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Get a look at the IDIOTS

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May 15, 2003 2:33:35 PM

quotes from the NVforum. completely clueless idiots that even debate about stuff using facts they make up off the top of their heads..
oh yeha, and they ALL have a full and thorough knowledge of how video cards work. even the 9 year olds. they sure as hell talk like they do !

--------------------

"That blue circle in the ATi shot looks a lot more jaggy.

Also, the blob where the circle joins up is bigger, probably due to ATi's bigger pixels due to their 0.15 micron core not " sifting" the pixels as finely."

"I dont have enough time to read that article right now, but as Ive said before:

IF I CANT *SEE* THE PROBLEM, I DONT GIVE A DAMN IF THEY ARE CHEATING OR NOT.

Speed is speed. Unless my picture looks like crap, I'll take speed over fairness any day. "

--------------------

"Alot of you ppl simply haven't got a clue about how things work have you?

You really think that Pixar's rendering farm renders stuff you cant see? No.
You think even ATI's hardware renders polygons you cant see? No.

The whole concept of a software rendering engine, is arranging the data, so that most of it can be thrown away, and not even be given to the graphics card.

You think Morrowind cheats, because it culls the polygons behind the camera?

If you forced hardware to render _everything_ we'd still be running in 640x480 because of the power needed would be silly. It simply isn't possible.

Now. Look at it from this point of view. Imagine in 3dmark03, you couldn't move off the rails. Would you rather tell nv/ati/whoever, that you want them to render everything properly, including the stuff you cant SEE?! Or would you rather let them do some cunning tricks, to try and speed stuff up for you.

And then.. oops, you can move in 3dmark03. "Oh we didn't know about that, our opts will probably break then".

The fact is, they were still rendering the onrails part the same as any other hardware. They used knowledge of the situation to improve performance.

This just adds to the point that synthetic benchmarks are truly crap at guaging performance. If you think ATI or any other board maker, doesn't do aggressive optimizations, that to their knowledge wont be visible under known circumstances you are wrong.

The real game benchmarks still stand IMO.

I dont agree with their principle of deliberatly adding in data specifically for this benchmark. _IF_ that is the case. But to be frank, neither you, nor any review sites really actually know whats happening in the driver. Just because it looks like "cheating", doesn't mean it is.

I'm not trying to be a fanboy about this, I expect nv to sort this mess out for good. But I just laugh at how everyone just jumps to the same conclusion just for the hell of it. Hell, most of you dont know a single thing about 3d graphics optimizations.

FLAME ON!"

--------------------

"This is pretty laughable

...the reaction by all these ATI fanboys polluting this thread, i mean.

This is a non-issue. I could care less about 3DMark. Nvidia could have turned down the IQ, used bilinear, removed textures, make everything run in wireframe or whatever else to get a higher score in 3DMark and i wouldn't give a crap. Why? Because - as most ATI fanboys seem to have forgotten in their haze of retardation - 3DMark isn't a game. You don't play it, no game uses it's engine(s), nothing.

So long as there isn't any evidence of cheating in actual games durring normal gameplay situations (see: QUACK) this is just another huge over exaggeration but ATI fanboys cowering fear because of a VIDEOCARD. "

--------------------

" think ExtremeTEch is completly misleading people..
THose Horrible screenshots are not noticeable to the
GAmers ,only to the developers (not Nvidia ) that have
access to 3dmark2003 from others camera points of view..

Imo.. if the GAmer cant notice any decrease in IQ
then i see *no problem* for more performance.
without noticeable decrease in IQ.

i think Extremetech and the Guys behind this...
we know who they are...
ATi is simply Crying like ladies! because the Nv35 kicked the ass,
of R350.. in games!!! where it matters.. "




=======

me again:

they all claim that this wont affect them , becaose 3dmark isnt a game. well, after they buy their GFFX based on a 3dmark score thinking its faster and its really not in their favorite games, tey will realize that it does affect them...

im trying not to be a fanboy here, but i cant help it. Nvidia fanboys are completely ignorant about their loyalty, so at least i know my loyalty is based on facts and performance/quality not lies and lack of knowledge

