Doom3, buying vid cards, and RAMDACs!

bulletproofmonk · May 14, 2003

First of all, these are the 3 cards I'm looking at. These are pretty much the best prices in canada hands down. I suppose I could order from the U.S and take advantage of the temporary surprisingly high value of the canadian dollar, but with shipping/etc.. it'll come to about the same anyway.

XFX(PINE)GF4 Ti4200 128MB DVI+TVO(retail?) $163.99 CAN/$118.95 US
Radeon 9100 128M DDR DVI+TVO (oem) $119.00 CAN/$86.31 US
Radeon 9500 Pro 128M DDR (oem) $239.00 CAN/$173.35 US

Ok, here's the dilemma, As far as I know, the ATI cards have a 400mhz RAMDAC and Nvidia usually has a 350mhz, which I conclude results in superior 2D performance for ATI. I play a lot of games that incorporate 2D, such as Rise of Nations (buildings/some details are 2d), so I want to take this into account. But, for all I know RAMDAC means squat and I'm wrong, comments are welcome.

Second problem : None of these cards will run doom3 well, including the 9500pro, according to the new reviews out. I don't want to hope for 30fps at 1024x768 medium detail on a 9500 pro, when I know the 4200 will probably get nearly the same. And considering there will be doom3 licensed games, which will probably have firefights in them, I might as well toss the card I'm getting now around mid 2004.

Ok, now on the cards themselves :
$86.31 US
>$32.64 price gap
$118.95 US >$87.04 price gap
>$54.40 price gap
$173.35 US

So, basically, I can get 2 9100s for the price of 1 9500 pro. And the 4200 isn't that much more than the 9100, but some reviews show that the 9100 can keep up toe to toe with it. Now, I'm only 1 brain, and have read so many reviews, so I'm looking for some advice. Please take into account 2D performance. And yes, I know the 9100 is a 8500. I looked mainly at 8500/8500LE reviews to come to the conclusion that it was pretty much as good as the 4200. I'm also aware that the 4200 can run C&C generals with AA/AF on, just like the 9500 pro, although maybe 1 notch lower.

My basic system specs :
XP2000 (will OC it to more of a XP3000 soon)
512 DDR400
nforce2 chipset
I think that's all that's needed or applies here.

Comments?

Disclaimer :
The 4200 PINE, according to reviews can reach near 4600 speeds, and that's how I relate it's performance to the 9500pro. So basically consider it being a 4400. However, I am rating the 9500pro at base clockspeeds, as I have no personal knowledge of it being a good OC'er (let me know if it is, had trouble finding that out). Edited by bulletproofmonk on 05/14/03 01:56 PM.

Nights_L · May 14, 2003

I say Radeon9500Pro..
from what I know, RAMDAC wouldn't make much much different, 350 and 400
if you really want be able to play Doom3, you should plan to buy a video card like R9700/9800 or GF fx5900
otherwise..Radeon9500Pro would be ur choice

bulletproofmonk · May 14, 2003

ok so 1 vote for 9500 pro

1 correction. It is a SAPPHIRE (non-ati) 9500 pro, if that makes any difference.

Also, keep in mind, that any $ saved goes to the next vid card. So saving/cheap cards is a good thing

Unless 1 card totally rapes the other.Edited by bulletproofmonk on 05/14/03 02:17 PM.

Nights_L · May 14, 2003

You have to go on Sapphire's web site to see whether there are clocked differently..
the 2D quality ..then I'm not quite sure if it would be as good as "Built by ATI", there shouldn't be big difference.

Twitch · May 14, 2003

Yeah, of those options you listed, the 9500 PRO without a doubt. Not only does it have superior 3D performance, but it also has much better 2D image quality. I can personally vouch for that, as I just upgraded to a Radeon 9800 and I am thoroughly impressed with the difference in 2D. And, finally, the 9500 PRO already supports DX9.0, which means it will be futureproof a little longer...

The Netherlands is where you go when you're too good for heaven. :tongue:

reever2 · May 14, 2003

Radeon 9500Pro

having a faster RAMDAC doesnt mean better 2d quality

cleeve · May 14, 2003

The first thing you have to ask yourself: Do I want to use Antialiassing?
Because if your answer is yes, don't bother looking at the 9100.

If you don't need AA and are happy with 20 FPS in Doom3, then that's the card for you.

If you're NOT satisfied with 20 fps in doom3 (and let's be honest, who would be?) you are left with the Ti4200 and the Radeon 9500 PRO

The price difference: $80 Canadian.

Now, how much money you have comes into play.

