Nvidia was cheating, it appears

phial · May 15, 2003

<A HREF="http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1086025,00.asp" target="_new"> Extremetech article </A>

they suspect that Nvidia changed the new drivers so that it was faster in 3dmark03.

quicky: when you play a game the camera angle can change at any time. with a benchmark program (3dmark) the camera is on a rail, cant change it. so Nvidia changed the way the GFFX clips off parts of the scene that isnt viewable, allowing for extra speed. they discovered this because whenever Extremetech used the developers version of 3dmark03 and went free-roaming camera mode, there were big visual errors in parts of the scene that wouldnt normally be seen. like, incomplete sky textures etc...

Nvidia says its a bug, but these guys say it looks more like the drivers were tweaked so that they rendered the viewable part of the scenes in 3dmark faster at the expense of having errors elsewhere because theres no way WE the consumer could ever find out

it could be a bug, who knows. but i tend to believe Extremetech.

and please read the whole article, i probalby and more than likely didnt explain it fully because they use a lot of technical jargon that i dont understand

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phial · May 15, 2003

<A HREF="http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?s=097138690746be4ddbc8472aa156ccd7&threadid=33685665" target="_new"> Rage3d thread </A>

heh, check out wat the ATI fans are saying. its quite interesting, as alot of them understand it alot more thna i do (tho i have a very good idea wats going on)

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<A HREF="http://www.xgr.com" target="_new">XGR-Game Reviews</A>

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cdpage · May 15, 2003

HA!

wouldn't Surprise me in the slightest!

i hope it is true! why... it will force them to just make it RIGHT!

question is...(asuming that extremetech is correct) when they do fix up the drive... who then will have the throne?

YAY! i love this stuff!

dah, has any body seen my paints? :redface:

phial · May 15, 2003

oh yeah me too, this is great. not because its Nvidia (well yeah i admit hehe) but because a company was PROBABLY caught red handed trying to RIP US OFF

GFFX5200.. *grumble*. another reason...

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<A HREF="http://www.xgr.com" target="_new">XGR-Game Reviews</A>

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GeneticWeapon · May 15, 2003

This is a great thread, and needs to be discussed. The conclusion of many discussions is, that Nvidia did in fact cheat. One of the questions that should be asked is..does it matter to you?...do you even care?...I think that it matters alot, a company that many folks trust should not be lieing about the performance of their product. Hardware reviewers all over are being made to look bad, because the information that they delivered to their viewers about Nvidia's new products is wrong, and not truethful. If I did a review on one of Nvidia's cards, liked it, and told my viewers to buy it, then found out that the card had cheated in tests, I would be pissed. I hope people dont just shrug this discovery off.

120% ATi Fanboy!
3DMark 2001SE
<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=6479858" target="_new">http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=6479858</A>

phial · May 15, 2003

pisses me off , because 100million people saw the GFFX5900ultra's 3dmark, but wont ever see this article

back to work iu go

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<A HREF="http://www.xgr.com" target="_new">XGR-Game Reviews</A>

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coolsquirtle · May 15, 2003

All i can say is M E H meh........ as a logical Nvidia fanboy (call me nvidiot and DIE!!!) i think well..... does it matter??? so what if they cheated who said u have to be a good boy all the time ^^ and also as long as it shows great results in games people play, it doesn't matter who cheated what matters is the results

dhlucke · May 15, 2003

It's like a soap opera. I wonder how many times Nvidia needs to get caught "cheating" before they'll stop. Keep in mind that the average consumer has no clue about this so to Nvidia they probably don't have much to fear.

Everyone should be like the Dutch. They're perfect.

dhlucke · May 15, 2003

I'd like to see Tom's address these cheating issues that have been brought up since the introduction of the FX. Good or bad, let them delve deeper into it.

Everyone should be like the Dutch. They're perfect.

phial · May 15, 2003

see man. ok, be reasonable. if ATI was caught cheating, Nvidia fans would be all over it. were talking about THINGS THAT YOU BUY WITH YOUR OWN MONEY man.. fuk sakes

and dhukle. they probalby have nothing to fear right now

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<A HREF="http://www.xgr.com" target="_new">XGR-Game Reviews</A>

"You change the channel, and you change our minds..." - System of a Down

dhlucke · May 15, 2003

You can't be serious? The results are scewed. Would you want a doctor to operate on you if he cheated on his exams?

Everyone should be like the Dutch. They're perfect.

<A HREF="http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1086025,00.asp" target="_new">Is Nvidia cheating?</A>

phial · May 15, 2003

look at it this way:

there is no Nvidia

there is no ATI

2 companies compete and make a product that does the same thing. company A shows you a chart showing the productiveness of his product. company B shows you a chart that isnt based on facts, is a lie to get you to buy his product even tho its not as good as company A

and then you find out that company B lied to you

and you say you would still buy from company B. i dont believ you in the slightest.

