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Saving Throws

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Anonymous
September 14, 2005 8:09:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Does a sleeping(naturally sleeping) character get a save against the effects
of a spell such as Hold Person, assuming they aren't woken by the casting?

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

More about : saving throws

Anonymous
September 14, 2005 8:09:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jeff Goslin wrote:
> Does a sleeping(naturally sleeping) character get a save against the effects
> of a spell such as Hold Person, assuming they aren't woken by the casting?

Sleeping is subsumed under "Helpless", but suffers no Fort or Will
penalties, only Reflex is at -5 because Dex is treated as 0.

"To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong
voice."
So the sleeping victim will probably wake up anyway.

LL
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 8:09:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Joseph wrote:
> "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in
> news:-YGdnXEd2f-YRrreRVn-tA@comcast.com:
>
> > Does a sleeping(naturally sleeping) character get a save against the
> > effects of a spell such as Hold Person, assuming they aren't woken by
> > the casting?
>
> No.

Yes, actually.

> PHB: page 175 Aiming A Spell:
> Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a
> willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're

"Hold Person" does not require the target to be willing, the victim is
granted a Will save each round.

> flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically
> considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or

Sleeping targets are not unconscious. Both are considered helpless
though.

> helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned,
> or stunned) is not automatically willing.

Being asleep is not the same as voluntarily giving up a saving throw.

LL
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Anonymous
September 14, 2005 8:12:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jeff Goslin wrote:
> <Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de> wrote in message
> news:1126690137.229677.116490@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> > Sleeping targets are not unconscious. Both are considered helpless
> > though.
>
> Err. I don't know how YOU sleep, but when *I* sleep, I tend to consider
> myself unconscious.

But you aren't a character in a game, I hope.
To game characters the rules apply and...

"Unconscious: Knocked out and helpless.
Unconsciousness can result from having current hit points
between -1 and -9, or from nonlethal damage in excess of
current hit points."

I think this is a less conscious state than sleeping.
You *can't awake* from an unconscious state,
if you have to go to the bathroom, if your children
make strange noises in their sleep, if you hear other
unfamiliar noises etc.
All this is possible when you are asleep, I hope.

> I wouldn't mind if you could find a rule cite for that particular
> interpretation, so I don't get bit in the ass when I try to hold them and
> they are asleep.

Sleeping is found under the Helpless condition next to Unconscious.
The sleep spell description states
"Slapping or wounding awakens an affected creature,
but normal noise does not. "
This too indicates that sleeping is not the same as unconscious.
An unconscious character can obviously be slapped or wounded
without awakening him.

> > Being asleep is not the same as voluntarily giving up a saving throw.
>
> A willing target automatically fails his will save, doesn't he? Unconscious
> people are considered automatically willing, according to the rule
> previously cited. Sleeping people tend to sleep in an unconscious state, at
> least around these parts.

If you still insist that sleeping = unconscious, you're right.

> Assuming one doesn't rouse the sleeper in some way(such as by casting too
> close, and waking by the verbal components of the spell, eg), the sleeper is
> going to be unconscious when the spell is cast, resulting in an automatic
> failure on the part of the victim... right?
>
> Unless sleeping people aren't considered unconscious by the rules. That's
> something I would appreciate positive confirmation on. Thanks!

Another cite:
"A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious."
"Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep
filled with nightmares, helpless."

Wis 0 imposes -5 on Will saves, but I don't think this should apply.
Normal sleep is not "withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with
nightmares", I hope. :) 

If sleeping characters don't get Will saves, a clever opponent would
"Hold" all sleeping party members and then kill the guard(s), if any.

LL
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 8:28:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Joseph wrote:
> Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de wrote in
> news:1126690137.229677.116490@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
>
> >
> > Joseph wrote:
> >> "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in
> >> news:-YGdnXEd2f-YRrreRVn-tA@comcast.com:
> >>
> >> > Does a sleeping(naturally sleeping) character get a save against
> >> > the effects of a spell such as Hold Person, assuming they aren't
> >> > woken by the casting?
> >>
> >> No.
> >
> > Yes, actually.
>
> I prefer the PHB text over that vague DMG helpless entry.

I don't consider it vague.

<snip>
> The PHB gives a clear implication that being asleep is considered being
> unconscious helpless (automatically willing) not conscious (not
> automatically willing) helpless.

Where does it say that? Could you post a cite?

> Being unconscious makes one automatically willing, and sleep is a form
> of unconsciousness.

I don't think so for game and real world, please see my reply to Jeff.

LL
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 9:47:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

<Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:1126687822.319532.238960@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Sleeping is subsumed under "Helpless", but suffers no Fort or Will
> penalties, only Reflex is at -5 because Dex is treated as 0.

So, a guy who is sleeping gets a save against will-based attacks, despite
the fact that he's unconscious? Interesting.

> "To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong
> voice."
> So the sleeping victim will probably wake up anyway.

I was thinking about a spellcaster decently far enough away from the sleeper
to cast it without rousing him, or in an environment where loud noises
aren't uncommon(ie a tavern, etc).

Basically, I'm trying to cook up a way to capture the PC's without killing
them, and without the players saying "but, but, but!" I was thinking hold
person while they are sleeping might do the trick. Cast the spell, then
move in and bind them and haul them off. Doesn't matter if they wake up if
they are paralyzed, you know?

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 9:56:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

<Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:1126690137.229677.116490@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Sleeping targets are not unconscious. Both are considered helpless
> though.

Err. I don't know how YOU sleep, but when *I* sleep, I tend to consider
myself unconscious.

I wouldn't mind if you could find a rule cite for that particular
interpretation, so I don't get bit in the ass when I try to hold them and
they are asleep.

> Being asleep is not the same as voluntarily giving up a saving throw.

