements.

My bad. Not speaking about "not need lodging arrangements". Was just
speaking to the general attendance of those who can easily get there by
a short (a couple of hours?) car/bus/train ride. Was also speaking
about an EC in Paris...

> >> So the fairness thing to me is mainly just the driving distance/air fare
> >> thing, which to me is something but not all that big of a thing.
> >
> > We locals in LA have already talked about (again, just theory in case
> > it ever rotates) offering lots of options in addition to hotels.
>
> Sure. But why is it any different in Indiana? It may be that some
> localities are better at it than others (and maybe LA is particularly
> good at it), but unless you can give a reason why this is more likely
> to happen under a rotating system than the current fixed, GenCon
> location, that argument sounds like a wash to me.

?

Because a rotating NAC would have a host city with host players. Some
host players are likely to live near the venue (that would be
considered when choosing the venue!).

> > Holding a NAC in a locale that is pre-determined by
> > GenCon, regardless of local V:TES player concentration, makes it
> > unlikely that players will be able to find free floor space.
>
> Why?

Because Indy wasn't chosen for a V:TES NAC because of it's active V:TES
playing community.

-Robert
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 7:17:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Frederick Scott wrote:
> "Robert Goudie" <robertg@vtesinla.org> wrote in message
> >Frederick Scott wrote:
> >> But since
> >> the number of people who are close enough to attend a tournament
> >> locally is ultimately a fairly small percentage of the overall
> >> participants, the amount of fairness you gain strikes me as pretty
> >> much negligiable.
> >
> > Yikes. I'd figure a quarter of the attendees would be local (within a
> > few hours drive) and another chunk would be regional (< $100 flights or
> > a lengthy drive).
>
> I think a quarter strikes me as being high, given that this is supposed
> to be a continental championship. Do a quarter of the current attendees
> to WoN/NAC now come from Indianapolis/close-in-enough-not-to-stay-at-a-
> hotel? I don't think so.

See what happened here Fred? You said that the local percentage vs.
overall participants was "fairly small". I responded by defining local
as "within a few hours drive" and pegged that at 25%. You responded
that my 25% figure was high but you defined local as
"close-in-enough-not-to-stay-at-a-hotel". No wonder we disagreed! :) 

I think LA would easily be 25% of all attendance at a L.A. NAC if we
use my definition of "local". Using your definition we don't have any
locals in attendance for anything. :)  People crash at Mike's house or
our local V:TES cons even when their house is 20 minutes away. :) 

-Robert
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 7:44:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Robert Goudie" <robertg@vtesinla.org> wrote in message
news:1121983624.889293.50710@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> You mean 25+ players who didn't have to say in a motel or Mike's garage
>> or something? Remember, anyone who doesn't drive home between sessions
>> doesn't count for these purposes. (I'm presuming Indiana equivalents to
>> "Mike's Garage" exist for the current NAC. See below.) I'd really be
>> shocked.
>
> Hang on. We're (or at least me) combining two topics now. I brought up
> a 25% local attendance in response to your assertion that the increase
> of fairness associated with a rotating NAC was "negligible".

Oh, sorry. Apparently, you missed how I was constructing my conclusions
about the fairness issue. I was splitting the "nearby" folks into two
classes:

1) Close enough to commute - therefore, doesn't have to stay in a hotel
or find local accomadataions.

2) Close enough to drive not fly.

I was conceding (2) is a fairness issue and, yes, 25% is more than a fair
share to assign to it. Might well be higher than that, as you say. How
much of a fairness issue it is I find questionable. Even in terms of
"close-enough-to-drive" stardards, I doubt you'll cover much of North
American even over a number of years. (Depending, of course, on each
person's standards for "driving distance". For me, Milwaukee was driving
distance from Arizona. :-) ) But yea - in the end you clearly have a
point.

(1) strikes me as being too small a radius to claim it as much of a
fairness issue. However, I note the point you make below about local
groups providing free lodging. It isn't actually a fairness issue,
either. But it is still a good point overall.