-------

<A HREF="http://www.xgr.com" target="_new">XGR-Game Reviews</A>

"You change the channel, and you change our minds..." - System of a Down<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by phial on 05/15/03 10:45 AM.</EM></FONT></P>

More about : idiots

May 15, 2003 4:41:19 PM

"I'm not trying to be a fanboy about this"

It sure sounds like you are being a fanboy! I'm an ATI fanboy and I'm not afraid to admit it! Why don't you admit you're an nv fanboy?
May 15, 2003 4:54:24 PM

> they all claim that this wont affect them, becaose 3dmark isnt a
> game. well, after they buy their GFFX based on a 3dmark score
> thinking its faster and its really not in their favorite games, tey
> will realize that it does affect them...

It won't affect them. So long as they are looking at the ohter provided benchmarks... how did it do in ut2003, q3a, ss, etc? If you base your whole purchase off of 3dmark it would affect you sure... but how many people are THAT damn stupid... that's right up there with going by the specs printed on the box... Shrug.

Shadus
Related resources
May 15, 2003 7:33:00 PM

Quote:
how did it do in ut2003, q3a, ss, etc? If you base your whole purchase off of 3dmark it would affect you sure... but how many people are THAT damn stupid... that's right up there with going by the specs printed on the box

Oh, come on man! If cheating in 3DMark03 was so ineffective, then why do it? There has been no single benchmark score that is more influential in the gaming community than a Futuremark score. Period. Anyone who tries to deny that is a either a freakin moron or an unabashed drooling fanboy. Only Quake 3 comes close to Futuremark in popularity as a quick-and-dirty indicator of graphics muscle, and that benchmark has died--you never see it any more. But you still see 3dMark2001SE, and 3DMark03 is the new standard.

What's the first benchmark number people give when describing how fast their system is? Futuremark. I can tell you both my 3DMark scores, and I'm not a serious benchmarker at all. Now, nVidia shows their hypocrisy by first dismissing 3DMark03 as an inadequate benchmarking tool, and then cheating on it to get a better score. It's pathetic, and anyone who tries to minimize how pathetic it is is equally pathetic.

End of story.


<font color=green>The Netherlands is where you go when you're too good for heaven.</font color=green> :tongue:
May 15, 2003 8:23:24 PM

I didn't say it was ineffective or that it wasn't an influential benchmark (Well, 03 may not be that influential in the end... but thats another arguement.) I said anyone that based a purchase solely off a benchmark and not actual game performance was a damn moron. I stand by that.

In the end it's no more pathetic than atis cheating... cheating is cheating is cheating is cheating... they all do it, they all get caught, and they all rescind just long enough after the fact to get a nice little boost in sales with the early adopters and stick the results on a box/graph/chart/whatever.

Honestly, again, like I said-- who cares. It's all for marketing. I pay more attention to what people are saying who own the card than I do what *any* benchmark says.

A good example analogy is, go look at the boxes at the store, they all show their card out performing all the other equivilent cards on the market... they damn well all can't be right or measuring the same thing, so is that any better? No. So fuckk it.

Anyone with reasonable intelligence is going to realize that the only thing that matters is the performance (fps, image quality, etc) in the games you play or games similar to what you play and they will buy accordingly...

In the end the only people who notice this kinda sh!t is the hardcore segment of the population... when my sister's husband bought her a video card for her birthday he *read the specs on the boxes at the store and got the one that appeared most impressive.* It does everything she wants it to do. She's happy. He's happy. I wouldn't have been happy.

We read, we analyze, we ponder, we benchmark. Everyone else takes recommendations from a few friends, plays eanie meanie mineie moe, or just selects on the spot.

The reality is-- the specs matter to perhaps 10% of the computer buyers... if that. What does matter and I quote, "Is this pc going to be faster than my old one? I paid 3000$ for it and this one only costs 700...", "Will I be able to play [game of choice] on it?"... I have yet to have *ANYONE* who was buying a computer from me (sold a few hundred-- from bleeding edge to ~500$) ask, "Hey by chance do you happen to know what kind of score a machine like this gets in 3dmark?", the usual question if they are a hardcore gamer is, "Will I get all the eyecandy in [game of choice] with [vidcard or cpu speed] or should I go futher?" *IF THAT*.

