Waterdavian Economics...

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To start, if I spent half as much time on work as I do on gaming, I'd
be a millionaire...

I've been working on some economic models for Waterdeep. (Real
fascinating stuff, huh?) According to my research, a medieval
cultivated land could support 180 people per square mile, or roughly 1
person per 3 acres. This takes into account blight, famine, bad crops,
and primitive farming techniques in the 10th-12th centuries. For the
Realms, with the slightly more benevolent deities and happy magic help,
I'll tripple this number, to 1 person per acre.

A square mile is 460 acres. Waterdeep has a population of ~1,300,000.
It's a coastal town, so let's say it gets 1/3 of its food from the sea,
despite it's port being too small for such a fleet of fishing vessels.
That leaves us with 870,000 people to feed, or 870,000 acres of
farmland.

This is about 1,900 square miles of farmland, or a square that is 43
miles on a side, or a circle with roughly that diameter. This means
the land is ditch to ditch with farms, every single area used to it
fullest.

On top of this, we have to support the farmers, manors, and support
staff which makes the farming possible. The average medieval farm in
England, which is about the same climate and latitude as WD, was 30
acres. Family of 6. So that is 14 farms per square mile, which makes
for 84 peasants. The average manor took 60 people to staff, including
the nobles, all their servants, and all the craftsmen and professionals
to run it, sheriff, in short, everyone. And
the average manor had 10 square miles of farmland in 12th cent.
England. So, 840 peasants, plus 60 staff, is 900 people to farm 10
square miles. ... ...

1,900 square miles divided by 10 square miles is 190 manors. 190*900
is another 171,000 mouths to feed.

So the total population of WD, including all the peasnts to support it,
is 1,470,000. And this means that all the land for 50 miles in all
directions is farmed. But on all the official maps, none of these
manors exist.

(I've already figured out, according to the DMG, how many clerics there
are in WD to create food. It's about 60, and even if that is the only
spell they cast, it's not even going to make a difference.)

Okay, so lets say they import food from other towns via ocean trade, as
they must just to survive. Let's say they get another 1/3 of their food
from imports, that is still all the land within 35 miles. So much for
the "Rat Hills". Wheat farms, now!

Please remember that I fudged the numbers in WotC's favor all the way
thru this, and it's still crazy!


Comments?
D


--
"Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate."

"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

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kyrcant@kyrcant.net wrote in
news:1126817987.803444.178030@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> A square mile is 460 acres.

Er, no, a square mile is 640 acres.

--
"So there is no third law of Terrydynamics."
-- William Hyde
Terry Austin
www.hyperbooks.com

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"Christopher Adams" <mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> wrote in
news:RimWe.48288$FA3.28405@news-server.bigpond.net.au:

> No 33 Secretary wrote:
>> kyrcant@kyrcant.net wrote:
>>
>>> Perhaps they use portals to bring it in. It makes some sense, I
>>> guess, but certainly makes the game a lot less medieval.
>>
>> Since when has anything D&Dish been even remotely medieval?
>
> Damn straight. People applying medieval European assumptions to "D&D
> Land" are incredibly naive.
>
Particularly given the sorts of fiction that inspired it.

--
"So there is no third law of Terrydynamics."
-- William Hyde
Terry Austin
www.hyperbooks.com

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

No 33 Secretary wrote:
>> Perhaps they use portals to bring it in. It makes some sense, I guess, but certainly makes the game a lot less medieval.
>>
> Since when has anything D&Dish been even remotely medieval?

You mean they didn't have fireballs back then?

--
Stephen Weir

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On 15 Sep 2005 13:59:47 -0700, kyrcant@kyrcant.net carved upon a
tablet of ether:

> To start, if I spent half as much time on work as I do on gaming, I'd
> be a millionaire...
>
> I've been working on some economic models for Waterdeep. (Real
> fascinating stuff, huh?) According to my research, a medieval
> cultivated land could support 180 people per square mile, or roughly 1
> person per 3 acres. This takes into account blight, famine, bad crops,
> and primitive farming techniques in the 10th-12th centuries. For the
> Realms, with the slightly more benevolent deities and happy magic help,
> I'll tripple this number, to 1 person per acre.

180 people per square mile is probably fairly generous - 100 per
square mile under cultivation is a more common figure.

> A square mile is 460 acres. Waterdeep has a population of ~1,300,000.
> It's a coastal town, so let's say it gets 1/3 of its food from the sea,
> despite it's port being too small for such a fleet of fishing vessels.
> That leaves us with 870,000 people to feed, or 870,000 acres of
> farmland.

Many cities had the fishing 'port' outside the city, where the smell
wouldn't affect the noses of those good enough to live inside its
walls. While I don't recall such a place in the material, a fishing
town a mile or so south of the port would work nicely.

> This is about 1,900 square miles of farmland, or a square that is 43
> miles on a side, or a circle with roughly that diameter. This means
> the land is ditch to ditch with farms, every single area used to it
> fullest.