I don't think you'd be dissapointed in the 4200, and I'm sure it's a great overclocker. But the 9500 PRO is an excelent overclocker... although you might have to flash the BIOS depending on the manufacturer.
OC'd, they can usually get within 10% of the 9700 PRO, give or take. The GPU overclocks like a banshee. Very sweet.

Plus, the 9500 has DirectX 9 hardware features, and does AA alot better than the 4600. So if you're forced to play Doom3 at low resolutions to get a decent framerate, wouldn't it be nice to turn AA on with a minimal hit?

I'd go for the 9500 PRO, I'm thinking. But I don't think the Ti4200 would disappoint you.
I think the 9100 would, tho.

One final question: Where can I order a 9500 PRO in Canada for $239???? I've got a 9100 right now, and it's time to move on...

- Cleeve

bulletproofmonk · May 14, 2003

Did you just buy it?? (the 9100)

I try to keep vid cards for as long possible.

The sapphire 9500pro(I'm pretty sure it's sapphire as the ATI one doesn't come oem) is at www.infonec.com, although it says "Temporary Out of Stock", which means it'll come back. Usually when they're out, they're out and either remove the item from the site or say "sold out".

Also, it wasn't a magic special, that didn't exist, it was actually in-stock a day or two ago, @%#&*)#* *@#$ *#@$&. Competitors list the same card at $260+ CAN, so I know, great deal.
Edited by bulletproofmonk on 05/14/03 02:40 PM.

bulletproofmonk · May 14, 2003

as for $ concerns..

I have a hard time choosing between the 3 because, the $80 CAN to jump to the 9500pro, could later be tacked on to my next card.

What if the 9500pro simply can't handle doom3, I feel it's a gamble.

cleeve · May 14, 2003

Nope, I had my "9100" for way over a year now.

It's actually a retail 8500 I flashed with the 9100 BIOS a couple month ago... I'm the same way, like to keep my video cards at least a year.

Don't get me wrong, the 8500/9100 is a great card. Best card I've ever had so far.
But AA is a joke, and the Doom3 alpha runs like crap on it. It's been a trooper, but it's time to move on.

Yes, that is a good deal... I think 'll be considering it for myself when they come back in stock...

cleeve · May 14, 2003

I saw a benchmark once, can't remember the site... but as I recall the Ti4600 was getting mid to high 30's framerates, the 9500 PRO was getting mid to high 40's framerates.

Doesn't sound like a big difference, but at those low framerates I'm sure it sould seem like alot...

RCPilot · May 14, 2003

You hit the nail on the head. I'd go with the TI4200 & bank the $80 savings. When Doom 3 actually comes out, then decide on the cards that are available at that time & you'll have some extra cash to throw at it then.

I believe no card that's out right now will be the best or even a good solution for Doom 3. That's my take on it anyway. I holding pat until then so I'm not telling you something I'm not doing myself.

About a month ago I put together a machine with a TI4200 it was pretty sweet really. Used XP2200, ASUS A7V8X MOBO, 512 Samsung 2700 CS 2.5. The 3Dmarks were in the high 10,000 range with 2001SE. So it's not a shabby set up by any means.

If it ain't broke, take it apart & see why not!

GeneticWeapon · May 15, 2003

DOOM3 WILL PLAY FINE ON MODERATELY FAST VIDEO CARDS. DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT ID SOFTWARE WOULD MAKE A FUCKKING VIDEO GAME THAT REQUIRE A FUCKKING 9800/5900 TO PLAY?....NO. THE DEMO/BENCHMARK THAT WAS JUST USED BY TOMS/[H] WAS A [-peep-] "MAX" DETAIL BENCHMARK...FOR HEAVENS SAKE. I THINK THAT JOHN CARMACK'S PROGRAMMING IS GOOD ENOUGH TO MAKE DOOM3 PLAY ON MOST AVAILABLE VIDEO CARDS.....AND YES I KNOW I'M TYPING IN CAPS.

3DMark 2001SE <A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=6476493" target="_new">http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=6476493</A>
3DMark2003 <A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=749781" target="_new">http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=749781</A>

bulletproofmonk · May 15, 2003

Watching the new doom3 vid, I really want to play the game the way the vid looks.

Considering the anandtech.com benchmark used medium quality and it raped all the cards, I don't feel confident.

confoundicator · May 15, 2003

I have a Geforce4 Ti4200 right now and I'm considering getting a 9500Pro (or probably better in a couple of months). Why? DX9. Why else? Half-Life II comes out September 30th. (man I just can't wait - just thinking about gets me sofa king psyched........*explosion*)

-What if the Hokey-Pokey really is what it's all about?

GeneticWeapon · May 15, 2003

If you do buy one, I can show you step by step how to hack the bios...unless you already know how...