>> > We locals in LA have already talked about (again, just theory in case
>> > it ever rotates) offering lots of options in addition to hotels.
>>
>> Sure. But why is it any different in Indiana? It may be that some
>> localities are better at it than others (and maybe LA is particularly
>> good at it), but unless you can give a reason why this is more likely
>> to happen under a rotating system than the current fixed, GenCon
>> location, that argument sounds like a wash to me.
>
> ?
>
> Because a rotating NAC would have a host city with host players. Some
> host players are likely to live near the venue (that would be
> considered when choosing the venue!).

OK, I missed this. Yea, I suppose that is a strike for rotating the
NAC. Although I wonder if VEKN has tried very hard to do this at GenCon?
One point you made about having a local group organize the tournament
does suggest that is how this could be covered in a rotating NAC. But
could it not also be covered at GenCon, even if the local groups around
there aren't actually organizing the tournament? You'd think someone
could brainstorm about this - maybe offer free passes to GenCon or
other perks for taking in a traveling player? I don't know - just a
thought.

Fred
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 10:03:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

LSJ wrote:
> Robert Goudie wrote:
> > Everyone who attends is already planning on spending
> > the whole time playing V:TES and has decided that it isn't enough--so
> > let's add a few days onto the beginning of it.
>
> Actually, some of the players attending WoN plan to spend some time at Gen*Con
> playing things other than VTES (or participating in non-game activities
> at Gen*Con).

I assume this means you since you are posting. I'm curious how many
days your WoN attendance amounted to or whether it was the whole WoN or
just the stuff that happens after GenCon begins (not judging of course.
especially since I only arrived 1 day early for WoN last year).

-Robert
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 4:40:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Robert Goudie wrote:
> Everyone who attends is already planning on spending
> the whole time playing V:TES and has decided that it isn't enough--so
> let's add a few days onto the beginning of it.

Actually, some of the players attending WoN plan to spend some time at Gen*Con
playing things other than VTES (or participating in non-game activities
at Gen*Con).

--
LSJ (vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 2:31:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Robert Goudie wrote:
>
> LSJ wrote:
>
>>Robert Goudie wrote:
>>
>>>Everyone who attends is already planning on spending
>>>the whole time playing V:TES and has decided that it isn't enough--so
>>>let's add a few days onto the beginning of it.
>>
>>Actually, some of the players attending WoN plan to spend some time at Gen*Con
>>playing things other than VTES (or participating in non-game activities
>>at Gen*Con).
>
> I assume this means you since you are posting.

No. It happens to include me, but I meant the general statement as stated
above. I'm hardly an interesting case, given my position, personally.

I'm curious how many
> days your WoN attendance amounted to or whether it was the whole WoN or
> just the stuff that happens after GenCon begins (not judging of course.
> especially since I only arrived 1 day early for WoN last year).

I didn't attend WoN last year due to scheduling conflicts. I attended
WoN in full (minus the first day?) the previous year.

--
LSJ (vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 3:30:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"LSJ" <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:TV3Ee.2750$6f.533@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> I didn't attend WoN last year due to scheduling conflicts. I attended
> WoN in full (minus the first day?) the previous year.

If I recall correctly, they didn't have one in 2003. (Or everyone was
trying to prevent me from showing up by not telling me about it. ;-) )
You mean 2002 - in Milwaukee, right?

Fred
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 7:39:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

James Coupe wrote:
> In message <42e16965$0$12384$3b214f66@usenet.univie.ac.at>, Stefan
> Ferenci <nospam@thankyou.com> writes:
> >oh i really enjoyed our non vtes pick up games. but i dont see a reason
> >why these shouldnt happen at a NAC away from gencon.
>
> It's somewhat harder, since the number of people around is lower, though
> it depends a lot on what you want to play. Fancy a game of <random
> game>? Well, first of all, can you find any players at the NAC who want
> to play and have cards/figures/tokens for it with them?
>
> In a convention of a few thousand people, that's much more achievable
> than in a V:TES gaming environment of a couple of hundred. (Assuming a
> large (80+) NAC and a similarly large last chance qualifier, and a few
> local stragglers.)

Certainly true. More people means more options.