Which would never happen, so it's not even worth considering.

> On top of this, we have to support the farmers, manors, and support
> staff which makes the farming possible. The average medieval farm in
> England, which is about the same climate and latitude as WD, was 30
> acres. Family of 6. So that is 14 farms per square mile, which makes
> for 84 peasants. The average manor took 60 people to staff, including
> the nobles, all their servants, and all the craftsmen and professionals
> to run it, sheriff, in short, everyone. And
> the average manor had 10 square miles of farmland in 12th cent.
> England. So, 840 peasants, plus 60 staff, is 900 people to farm 10
> square miles. ... ...

Waterdeep is simply not in a feudal or manorial environment, so using
those measures for its hinterland is foolish.

> 1,900 square miles divided by 10 square miles is 190 manors. 190*900
> is another 171,000 mouths to feed.
>
> So the total population of WD, including all the peasnts to support it,
> is 1,470,000. And this means that all the land for 50 miles in all
> directions is farmed. But on all the official maps, none of these
> manors exist.

If it's all nicely settled and well patrolled, you won't see manors -
they aren't necessary. What you'll have is farming estates with
nobles' country houses on them. That's what the source material shows.

> (I've already figured out, according to the DMG, how many clerics there
> are in WD to create food. It's about 60, and even if that is the only
> spell they cast, it's not even going to make a difference.)

The DMG likely considerably underestimates the number of high level
spellcasters in a FR city, especially one like Waterdeep. Even
ignoring the FR's higher power and magic levels, the DMG gives a
metropolis as 25,001+ people, but Waterdeep has a population of
132,000+ people in the off-season, and five times that in summer.

That last point alone tells us that your whole premise is flawed - it
shows cheap large scale transportation is available, and in use, which
means you can spread the farming area out much further, and import
food at reasonable prices from far afield.

Waterdeep sits near to the mouth of a large river that runs right
through its hinterlands, which are at about a hundred miles across and
run up the river 120-150 miles, and most of which is open country. The
scale of river and road traffic would be staggering by medieval
standards, but Waterdeep, even in summer, is not as big as the largest
Roman cities, so it's certainly a manageable level of supply.

> Okay, so lets say they import food from other towns via ocean trade, as
> they must just to survive. Let's say they get another 1/3 of their food
> from imports, that is still all the land within 35 miles. So much for
> the "Rat Hills". Wheat farms, now!
>
> Please remember that I fudged the numbers in WotC's favor all the way
> thru this, and it's still crazy!

Actually, you didn't. Aside from anything else, the basic rule of
thumb for pre-industrial farming proves you wrong. The base rule is
that it takes 9 people on the land to support 10 people, including
themselves. If you triple the yield those nine people can support 30,
so intead of a population with 10% urban, you have one with 70% urban
- a huge change.

--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

kyrcant@kyrcant.net wrote:

> Please remember that I fudged the numbers in WotC's favor all the way
> thru this, and it's still crazy!
>
>
> Comments?

Yeah. Waterdeep imports it's food for the most part, and is
dependent on trade, other city-states, and other Kingdoms.
Plus there are the other Industries in waterdeep that provide
income for food.

Re,
Dirk

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
> kyrcant@kyrcant.net wrote:
> > Please remember that I fudged the numbers in WotC's favor all the way
> > thru this, and it's still crazy!
>
> No more "crazy" than the existence of Rome, which was even larger than
> Waterdeep with less sophisticated agricultural technology.

Or eve, y'know, magic . . .

> Huge cities can thrive even without local food supplies so long as they
> have a huge, reliable source of imported food. And as other posters have
> noticed, Waterdeep /does/ have a good local supply.

But they're GAME DESIGNERS not HISTORICAL ACCURISTS!

They MUST be wrong!

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

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kyrcant@kyrcant.net wrote:
> You've gone and proved my point even more.

Please remember that Usenet articles often arrive out of order (or not
at all). Quote context and say who you're talking to.

> All of my estimates favored as few farms as possible, and I realize
> they were way off, in FAVOR of large populations.

Not really. Sure, you multiplied local agriculture by a large factor,
but you skimped on imports. That's backwards for a huge city.

> The only river near WD is almost 30 miles away, according to the FR
> Atlas. That is 2 days by cart.

Waterdeep's harbor is /on/ the River Desarin, according to the Forgotten
Realms Campaign Setting (p. 174). It connects Waterdeep to all of the
northern towns and cities, including Silverymoon. There is another river
30 miles south, the River Delimbiyr. Next time, you might want to read
more carefully.

> The pop of WD is 1.3 million, not 130,000, according to the FR
> Campaign setting for dnd3.0

Once again, you didn't read very carefully: 1,347,840 is the population
of the entire Waterdeep region. The City of Splendors itself is much
smaller: "City of Waterdeep, Metropolis, 132,661" (FRCS p. 178).

> I have seen no maps which show any farms or farming communities
> anywhere near WD.