A willing target automatically fails his will save, doesn't he? Unconscious
people are considered automatically willing, according to the rule
previously cited. Sleeping people tend to sleep in an unconscious state, at
least around these parts.

Assuming one doesn't rouse the sleeper in some way(such as by casting too
close, and waking by the verbal components of the spell, eg), the sleeper is
going to be unconscious when the spell is cast, resulting in an automatic
failure on the part of the victim... right?

Unless sleeping people aren't considered unconscious by the rules. That's
something I would appreciate positive confirmation on. Thanks!

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
September 14, 2005 1:07:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in
news:-YGdnXEd2f-YRrreRVn-tA@comcast.com:

> Does a sleeping(naturally sleeping) character get a save against the
> effects of a spell such as Hold Person, assuming they aren't woken by
> the casting?

No.

PHB: page 175 Aiming A Spell:
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a
willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're
flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically
considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or
helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned,
or stunned) is not automatically willing.

Hold Person has a range of 100+ feet and a Will save negates entry, so if
the character doesn't wake up he doesn't get a save.
--
"Replace 'invalid' with 'net' to reply"
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 1:07:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Joseph" <jovu@verizon.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns96D1342085BFF619void@199.45.49.11...
> "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in
> news:-YGdnXEd2f-YRrreRVn-tA@comcast.com:
>
> > Does a sleeping(naturally sleeping) character get a save against the
> > effects of a spell such as Hold Person, assuming they aren't woken by
> > the casting?
>
> No.
>
> PHB: page 175 Aiming A Spell:
> Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a
> willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're
> flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are
automatically
> considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or
> helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed,
pinned,
> or stunned) is not automatically willing.
>
> Hold Person has a range of 100+ feet and a Will save negates entry, so if
> the character doesn't wake up he doesn't get a save.

Cool beans. That will do the trick then.

Trying to capture the (powerful) PC's, dontchaknowit.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
September 14, 2005 2:00:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de wrote in
news:1126690137.229677.116490@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:

>
> Joseph wrote:
>> "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in
>> news:-YGdnXEd2f-YRrreRVn-tA@comcast.com:
>>
>> > Does a sleeping(naturally sleeping) character get a save against
>> > the effects of a spell such as Hold Person, assuming they aren't
>> > woken by the casting?
>>
>> No.
>
> Yes, actually.

I prefer the PHB text over that vague DMG helpless entry.

>> PHB: page 175 Aiming A Spell:
>> Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself
>> as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even
>> if you're
>
> "Hold Person" does not require the target to be willing, the victim is
> granted a Will save each round.

Irrelevent. One can choose to willing accept the spell. PHB page 177:
Voluntarily Giving Up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego
a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result.


>> flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are
>> automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious
>> but immobile or
>
> Sleeping targets are not unconscious. Both are considered helpless
> though.

The PHB gives a clear implication that being asleep is considered being
unconscious helpless (automatically willing) not conscious (not
automatically willing) helpless.

>> helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed,
>> pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
>
> Being asleep is not the same as voluntarily giving up a saving throw.

Being unconscious makes one automatically willing, and sleep is a form
of unconsciousness.



--
"Replace 'invalid' with 'net' to reply"
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 2:02:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Not if he sleeps like I do. >-<

I might as well be dead.
September 14, 2005 2:15:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in
news:XICdnb6Ot6PFb7reRVn-rg@comcast.com:

> "Joseph" <jovu@verizon.invalid> wrote in message
> news:Xns96D1342085BFF619void@199.45.49.11...
>> "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in
>> news:-YGdnXEd2f-YRrreRVn-tA@comcast.com:
>>
>> > Does a sleeping(naturally sleeping) character get a save against
>> > the effects of a spell such as Hold Person, assuming they aren't
>> > woken by the casting?
>>
>> No.
>>
>> PHB: page 175 Aiming A Spell:
>> Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself
>> as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even
>> if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures
>> are
> automatically
>> considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or
>> helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed,
> pinned,
>> or stunned) is not automatically willing.
>>
>> Hold Person has a range of 100+ feet and a Will save negates entry,
>> so if the character doesn't wake up he doesn't get a save.
>
> Cool beans. That will do the trick then.
>
> Trying to capture the (powerful) PC's, dontchaknowit.

Of course if they do wake up after the spell affects them, Hold Person
will allow them saves each round to break it.

--
"Replace 'invalid' with 'net' to reply"
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 4:37:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Michael Scott Brown wrote:
> <Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de> wrote in message
> news:1126696338.318358.275330@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Jeff Goslin wrote:
> > To game characters the rules apply and...
> > "Unconscious: Knocked out and helpless.
> > Unconsciousness can result from having current hit points
> > between -1 and -9, or from nonlethal damage in excess of
> > current hit points."
> > I think this is a less conscious state than sleeping.
> > You *can't awake* from an unconscious state,
>
> Your idiocy is making my eyes bleed.

I hope it's not too painful, you sissy.

> You can't wake up from a Sleep
> spell on your own, either.

And? Natural sleep != magical slumber.

> The ability to wake up is not how we

WE? I'm out, so that's you, Jeff and Joseph. Have fun.

> evaluate
> whether or not a person is unconscious, nor is *how* they were rendered
> unconscious relevant. The issue is a very simple one - is the character's
> mind awake and active, or is it "off", temporarily or otherwise?

Ever heard of the boolean fallacy?

> Sleeping
> people are unconscious.

In the game? If you cite the rule, that defines sleeping = unconscious,
I'll believe you.

> People who have been hurt so badly they are in a
> coma are unconscious. People who have been pummelled by nonlethal damage are
> unconscious.
> It's just that easy.

You're right, amazing. Although it's beside the point...