3DMark 2001SE <A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=6479858" target="_new">http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=6479858</A>
3DMark2003 <A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=749781" target="_new">http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=749781</A>

phial · May 15, 2003

400mhz ramdac only allows for higher max refresh rate/resolution

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<A HREF="http://www.xgr.com" target="_new">XGR-Game Reviews</A>

"You change the channel, and you change our minds..." - System of a Down

RCPilot · May 15, 2003

I didn't say that or mean it. What I'm saying the best card to play Doom 3 on hasen't been made yet. If you think it has, be my guest & toss your $$$ at it. I'm holding pat for now. I know that a better card is out there to take advantage of the new engine.

If it ain't broke, take it apart & see why not!

phial · May 15, 2003

yeah for sho

im sticking with my 8500 for now. i mean heck its dam near as fast as a TI4200

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<A HREF="http://www.xgr.com" target="_new">XGR-Game Reviews</A>

"You change the channel, and you change our minds..." - System of a Down

RCPilot · May 15, 2003

Hey once they get past Alpha then & only then will the real work begin on a card. Why should you do anything to a card at Alpha stage on a game? I've been an auto designer for to long. Alpha means squat. Beta is where you get into the heart of things.

Doom 3 is causing quit a stir even this early in graphic cards. I'll bet, time it's over it's as much hype as the FX5800 & the AMD 3200. Doom 3 has sold a lot of cards already. NO? LOL

If it ain't broke, take it apart & see why not!

Beetle · May 15, 2003

ok heres the rundown of my opinions

1) pine makes great stuff. i just bought their XFX motherboard for my athlon and i dont think ill use anything but from now on. top notch, good people, great service.

2)I love radeons as much as the next guy but the 9100 is only = to a 8500LE, which is slower than an 8500. my geforce 4 ti4200 64mb DDR runs circles around my sapphire 9100 128mb DDR. overclocking it didnt seem to do crap performance wise :\

3) sapphire does make some ok cards, except for mine aparently

and they ARE cheap. i would personally try to get a real ATI if i could afford it but if not the sapphire is a fair enough trade off.

TheGreatGrapeApe · May 15, 2003

Ok, sorry for coming in to the discussion late, but I've been a little busy.

My recommendation. NONE of the ABOVE. If you are planning to make this card disposeable within 1 year's time when D3 comes out then none of the above choices makes ANY sense. The R9500P would be your best choice for a 'keeper' card. But if you plan on swapping out, then here's my suggestion;

Get an R8500LE or R9100 both with 64mb. I have seen them all over town/e-tailers for $99 cdn. Otherwise go with the 9100-128mb you have there (I've seen it for $114.99). ere isn't a game out there that will kill that card,(unless you turn AA/AF) on, and if it's a stopgap card then, don't expect much, save as much as possible and get a better card later. With a diff. of $60+-$140, then you will be able to gt a better class of card later. Heck the diff. between the 9100 and 9500 would allow you to get an addition R9500 probbly by that time. Yeah, all of this is speculation, and if you are basing your purchase on the D3 marks, remember that it is an early benchmark, and should play (without all eye candy) well on most R9xxx cards and most GF4+ cards.
Anywhoo I'd say if it's a disposable card, treat it as such, your resale between the GF4 and R9100 is likely the same +/- a few bucks.

Just my two frames worth.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! RED GREEN :tongue: GA to SK

phial · May 15, 2003

ApeMan makes the most sense. you should listen to him

and about the 8500le being only a little slower than a TI4200:

my computer :
1700+
KT333 aopen
384ddr333 cas2
8500LE @285/285

my friends:
1600+
KT333 msi
512DR333, dunno timings
TI4200@ stock

and i swear in UT2003, he never gets over 130fps or below 40, and mine is damn near identicle. maybe less top end on mine, but minimum FPS is wat really counts.

other people may have different results with these 2 cards

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<A HREF="http://www.xgr.com" target="_new">XGR-Game Reviews</A>

"You change the channel, and you change our minds..." - System of a DownEdited by phial on 05/15/03 03:06 AM.

dhlucke · May 15, 2003

If you want to play Doom ]|[ at high quality settings with good framerates you're going to PROBABLY have to buy a new card no matter what you choose today.

Don't spend too much if playing Doom ]|[ is your goal. Yes people will be able to play the game at medium settings and at 800x600 with a GF4, but that's not what we're all waiting for.

Everyone should be like the Dutch. They're perfect.

<A HREF="http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1086025,00.asp" target="_new">Is Nvidia cheating?</A>

bulletproofmonk · May 15, 2003

Excellent advice, everyone.

I think I'll stick with something near low end then.

Doom3, buying vid cards, and RAMDACs!

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