Such as Amphail Village or Golden Fields along the Long Road (FRCS
p. 174 again). Are you seeing the pattern here?

> You are right about the port needing to be outside the city.

Rupert didn't say it was necessary, just helpful. Don't put words in
other people's mouths.

> Also, WD has no water source except wells ....

And the River Desarin.

> By your last comment, we now have 13 million farmers to support WD.

Actually, going by the FRCS, there's 1.3 million people in the region
supporting a city of 132,000. That's more than enough even without the
river, the sea harbor, and the four major roads leading into the city.
If anything, Waterdeep should probably be larger.

> Let's pretend that ....

How about we pretend that you actually read the FRCS and didn't get all
of your numbers wrong by an order of magnitude?
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

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Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
> kyrcant@kyrcant.net wrote:
> > I have seen no maps which show any farms or farming communities
> > anywhere near WD.
>
> Such as Amphail Village or Golden Fields along the Long Road (FRCS
> p. 174 again). Are you seeing the pattern here?

To add to this: In the CITYSYSTEM boxed set for second edition, there's
a poster map of Waterdeep. On the poster map you can literally see a
farming community just outside of the city.

(You can't see the River Desarin on these maps, however, because it
passes to the southeast of the city along the bluff -- an area which
isn't covered by the city maps and can't be seen on the poster map.)

--
Justin Alexander Bacon
http://www.thealexandrian.net

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On 16 Sep 2005 19:57:38 -0700, kyrcant@kyrcant.net scribed into the ether:

>You've gone and proved my point even more. All of my estimates favored
>as few farms as possible, and I realize they were way off, in FAVOR of
>large populations.

I get 12.8 million acres of farmland in Waterdeep's vicinity. Lots.

>The only river near WD is almost 30 miles away, according to the FR
>Atlas.
>That is 2 days by cart.

My map shows it right next door. Granted, the scale is large, but small
enough to see a 30 mile difference. It doesn't go *through* town, but big
deal. They don't grow crops in town either.


>I have seen no maps which show any farms or farming communities
>anywhere near WD.

My map shows almost all of the land for a hundred miles in a 40-50 degree
arc to the northeast as being cleared ground, suitable for farming.

>Also, WD has no water source except wells, which are horribly
>inadaquate for a city that large. The only European cities that can
>compare to that in size are all located on rivers. In fact, even in
>the modern world, almost all large cities are on supplies of fresh
>water.

Tell that to Los Angeles.

>By your last comment, we now have 13 million farmers to support WD.
>Let's pretend that Chauntea allows these farmers to get yields like
>today's most modern farms do, about 40 times medieval averages, and
>that is still a lot of farmers.

You think it takes 1 farmer to grow an acre of land? You're nuts.

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On 16 Sep 2005 19:57:38 -0700, kyrcant@kyrcant.net carved upon a
tablet of ether:

> You've gone and proved my point even more. All of my estimates favored
> as few farms as possible, and I realize they were way off, in FAVOR of
> large populations.
>
> The only river near WD is almost 30 miles away, according to the FR
> Atlas.
> That is 2 days by cart.

Who sadi anything about bloody carts?

> The pop of WD is 1.3 million, not 130,000, according to the FR Campaign
> setting for dnd3.0

The numbers I quoted were from the new FR Waterdeep book.

> I have seen no maps which show any farms or farming communities
> anywhere near WD.

Get better maps. alternatively, try reading the legend, and don't
assume that just because something like a farm isn't shown on a small
scale map it isn't there.

Also, try reading the literature and texts - it's perfectly clear the
whole area around Waterdeep is fertile farmland.

> By your last comment, we now have 13 million farmers to support WD.
> Let's pretend that Chauntea allows these farmers to get yields like
> today's most modern farms do, about 40 times medieval averages, and
> that is still a lot of farmers.

Oh bullshit. Pre-medieval agricultural assumptions would give
6,000,000 farmers to support the summer population. More reasonably
(if the 'summer' folks were only there four months of the year)
2,800,000 farmers would do. However, even just using plant growth and
dark ages farming we can produce 13 people's food for the labour of
nine farmers, so we only need 560,000 farmers. We also only need a 46
mile radius of land, 64 if we assume only a semi-circle. We'll need a
bit more to allow for wastelands, but we'll also need less once we
account for fishing. There's plenty of space, and given FR tends
towards at least renaissance levels of technology, and seems to have
fairly advanced farming techniques (in civilised human lands, anyway)
and the land around Waterdeep is fertile, I expect it handily feeds
itself, and can afford to do so in good style (which is what we see in
the texts).

--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

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On 16 Sep 2005 19:57:38 -0700, kyrcant@kyrcant.net wrote:


>The pop of WD is 1.3 million, not 130,000, according to the FR Campaign
>setting for dnd3.0
>
>I have seen no maps which show any farms or farming communities
>anywhere near WD.

That doesn't mean they aren't there. It just means they aren't
interesting enough to make note of.