> > If sleeping characters don't get Will saves, a clever opponent would
> > "Hold" all sleeping party members and then kill the guard(s), if any.
>
> Which is why it is dangerous to be ambushed when you are asleep. Did
> you notice the bit where you can coup a sleeping person, too?

Yes.

LL
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 5:07:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jeff Goslin wrote:
>
> "Joseph" <jovu@verizon.invalid> wrote in message
> news:Xns96D1342085BFF619void@199.45.49.11...
> > "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in
> > news:-YGdnXEd2f-YRrreRVn-tA@comcast.com:
> >
> > > Does a sleeping(naturally sleeping) character get a save against the
> > > effects of a spell such as Hold Person, assuming they aren't woken by
> > > the casting?
> >
> > No.

Yes, they do.

> > PHB: page 175 Aiming A Spell:
> > Some spells restrict you to willing targets only.

And /hold person/ isn't one of them.

<snip>

> Cool beans. That will do the trick then.

No, it won't.

-Bluto
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 6:25:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jeff Goslin wrote:
> <Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de> wrote in message
> news:1126696338.318358.275330@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> > "Unconscious: Knocked out and helpless.
> > Unconsciousness can result from having current hit points
> > between -1 and -9, or from nonlethal damage in excess of
> > current hit points."
> >
> > I think this is a less conscious state than sleeping.
>
> Well, I suppose, but... still... it's hard to imagine that a person dead
> asleep has the wits about him to stave off an attack on what is the
> conscious mind.

Asleep, dead asleep, dreaming, having nightmares all differ.
We have to keep the rules and reality apart.
If you or Joseph or somebody else cites a rule stating that
sleeping characters are unconscious - fine.
I couldn't find such a rule and I already cited what I found.

> Ever talk to someone while they are sleeping? They'll tell you ANYTHING.

Some people do in some phases of their sleep,
others (I include myself) wake up immediately on the gentlest whisper.

> > If you still insist that sleeping = unconscious, you're right.
>
> Well, it's just hard to imagine a person fighting off an attack on their
> willpower when they aren't consciously aware of the attack.

*When* they aren't, yes. But aren't they, when asleep?

You could houserule a model for sleep phases, where the
sleep phases are rolled randomly, giving you various penalties
to Will saves or no save at all.
IMO simply denying the save should be backed up by the rules 100%.
If they cannot 'win' the encounter, there must be a plausible cause.
If you stage the encounter, your players might accuse you of
railroading.

> > If sleeping characters don't get Will saves, a clever opponent would
> > "Hold" all sleeping party members and then kill the guard(s), if any.
>
> Yes, they would. ;)  Gives moment for pause, doesn't it? ;)  I can hear
> evil gears grinding in evil DM heads across the world.

Come on, it's more fun if their doom is of their own making and not
evil DM "railroading".

LL
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 7:25:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Michael Scott Brown wrote:
> <raises hand>
> Would someone please kick this moron? It's early and I haven't had my
> coffee.
>

They serve coffee in the asylum?

LL
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 7:39:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

<Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:1126690137.229677.116490@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Sleeping targets are not unconscious.

<raises hand>
Would someone please kick this moron? It's early and I haven't had my
coffee.

-Michael
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 7:40:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:WOOdnRvibOGuabreRVn-iw@comcast.com...
> Err. I don't know how YOU sleep, but when *I* sleep, I tend to consider
> myself unconscious.

You've yet to demonstrate a working consciousness when you're awake,
either.

-Michael
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 7:46:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

<Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:1126696338.318358.275330@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Jeff Goslin wrote:
> To game characters the rules apply and...
> "Unconscious: Knocked out and helpless.
> Unconsciousness can result from having current hit points
> between -1 and -9, or from nonlethal damage in excess of
> current hit points."
> I think this is a less conscious state than sleeping.
> You *can't awake* from an unconscious state,

Your idiocy is making my eyes bleed. You can't wake up from a Sleep
spell on your own, either. The ability to wake up is not how we evaluate
whether or not a person is unconscious, nor is *how* they were rendered
unconscious relevant. The issue is a very simple one - is the character's
mind awake and active, or is it "off", temporarily or otherwise? Sleeping
people are unconscious. People who have been hurt so badly they are in a
coma are unconscious. People who have been pummelled by nonlethal damage are
unconscious.
It's just that easy.

> If sleeping characters don't get Will saves, a clever opponent would
> "Hold" all sleeping party members and then kill the guard(s), if any.

Which is why it is dangerous to be ambushed when you are asleep. Did
you notice the bit where you can coup a sleeping person, too?

-Michael
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 8:10:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Joseph" <jovu@verizon.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns96D13F99F749E619void@199.45.49.11...
> "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in
> news:XICdnb6Ot6PFb7reRVn-rg@comcast.com:
> > Trying to capture the (powerful) PC's, dontchaknowit.
>
> Of course if they do wake up after the spell affects them, Hold Person
> will allow them saves each round to break it.

Then I should make sure the guys who are kidnapping them move quickly to tie
them up. ;) 

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 9:26:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jeff Goslin wrote:
> Does a sleeping(naturally sleeping) character get a save against the effects
> of a spell such as Hold Person, assuming they aren't woken by the casting?
>

Sure, why not? They get Reflex saves while sleeping, why not Will saves?
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 9:35:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Joseph wrote:
> "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in
> news:-YGdnXEd2f-YRrreRVn-tA@comcast.com:
>
>
>>Does a sleeping(naturally sleeping) character get a save against the
>>effects of a spell such as Hold Person, assuming they aren't woken by
>>the casting?
>
>
> No.
>
> PHB: page 175 Aiming A Spell:
> Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a
> willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're
> flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically
> considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or
> helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned,
> or stunned) is not automatically willing.
>
> Hold Person has a range of 100+ feet and a Will save negates entry, so if
> the character doesn't wake up he doesn't get a save.