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<A HREF="http://www.xgr.com" target="_new">XGR-Game Reviews</A>

"You change the channel, and you change our minds..." - System of a Down

rain_king_uk · May 15, 2003

Well NVIDIA always were pissed about 3DMark2003 - I guess rather than improving their product this was the easier option.

TheGreatGrapeApe · May 15, 2003

It doesn't matter if they cheated? Why not? The fact that they cheated in something that they themselves said was inconsequential means to me they would cheat anywhere. If they get better 'performance' figures in Doom ]|[ because they turn down the quality despite the tabs saying 'quality' etc. would you still be saying 'who cares'. It matters alot because these tests are what help decide where to plonk your coin. Perhaps you buying a cheap card don't care, and perhaps you have blind loyalty, however to most poeple they want to be sure their investment pays off, especially if it's the only card they can afford ot buy over the next 1-2+ years.
BTW, I have a new car for you, and it's never been driven.
What I mean is it's new to you (I jus had it repainted after a major accident), and it's never been driven by ME (but it had 25,000miles on it before I cracked open and rolled back the odometer).
Nvidia, the Used Car Salesmen of the Graphic card world.

Pretty cheesy no matter how you slice it.

This sucks, and it WILL make benchmarks obsolete, even GAME-based ones. Which was probably Nvidia's goal all along, leave it to the PR boys to blow 'em, I mean blow their horns. Nvidiots, follow blindly, oh no it doesn't matter, no it's just 3dmk and we pulled out of THAT, it's games tha matter, no cheating. Sure, we shall see if they also cheated in UT2K3 as well.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! RED GREEN :tongue: GA to SK

GeneticWeapon · May 15, 2003

The NV News forums are where everyone is talking about this right now...a gang of people from rage3d are there, as well as B3D...the funny thing is, is that it's an Nvidia fansite forum, so ATi lovers are all over there rubbing shitt in....P.S., if you go there, my name is micron and I have a big ass ATi avatar over my name..be sure to say hi..<A HREF="http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11818&perpage=25&pagenumber=1" target="_new">http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11818&perpage=25&pagenumber=1</A>

120% ATi Fanboy!
3DMark 2001SE
<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=6481580" target="_new">http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=6481580</A>

phial · May 15, 2003

i will come to back you up!!~!

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<A HREF="http://www.xgr.com" target="_new">XGR-Game Reviews</A>

"You change the channel, and you change our minds..." - System of a Down

TheGreatGrapeApe · May 15, 2003

GeneticWeapon and Phial; the Starsky and Hutch of the Graphics card world. :tongue:

I wanna be huggy-bear! Love 'dem clothes!

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! RED GREEN :tongue: GA to SK

phial · May 15, 2003

lol, you can be my side kick. um, and ill take 2 sugars in that coffee, quickly now

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<A HREF="http://www.xgr.com" target="_new">XGR-Game Reviews</A>

"You change the channel, and you change our minds..." - System of a Down

GeneticWeapon · May 15, 2003

Lol...Phial, I said whats up to you over there!

120% ATi Fanboy!
3DMark 2001SE
<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=6481580" target="_new">http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=6481580</A>

davepermen · May 15, 2003

lets build a timeline with all the cheats nvidia did for the fx, a complete list

that'll be FUNNY

"take a look around" - limp bizkit

www.google.com

shadus · May 15, 2003

I can't say I really care personally-- I'm more interested in the performance in the games, it's a synthetic benchmark and its a theoretical benchmark so... shrug. I do however think that any site that did a review of the 5900U should probally post up a 'naughty naughty nvidia article' now just to discourage that kind of behavior.

Shadus

shadus · May 15, 2003

> Would you want a doctor to operate on you if he
> cheated on his exams?

Do you want the doctor who graduated last in his class to operate on you? Where was your doctor relative to his class? Don't know do ya?

Diplomas don't say anything about skill, just that you know enough to pass an exam.

Shadus

phial · May 15, 2003

dont dance around teh obvious issue here man lol

would you or would you not buy from a company that you found out lied to you about how their product performs?

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<A HREF="http://www.xgr.com" target="_new">XGR-Game Reviews</A>

"You change the channel, and you change our minds..." - System of a Down

Fallen · May 15, 2003

For whatever it's worth, I don't think that Nvidia cheated, they were just too aggressive with their frustum culling code. It could probably be "fixed" in a newer driver version, but in a normal playing environment, it would never be noticed. Just my two cents.

Willamette_sucks · May 15, 2003

Yay!
This is good news to me, but dosnt surprise me at all.
Maybe I wont have to trade my 9800 pro for a 5900U afterall.
Does Doom3 run in open gl? I just read something that said it did. I havnt really read much on Doom3, but i assumed it ran in D3D cause everything does nowadays.
Neways, ATIs Open GL drivers arent that great right now.
So I think they could get alot more performance out of Doom3, plus its not even the final version.

Long live ATI.

Nvidia was cheating, it appears

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