However, I recall playing tons of non-VTES games with V:TES players at
the big Milwaukee WoN. Boardgames, poker, Munchkin, Zombies, etc...
with about 50 people present at the time. I don't think there'd be any
problem getting together a non-V:TES game at a rotating NAC away from a
convention. More difficult than at GenCon? Sure. Difficult? Naw.

-Robert
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 1:06:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Frederick Scott wrote:
> "LSJ" <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com> wrote in message
> news:TV3Ee.2750$6f.533@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
>>I didn't attend WoN last year due to scheduling conflicts. I attended
>>WoN in full (minus the first day?) the previous year.
>
>
> If I recall correctly, they didn't have one in 2003. (Or everyone was
> trying to prevent me from showing up by not telling me about it. ;-) )
> You mean 2002 - in Milwaukee, right?

Yeah, maybe. The years kind of all look alike to use elders, you know. :-)

--
LSJ (vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 2:24:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Frederick Scott wrote:
> "Robert Goudie" <robertg@vtesinla.org> wrote in message news:1121963756.895156.283870@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>>Frederick Scott wrote:
>>
>>>"Robert Goudie" <robertg@vtesinla.org> wrote in message
>>>The reason hardcore players would shy away from a WoN is if not enough
>>>other people showed up to make it enough fun. I'm sorry, I just disagree
>>>that one has to intend to spend the whole time at GenCon playing VtES in
>>>order to decide to attend WoN.
>>
>>I'm not saying that one *has to* have that intention. It isn't a
>>requirement. I'm saying that the people who show up for the WoN *are*
>>intending to spend the whole time playing VtES. Am I wrong?
>
>
> I think _some_ people do that, yes. But not all. And the ones who don't
> are the ones you'll lose automatically - making it less attractive for
> ones who do, in turn.
>
>
> Fred
>
>

Fred just give me your estimates: (percentage wise)

How many players, who show up for WoN, just show up because its attached
to gencon.
How many players, who show up for WoN, are at Gen Con primarly for vtes.

i agree that the nac might loose some players if it moved away from
gencon, but i am also pretty sure that it would gain a larger amount of
players, that for some reason wouldnt have shown up at gencon (higher
costs beeing one of the reasons).

stefan
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 2:33:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Frederick Scott wrote:

>
>
> That is just silly. To repeat something I posted in another thread,
> it's a Continental Championship. It is unreasonable to expect NOT to
> have to get on an airplane and make hotel reservations in order to
> attend it. It may be easier to attend a nearby one and thus the NAC
> gains a quality of fairness it doesn't currently have. But since
> the number of people who are close enough to attend a tournament
> locally is ultimately a fairly small percentage of the overall
> participants, the amount of fairness you gain strikes me as pretty
> much negligiable. And fairness in general in this respect doesn't
> seem very important to me, anyway.
>

tell that the spanish, at the last chance qualifier at ec 2003 50%
percent of the players where from spain and it is till now the largest
ever vtes tourney.
and yes a lot of the participants might need to use an airplane and book
hotels, but the cost will be significantly smaller if the NAC were a
standalone event in a random city. (and arguing that is kinda a silly
because hotel rooms at gencon are around 130$ a night and i am pretty
sure one could half the housing cost at a different location)

stefan
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 2:33:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Stefan Ferenci" <nospam@thankyou.com> wrote in message
news:42e157da$0$12384$3b214f66@usenet.univie.ac.at...
> and yes a lot of the participants might need to use an airplane and book
> hotels, but the cost will be significantly smaller if the NAC were a
> standalone event in a random city. (and arguing that is kinda a silly
> because hotel rooms at gencon are around 130$ a night and i am pretty
> sure one could half the housing cost at a different location

I am pretty sure you can book a hotel room around GenCon for less than
$130. Of course, you'll have to book it a ways in advance and accept
some distance from the tournament but I'll bet you can do it.

Fred
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 2:39:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

> I think a quarter strikes me as being high, given that this is supposed
> to be a continental championship. Do a quarter of the current attendees
> to WoN/NAC now come from Indianapolis/close-in-enough-not-to-stay-at-a-
> hotel? I don't think so.

no because noone in indy cares about vtes


> Do a quarter of the current attendees at the
> European CC live that close to where it's held?

yes i do think so


> Fred
>
>
!