You know, if you really object to being named "Joseph the Stupid,"
you've got to stop posting things like this.
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 9:38:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jeff Goslin wrote:
> <Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de> wrote in message
> news:1126687822.319532.238960@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
>>Sleeping is subsumed under "Helpless", but suffers no Fort or Will
>>penalties, only Reflex is at -5 because Dex is treated as 0.
>
>
> So, a guy who is sleeping gets a save against will-based attacks, despite
> the fact that he's unconscious? Interesting.

He gets Reflex saves, too, though with an effective Dexterity of zero.

>>"To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong
>>voice."
>>So the sleeping victim will probably wake up anyway.
>
>
> I was thinking about a spellcaster decently far enough away from the sleeper
> to cast it without rousing him, or in an environment where loud noises
> aren't uncommon(ie a tavern, etc).
>
> Basically, I'm trying to cook up a way to capture the PC's without killing
> them, and without the players saying "but, but, but!" I was thinking hold
> person while they are sleeping might do the trick. Cast the spell, then
> move in and bind them and haul them off. Doesn't matter if they wake up if
> they are paralyzed, you know?
>

Or nets, for that matter. Or dogpiling with more attackers than they
can fend off with AOOs.
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 9:40:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jeff Goslin wrote:
> "Joseph" <jovu@verizon.invalid> wrote in message
> news:Xns96D1342085BFF619void@199.45.49.11...
>
>>"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in
>>news:-YGdnXEd2f-YRrreRVn-tA@comcast.com:
>>
>>
>>>Does a sleeping(naturally sleeping) character get a save against the
>>>effects of a spell such as Hold Person, assuming they aren't woken by
>>>the casting?
>>
>>No.
>>
>>PHB: page 175 Aiming A Spell:
>>Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a
>>willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're
>>flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are
>
> automatically
>
>>considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or
>>helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed,
>
> pinned,
>
>>or stunned) is not automatically willing.
>>
>>Hold Person has a range of 100+ feet and a Will save negates entry, so if
>>the character doesn't wake up he doesn't get a save.
>
>
> Cool beans. That will do the trick then.
>
> Trying to capture the (powerful) PC's, dontchaknowit.
>

If you're going to just make stuff up, and particularly if you're using
the advice of someone who DOESN'T EVEN PLAY THE GAME, as Joseph has
stated, why the hell are you even asking advice on how the rules work.
Just use DM fiat.
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 9:43:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jeff Goslin wrote:
> <Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de> wrote in message
> news:1126690137.229677.116490@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
>>Sleeping targets are not unconscious. Both are considered helpless
>>though.
>
>
> Err. I don't know how YOU sleep, but when *I* sleep, I tend to consider
> myself unconscious.
>
> I wouldn't mind if you could find a rule cite for that particular
> interpretation, so I don't get bit in the ass when I try to hold them and
> they are asleep.

Sleeping characters are helpless, just as unconscious ones are.

>>Being asleep is not the same as voluntarily giving up a saving throw.
>
>
> A willing target automatically fails his will save, doesn't he? Unconscious
> people are considered automatically willing, according to the rule
> previously cited. Sleeping people tend to sleep in an unconscious state, at
> least around these parts.

No, he does not, you moronic baboon. Read the very first sentence of
the paragraph Joseph the Stupid typed out. Here, I'll show you:

"Some spells restrict you to willing targets only."

Does "Hold Person" fit that criteria?

> Assuming one doesn't rouse the sleeper in some way(such as by casting too
> close, and waking by the verbal components of the spell, eg), the sleeper is
> going to be unconscious when the spell is cast, resulting in an automatic
> failure on the part of the victim... right?

Are you being an idiot on purpose?

> Unless sleeping people aren't considered unconscious by the rules. That's
> something I would appreciate positive confirmation on. Thanks!
>

Jesus, Mary and Joseph! Hand out the bandages, it's going to be a long
night...
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 9:48:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Joseph wrote:
> Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de wrote in
> news:1126690137.229677.116490@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>>Joseph wrote:
>>
>>>"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in
>>>news:-YGdnXEd2f-YRrreRVn-tA@comcast.com:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Does a sleeping(naturally sleeping) character get a save against
>>>>the effects of a spell such as Hold Person, assuming they aren't
>>>>woken by the casting?
>>>
>>>No.
>>
>>Yes, actually.
>
>
> I prefer the PHB text over that vague DMG helpless entry.

In other words, you want to ignore one rule set and use another one that
you're misinterpreting because it supports your beliefs.

>>>PHB: page 175 Aiming A Spell:
>>>Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself
>>>as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even
>>>if you're
>>
>>"Hold Person" does not require the target to be willing, the victim is
>>granted a Will save each round.
>
>
> Irrelevent. One can choose to willing accept the spell. PHB page 177:
> Voluntarily Giving Up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego
> a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result.

You, like Goslin, overlooked the very thing you typed that negates this
whole point, JtS. Look at what you wrote:

"Some spells restrict you to willing targets only."

Does "Hold Person" fit that? No, it does not. Now write that a hundred
times on the blackboard until you've learned it.

>>>flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are
>>>automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious
>>>but immobile or
>>
>>Sleeping targets are not unconscious. Both are considered helpless
>>though.
>
>
> The PHB gives a clear implication that being asleep is considered being
> unconscious helpless (automatically willing) not conscious (not
> automatically willing) helpless.

Neither of those things disallows a save.

>>>helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed,
>>>pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
>>
>>Being asleep is not the same as voluntarily giving up a saving throw.
>
>
> Being unconscious makes one automatically willing, and sleep is a form
> of unconsciousness.