If this was ati all the nvidia freaks would be throwing a fit, it's nivida so all the ati freaks are throwing a fit. Does it really make a splat of sh!ts difference to anyone in the long run, especially as publicized as it has been? No. It is free publicity, it get's nvidia's name out there, and they'll fix the 'bug' (regardless of if it was intentional or accidental) and we'll all forget about it shortly until another company cheats and gets caught.

All that matters to a gamer is game performance.

Again I say, anyone who buys a piece of hardware based solely on a benchmark is a damn moron... and that holds especially true of the enthusist market because we *know* better.... they all cheat anytime it's convienient.


Shadus
May 15, 2003 11:44:23 PM

Quote:
Again I say, anyone who buys a piece of hardware based solely on a benchmark is a damn moron...

I agree... too each his own right? Buy what you think is the best( after research of course.)


@Twitch
Quote:
If cheating in 3DMark03 was so ineffective, then why do it?

also I agree with that.

What the Phuk is the point... even if it is "only a benchmark"



@Fallout

Quote:


It sure sounds like you are being a fanboy! I'm an ATI fanboy and I'm not afraid to admit it! Why don't you admit you're an nv fanboy?

He was not saying he is a NV fanboi. He was just stating the obvious.

Me.. personally... am not committed to either. I have onlya measley radeon 7500..(soon to have the 9600p though :wink: )

I prefer radeon right now becuz of superb product right now... 6-12 months down the road I could possibly prefer NV.

If they get theyre act together.


-=[ AHH PHUK IT. ]=-
May 15, 2003 11:55:57 PM

Well, shoot man. Using your criteria, since a few FPS don't matter all that much, everyone should buy ATI all the time, since the image quality is better and the cards are smaller, quieter, and run cooler.

Sorry, man, but the argument is lame. Nvidia tries to intentionally mislead with its tweaked drivers, and all you say is "who cares?" I care, and a lot of people who know what's going on care. You should care just out of principle, if for no other reason. If you don't mind that nVidia (or any other company, for that matter) treats consumers like morons, then I guess you are one of those masochistic types who enjoys getting it in the rump with no lubrication. If you think a company lying to the public is somehow an inevitable or acceptable part of the game, then you are sadly jaded, and are contributing to a business climate that is worsening every year, while ethics and values are spiraling down the fiscal commode. You are helping to perpetuate the process by adopting the cynical view that things can be no better, no more fair, and no more honest than they are now. In short, YOU are part of the problem.

You may be totally correct that it makes no difference, in the final analysis. Still, it is objectionable, and the very fact that you would try to minimalize it as somehow trivial shows you are far too eager to shrug off the fact that a very large corporation is engaging in blatantly dishonest activities. This dishonesty requires forethought--it isn't just some fluke. I would wager that the NV35 would have scored very well with no cheats at all, so why bother? It is disturbing, because nVidia has shown a very dark side ever sense they encountered some real competition. When they were the undisputed heavy-weight champs, everything was cool. But now that they have spent the last year being thoroughly outhustled and outproduced by ATI, they have shown they will stoop to very low levels in order to regain the market-share they have lost.

We want better products, not smoke-and-mirrors.

And it simply doesn't matter if ATI has done similar things in the past. That is totally immaterial. If it was ATI cheating, most of us would be just as vocal in objecting to it.



<font color=green>The Netherlands is where you go when you're too good for heaven.</font color=green> :tongue:
May 16, 2003 3:10:57 PM

Uuh, sexy double post.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Ghostdog on 05/16/03 06:23 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
May 16, 2003 3:11:32 PM

This one is my favorite...
Quote:
You don't play it, no game uses it's engine(s), nothing.

Obviously these are people who are convinced they now about stuff, and maybe they do to a certain degree, but lack info on a lot of stuff. Games like Deus Ex 2 (and Half-Life 2 if I remember correctly) will use the Havok physics engine, the same one used in 3D Mark03.

Why do you even visit places like this Phial?