Only where willingness is a restriction on the spell's effect. Really,
JtS, you're just making yourself look more like an idiot than ever. I
suppose in a Cope-less vacuum, idiocy will be drawn in to replace it.
You and Goslin seem to be fighting over that niche.
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 10:11:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de wrote:
> Michael Scott Brown wrote:

>>Sleeping
>>people are unconscious.
>
>
> In the game? If you cite the rule, that defines sleeping = unconscious,
> I'll believe you.

Note that the Sleep spell cannot target unconscious creatures; why do
you think that might be? Could it be that they are already unconscious?
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 10:13:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jeff Goslin wrote:
> "Joseph" <jovu@verizon.invalid> wrote in message
> news:Xns96D13F99F749E619void@199.45.49.11...
>
>>"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in
>>news:XICdnb6Ot6PFb7reRVn-rg@comcast.com:
>>
>>>Trying to capture the (powerful) PC's, dontchaknowit.
>>
>>Of course if they do wake up after the spell affects them, Hold Person
>>will allow them saves each round to break it.
>
>
> Then I should make sure the guys who are kidnapping them move quickly to tie
> them up. ;) 
>

Like I said, why are you rationalizing it with bad rules
interpretations? Just declare them captured by DM fiat and be done with
it. That's what you want to do, anyway. But don't be surprised if they
kick back against such arrant nonsense.
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 10:16:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Telendil Silverleaf wrote:

> (Personally, and this is my 2 bits, I'd rule that NO, they don't get
> saving throws. In *my* mind, sleeping persons are unconscious; if the
> rules don't seem clear enough, I'd have to choose one interpretation,
> and that's it. That's because it makes the most sense to me, and YMMV.
> Even if it WAS the official rule, I'd likely Rule Zero it.)
>

You can't argue with a confident man.
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 11:11:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

<Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:1126733119.135268.69840@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> IMO simply denying the save should be backed up by the rules 100%.
> If they cannot 'win' the encounter, there must be a plausible cause.

Must there? Why? Who's to say what the reason is? All the PC's need know
is that they wake up and find themselves paralyzed, at which point they can
commence to stave off the spell, the point at which they have enough
consciousness to begin resisting it's effects.

> If you stage the encounter, your players might accuse you of
> railroading.

Well, I'm not above railroading if it serves my purposes.

> > > If sleeping characters don't get Will saves, a clever opponent would
> > > "Hold" all sleeping party members and then kill the guard(s), if any.
> >
> > Yes, they would. ;)  Gives moment for pause, doesn't it? ;)  I can
hear
> > evil gears grinding in evil DM heads across the world.
>
> Come on, it's more fun if their doom is of their own making and not
> evil DM "railroading".

Actually, I don't much care how their demise is met, except that I will
never *KILL* a character without giving them a chance to prevent it. I have
no problem railroading PC's into a kidnapping, as long as I give them a
chance to escape and retrieve their gear.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 1:10:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Some Guy" <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote in message
news:fo3We.15948$sx2.3005@fed1read02...
> > So, a guy who is sleeping gets a save against will-based attacks,
despite
> > the fact that he's unconscious? Interesting.
>
> He gets Reflex saves, too, though with an effective Dexterity of zero.

Annnnnnd... that sounds *logical* to you?

When *I* arouse from a slumber to see a man about a horse, I have a hard
time hitting the bowl without focussing for a few seconds. And supposedly
that's when I'm awake! I can't even begin to think how difficult it would
be to hit the bowl when I'm asleep.

Although, one night I was pretty hammered, totally zonked, but had to pee.
I found something vaguely round with what seemed to be a toilet seat and did
my business and went back to sleep. I failed my reflex save, there... I
pissed in the clothes hamper. My wife wasn't too thrilled about that.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 1:10:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jeff Goslin wrote:
> "Some Guy" <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote in message
> news:fo3We.15948$sx2.3005@fed1read02...
>
>>>So, a guy who is sleeping gets a save against will-based attacks,
>
> despite
>
>>>the fact that he's unconscious? Interesting.
>>
>>He gets Reflex saves, too, though with an effective Dexterity of zero.
>
>
> Annnnnnd... that sounds *logical* to you?

It is logical within the context of *this game* (D&D 3.5).

> When *I* arouse from a slumber to see a man about a horse, I have a hard
> time hitting the bowl without focussing for a few seconds. And supposedly
> that's when I'm awake! I can't even begin to think how difficult it would
> be to hit the bowl when I'm asleep.

Well, it's easier to be accurate with long arms than short arms, as the
gunowners say. I may add I do not have any accuracy troubles in this
regard.

I will say this for you, Jeff--you handle your stupidity spankings with
much greater aplomb than the other ninnies trolling RGFD at the moment.

> Although, one night I was pretty hammered, totally zonked, but had to pee.
> I found something vaguely round with what seemed to be a toilet seat and did
> my business and went back to sleep. I failed my reflex save, there... I
> pissed in the clothes hamper. My wife wasn't too thrilled about that.


Good thing for you that a garbage disposal is way, way down at the
bottom of the sink...
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 1:12:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Some Guy" <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote in message
news:Fs3We.15951$sx2.566@fed1read02...
> Jeff Goslin wrote:
> > Unless sleeping people aren't considered unconscious by the rules.
That's
> > something I would appreciate positive confirmation on. Thanks!
> >
>
> Jesus, Mary and Joseph! Hand out the bandages, it's going to be a long
> night...

I'll note that no cite to state that sleeping people AREN'T considered
unconscious has been provided. I guess it WILL be a long night.

It's come down to interpretation, to cut you short from calling me a moron.
Nobody can seem to find a specific rule that states that (naturally)
sleeping people are considered unconscious as far as the rules go. If you
have something specific to share, please do. Until then, it's just your
interpretations. Thanks for the interpretations, though, they were most
illuminating.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 1:12:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jeff Goslin wrote:
> "Some Guy" <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote in message
> news:Fs3We.15951$sx2.566@fed1read02...
>
>>Jeff Goslin wrote:
>>
>>>Unless sleeping people aren't considered unconscious by the rules.
>
> That's
>
>>>something I would appreciate positive confirmation on. Thanks!
>>>
>>
>>Jesus, Mary and Joseph! Hand out the bandages, it's going to be a long
>>night...
>
>
> I'll note that no cite to state that sleeping people AREN'T considered
> unconscious has been provided. I guess it WILL be a long night.

As I wrote in reply to Lorenz:

"Note that the Sleep spell cannot target unconscious creatures; why do
you think that might be? Could it be that they are already unconscious?"

> It's come down to interpretation, to cut you short from calling me a moron.

I call 'em as I see 'em. No arguing balls and strikes or you'll have to
go grab some pine!

> Nobody can seem to find a specific rule that states that (naturally)
> sleeping people are considered unconscious as far as the rules go. If you
> have something specific to share, please do. Until then, it's just your
> interpretations. Thanks for the interpretations, though, they were most
> illuminating.

Like I said, you take your ass-whoopings with a great deal of aplomb.
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 1:14:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Some Guy" <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote in message
news:sc3We.15941$sx2.4634@fed1read02...
> Jeff Goslin wrote:
> > Does a sleeping(naturally sleeping) character get a save against the
effects
> > of a spell such as Hold Person, assuming they aren't woken by the
casting?
> >
>
> Sure, why not? They get Reflex saves while sleeping, why not Will saves?

Again, that caveat makes SENSE to you? If a *PIT* suddenly appeared beneath
me while I was sleeping, unless the pit appeared 5 feet to the side of me, I
gotta tellya, I'm going into the pit.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 1:14:14 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jeff Goslin wrote:
> "Some Guy" <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote in message
> news:sc3We.15941$sx2.4634@fed1read02...
>
>>Jeff Goslin wrote:
>>
>>>Does a sleeping(naturally sleeping) character get a save against the
>
> effects
>
>>>of a spell such as Hold Person, assuming they aren't woken by the
>
> casting?
>
>>Sure, why not? They get Reflex saves while sleeping, why not Will saves?
>
>
> Again, that caveat makes SENSE to you? If a *PIT* suddenly appeared beneath
> me while I was sleeping, unless the pit appeared 5 feet to the side of me, I
> gotta tellya, I'm going into the pit.
>

And a good thing that would be...

It makes sense for the characters in the game. If that doesn't mesh
with what you like, house rule it away or go play GURPS or something.
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 1:26:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jeff Goslin wrote:
> <Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de> wrote in message
> news:1126690137.229677.116490@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> > Sleeping targets are not unconscious. Both are considered helpless
> > though.
>
> Err. I don't know how YOU sleep, but when *I* sleep, I tend to consider
> myself unconscious.
>
> I wouldn't mind if you could find a rule cite for that particular
> interpretation, so I don't get bit in the ass when I try to hold them and
> they are asleep.
>
> > Being asleep is not the same as voluntarily giving up a saving throw.
>
> A willing target automatically fails his will save, doesn't he? Unconscious
> people are considered automatically willing, according to the rule
> previously cited. Sleeping people tend to sleep in an unconscious state, at
> least around these parts.
>
> Assuming one doesn't rouse the sleeper in some way(such as by casting too
> close, and waking by the verbal components of the spell, eg), the sleeper is
> going to be unconscious when the spell is cast, resulting in an automatic
> failure on the part of the victim... right?
>
> Unless sleeping people aren't considered unconscious by the rules. That's
> something I would appreciate positive confirmation on. Thanks!
>
> --
> Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info

Sigh.

You asked if sleeping people get saving throws. You are answered yes
they do. Now you are arguing no they don't, offering reasons why. Why
bother asking the question?

Gerald Katz
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 2:07:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Hadsil wrote:
> Jeff Goslin wrote:
>
>><Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de> wrote in message
>>news:1126690137.229677.116490@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>Sleeping targets are not unconscious. Both are considered helpless
>>>though.
>>
>>Err. I don't know how YOU sleep, but when *I* sleep, I tend to consider
>>myself unconscious.
>>
>>I wouldn't mind if you could find a rule cite for that particular
>>interpretation, so I don't get bit in the ass when I try to hold them and
>>they are asleep.
>>
>>
>>>Being asleep is not the same as voluntarily giving up a saving throw.
>>
>>A willing target automatically fails his will save, doesn't he? Unconscious
>>people are considered automatically willing, according to the rule
>>previously cited. Sleeping people tend to sleep in an unconscious state, at
>>least around these parts.
>>
>>Assuming one doesn't rouse the sleeper in some way(such as by casting too
>>close, and waking by the verbal components of the spell, eg), the sleeper is
>>going to be unconscious when the spell is cast, resulting in an automatic
>>failure on the part of the victim... right?
>>
>>Unless sleeping people aren't considered unconscious by the rules. That's
>>something I would appreciate positive confirmation on. Thanks!
>>
>>--
>>Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
>
>
> Sigh.
>
> You asked if sleeping people get saving throws. You are answered yes
> they do. Now you are arguing no they don't, offering reasons why. Why
> bother asking the question?
>
> Gerald Katz
>

Sing along with me:

"Because... It's Goslin..."
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 2:12:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Joseph" <jovu@verizon.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns96D1342085BFF619void@199.45.49.11...
> "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in
> news:-YGdnXEd2f-YRrreRVn-tA@comcast.com:
>
> > Does a sleeping(naturally sleeping) character get a save against the
> > effects of a spell such as Hold Person, assuming they aren't woken by
> > the casting?
>
> No.
>
> PHB: page 175 Aiming A Spell:
> Some spells restrict you to willing targets only.

The rest of this paragraph is refering to spells that only
work on willing targets.

> Declaring yourself as a
> willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're
> flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are
automatically
> considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or
> helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed,
pinned,
> or stunned) is not automatically willing.
>
So none of this applies to Hold Person.

Geoff.
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 2:16:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:07ednf2kqaJpbLreRVn-hw@comcast.com...
>
> Basically, I'm trying to cook up a way to capture the PC's without killing
> them, and without the players saying "but, but, but!" I was thinking hold
> person while they are sleeping might do the trick. Cast the spell, then
> move in and bind them and haul them off. Doesn't matter if they wake up
if
> they are paralyzed, you know?
>
A Silent Teleport would work.

'Silent' so they don't wake up, and Teleport works on willing targets, so
sleeping
characters would be considered willing.

Geoff.
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 4:26:50 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Some Guy wrote:
> Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de wrote:
> > Michael Scott Brown wrote:
>
> >>Sleeping
> >>people are unconscious.
> >
> >
> > In the game? If you cite the rule, that defines sleeping = unconscious,
> > I'll believe you.
>
> Note that the Sleep spell cannot target unconscious creatures; why do
> you think that might be? Could it be that they are already unconscious?

You're not making much sense (to me) with your line of reasoning.
Consciousness "level" goes down IMO from awake > sleeping >
unconscious.
Of course, you can't make an unconscious creature asleep with a spell.
It's condition would *improve*, which is not the intended effect of
all sleep spells I know.

I just see more than two states of the mind in this context.
If you don't, just play that way...

LL
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 5:12:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jeff Goslin wrote:
> "Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:HL5We.10362$4P5.6430@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> > > Asleep, dead asleep, dreaming, having nightmares all differ.
> >
> > AND ALL OF THEM INVOLVE BEING *UNCONSCIOUS* AS A PREREQUISITE.
> >
> > You need to show where in the rules sleeping characters are treated as
> > *conscious*, you incorrigible dipshit.
>
> Don't look now, MSB, but you're agreeing with me. Is it raining frogs over
> there, perhaps locusts have found their way to your neck of the woods, the
> seas boiling, moon as black as sackcloth, something along those lines? I
> know, hell has frozen over, right? Monkeys flying out of your butt?
> Something strange is happening over there, that much I *know*.
>

LOL!

It's because he loves me and yearns for my
attention - it's really a tragedy.

LL
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 5:39:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 09:07:21 GMT, Joseph <jovu@verizon.invalid> scribed
into the ether:

>"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in
>news:-YGdnXEd2f-YRrreRVn-tA@comcast.com:
>
>> Does a sleeping(naturally sleeping) character get a save against the
>> effects of a spell such as Hold Person, assuming they aren't woken by
>> the casting?
>
>No.
>
>PHB: page 175 Aiming A Spell:
>Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a
>willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're
>flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically
>considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or
>helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned,
>or stunned) is not automatically willing.
>
>Hold Person has a range of 100+ feet and a Will save negates entry, so if
>the character doesn't wake up he doesn't get a save.

Being unconcious is not the same thing as being asleep. They would not be
automatically willing. Yes they would get a save.

A better question would be: does failing the save wake them up? A sleeping
person would probably not know they had been held. Being held doesn't stop
you from breathing or anything calamitous like that where your brain would
go into alert mode.
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 5:47:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 05:56:38 -0400, "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net>
scribed into the ether:

><Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de> wrote in message
>news:1126690137.229677.116490@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>> Sleeping targets are not unconscious. Both are considered helpless
>> though.
>
>Err. I don't know how YOU sleep, but when *I* sleep, I tend to consider
>myself unconscious.

The difference between the two is fairly vast. A sleeping person can wake
up on their own, an unconcious person cannot.

Take a sleeping person, and put their head underwater...they'll wake up. An
unconcious person will drown.

>Unless sleeping people aren't considered unconscious by the rules. That's
>something I would appreciate positive confirmation on. Thanks!

According to the description of the sleep spell:

Sleeping creatures are helpless. Slapping or wounding awakens affected
creatures by regular noise does not [normal sleep would not work like that
of course]. Awakening a creature is a standard action .

Sleep does not target unconcious creatures, constructs, or undead
creatures.

In the combat section:
When your subdual damage exceeds your current hit points, you fall to the
floor unconcious. While unconcious, you are helpless.

Each full minute [10 melees] that you're unconcious, you have a 10% chance
to wake up and be staggered until your hit points exceed your subdual
damage again.

There are a number of ways that being sleeping or unconcious is similar,
but they are absolutely not the same thing.
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 6:34:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Some Guy" <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote in message
news:MU3We.16165$sx2.6874@fed1read02...
> Jeff Goslin wrote:
> > Then I should make sure the guys who are kidnapping them move quickly to
tie
> > them up. ;) 
>
> Like I said, why are you rationalizing it with bad rules
> interpretations? Just declare them captured by DM fiat and be done with
> it. That's what you want to do, anyway. But don't be surprised if they
> kick back against such arrant nonsense.

Which is why I wouldn't mind some rule on my side. Any time things happen
in the game that the players don't much like or appreciate, they kick back,
regardless of any railroading that takes place. At least with some rule on
my side(which, through personal interpretation, I now have), I can point to
something and say "see, this is how they did it." Then they'll grumble and
accept it. The grumbling will take place regardless(if I do something the
players don't like at first), it will just take less time to get over if I
have a rule to cover it.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 6:39:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
news:ncjhi1h7vve8dd8kovsc85bd5l2pcgjnoa@4ax.com...
> A better question would be: does failing the save wake them up? A sleeping
> person would probably not know they had been held. Being held doesn't stop
> you from breathing or anything calamitous like that where your brain would
> go into alert mode.

Well, in this particular situation, it doesn't much matter if it would wake
them. The situation I'm imagining is one where someone casts the spell from
far away, then other people tie up the PC. The being tied up bit will
SURELY wake them from whatever sleep they are in, so as soon as THAT
happens, they'll get a save.

This would be most problematic in taking the tin can types in the party.
Anyone super strong would be able to effectively fight back, even unarmed,
if the hold person spell doesn't work. Which would make a lot of noise.
Perhaps a silence spell is in order as well....

Silence someone, go in, take their weapons and armor, then do the hold
person from afar, then tie them up. That would probably work.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 6:59:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
news:nfjhi1tlsnh92ld4nsrmduaq1tdlopkefq@4ax.com...
> >Err. I don't know how YOU sleep, but when *I* sleep, I tend to consider
> >myself unconscious.
>
> The difference between the two is fairly vast. A sleeping person can wake
> up on their own, an unconcious person cannot.

That is very true. But we're not talking about someone being incapaciatedly
unconscious, merely "unconscious" in the sense that they aren't conscious.

I guess I'm looking at it from a very binary point of view. Someone is
either conscious or not. If they are NOT conscious, that could mean a
variety of things, including dead, knocked out(injured to the point of
unconsciousness), and even sleeping.

Suffice it to say, I would never give someone a save vs anything if they
weren't conscious in the "I am awake and moving, etc" kind of way. Someone
mentioned that characters get REFLEX saves even when they are asleep? I'd
like to know just how far into fantasy the game goes when someone asleep can
have the catlike reflexes needed to make a reflex save. A fortitude save I
can see, someone gets poisoned, it's just a question of your body, can you
survive the poison, being awake doesn't have much to do with it, but not a
reflex or will save, you need to be awake to actively resist a spell's
effects, or awake to have the reflexes necessary to avoid something
requiring a reflex save.

> >Unless sleeping people aren't considered unconscious by the rules.
That's
> >something I would appreciate positive confirmation on. Thanks!
>
> According to the description of the sleep spell:
>
> Sleeping creatures are helpless.

Well, I can't recall the specific rules, and don't really want to go back
through the thread, but I'm fairly certain that "helpless" is part of the
definition that requires someone to be "automatically willing", from the
previous rule cited. Is that not the case?

> In the combat section:
> When your subdual damage exceeds your current hit points, you fall to the
> floor unconcious. While unconcious, you are helpless.

It sounds to me that they are saying, in a rather direct way, that sleeping
= helpless and unconscious = helpless... Therefore, rules-wise... sleeping
= unconscious(x=z, y=z -> x=y)? If one does not allow a will save, why
does the other?

> There are a number of ways that being sleeping or unconcious is similar,
> but they are absolutely not the same thing.

Hrm. It seems pretty clear, from your own statements, that they ARE the
same thing... ???

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 7:07:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Some Guy" <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote in message
news:cp4We.16409$sx2.10278@fed1read02...
> >>He gets Reflex saves, too, though with an effective Dexterity of zero.
> >
> > Annnnnnd... that sounds *logical* to you?
>
> It is logical within the context of *this game* (D&D 3.5).

Well, I wouldn't say that. It's apparantly LEGAL within the context of the
game(I haven't actually looked up the rule, I'll take your word for it,
though). I can't agree it makes logical sense, though.

> Well, it's easier to be accurate with long arms than short arms, as the
> gunowners say. I may add I do not have any accuracy troubles in this
> regard.

Touche'.

> I will say this for you, Jeff--you handle your stupidity spankings with
> much greater aplomb than the other ninnies trolling RGFD at the moment.

I try to be magnanimous.

That said, I honestly don't think it's a case of a spanking. I'm just
asking the rules lawyers for the rules they would rely on in such
situations. The rules they are coming up with aren't adding up to me.
While they say that a person who is sleeping (by the spell) is helpless, and
a person who is knocked out via damage, read "unconscious", is also
helpless, but there is a difference between a natural sleeper and a spell
sleeper for some reason, a reason that is, frankly, beyond me, except to
note that some people are lighter sleepers than others, which isn't good
enough if you ask me. The rules need to apply evenly. Spell sleep makes
one helpless(as far as the rules go), why not natural sleep?

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 7:15:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Hadsil" <forumite@netzero.com> wrote in message
news:1126758417.096366.99080@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> You asked if sleeping people get saving throws. You are answered yes
> they do. Now you are arguing no they don't, offering reasons why. Why
> bother asking the question?

I asked the question and got contradictory information returned to me. I'm
seeking clarification, which people are providing. Thanks!

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 7:20:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

<Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:1126733119.135268.69840@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Well, I suppose, but... still... it's hard to imagine that a person dead
> > asleep has the wits about him to stave off an attack on what is the
> > conscious mind.
>
> Asleep, dead asleep, dreaming, having nightmares all differ.

AND ALL OF THEM INVOLVE BEING *UNCONSCIOUS* AS A PREREQUISITE.

You need to show where in the rules sleeping characters are treated as
*conscious*, you incorrigible dipshit.

> > Well, it's just hard to imagine a person fighting off an attack on their
> > willpower when they aren't consciously aware of the attack.
>
> *When* they aren't, yes. But aren't they, when asleep?

Are they consciously awake when they are asleep? ARE YOU LISTENING TO
WHAT YOUARE TYPING?
It takes a standard action for an *ally* to wake up a character. Yet
you wish to tell us that recovering consciousness happens *so* quickly if a
spell is cast upon him that the character becomes conscious before the spell
even finishes? Puh-lease. Characters who awaken because of a coup do so
*after* they've been stabbed.

> You could houserule a model for sleep phases, where the
> sleep phases are rolled randomly, giving you various penalties
> to Will saves or no save at all.

<points>
<laughs>

> IMO simply denying the save should be backed up by the rules 100%.

Which they do, by virtue of the fact that in English, sleeping persons
ARE NOT CONSCIOUS, and the game has rules for how to treat unconscious
persons.

-Michael
!