<font color=red>I´m starting to feel like a real computer consultant.</font color=red>
May 16, 2003 9:37:06 PM

Hmm, I'll say this, those people were some idiots.

I love how the larger micron (.15) makes larger pixels... hilarious. I had to clean pepsi off my monitor after reading that one.

However, I don't know if I would be in the nVidia fanboy group or not. I won't buy ATi for myself, since I don't like them for what I do, and they aren't worth the hassle that I've gone through with them, however, I have reccomended them in a few situations where I think they excell (people who want to do video editing stuff)... Does this make me a fanboy?

Athlon XP 1600+, MSI K7T PRO2 RU (POS), 2x256 MB CRUCIAL PC2100 CL2.5 memory, Asus V6800 DDR Delux (GF 256) video card, 6.4GB+27GB WD HD, 40GB IBM HD (all 7200RPM). My computer is an acronym
May 16, 2003 9:40:39 PM

That's why I don't trust synthetic benchmarks, everyone cheats on them. At some time or another, every manufacturer has cheated on one or more, so why bother? Real world results are more useful.

Athlon XP 1600+, MSI K7T PRO2 RU (POS), 2x256 MB CRUCIAL PC2100 CL2.5 memory, Asus V6800 DDR Delux (GF 256) video card, 6.4GB+27GB WD HD, 40GB IBM HD (all 7200RPM). My computer is an acronym
May 16, 2003 11:06:42 PM

Good to see THG not even posting any news stories or even a link to the ET story on the cheating issue, wow they sure are not biased towards nvidia......
a b U Graphics card
May 17, 2003 12:43:02 AM

Wait, jim, you mean the 0.13 doesn't make smaller pixels?

DAMN, and I wasted all this money on the 9600P just because I wanted to take advantage of a smaller Grill!

As for being a Fanboi, nah, but you're close, you might be able to attend their meetings by creaming 'Ati Sucks' at the door. Most of us in here are not Fanboys, except maybe GeneticWeapon, man he's even got it in his Sig.; but there are somethings we like about certain makers. Heck anyone who likes the most powerful gaming cards in the past 9 mths would have been pro-Ati, and they may have sinced switched to Pro-Nvidia, the whole thing is to have rational reasons for your support. And that's why I like NeoMagic. Hey, gotta stick with what you know. :eek: 



- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red> :tongue: GA to SK
May 17, 2003 1:06:05 AM

you go twitch, i agree. This line of posts has been very enertaining, its nice to see big thougout long ideas of the people here. I was getting tired of one liners. To answer your question, (but i'm sure you already knew this) its all about marketing. The general population is flat out stupid. I'm sorry to admit it, but we are. Just about everyone is affected by marketing. (got milk?) even though the calcium levels in milk are so minimual its funny. (got beef?) ya, lets kill more rain forests for rawhide (no, i'm not a vegitarian, but their adds are amusing). don't get me started on cosmetics, when did the overall population start thinking that they NEEDED to look PERFECT to get anywhere in life? probably the time advertising started to tell us that. Its even worse in computers, the average user is so clueless it hurts. Sure the average 13 yearold can program a computer, but *their* parents are the decision makers and buying the computer. They see amd 3200+ and (wrongly) assume its faster than the latest p4, so are willing to pay more for it when the salesman tells them. They see 128megs of ram on a 420 card and go bonkers, because it must be better than a ti4200 with only 64. ....MARKETING. its all about brainwashing you, for the ones smarter than that, its all about numbers....bigger must be better, all companies spend millions researching numbers, instead of making a better product, they find ways to make their *worse* product look better than the next guys. So a better quality/cheaper product dies out because everyone goes for the better/bigger/brighter packaging of the other companies.

Why do you think michael jordan makes 40mil a year from commercials and corporate sponsership? because if he wears those shoes and he is *that* good, if i pay 200 for those shoes i *must* be able to do that good. If they are willing to give him that much money, they must make a TON more than that selling products. I always wondering why companies spend so much on advertising when all that money could be spent doing something better, considering everyone knows about coke. But because we are so stupid, if they stopped advertising, we *would* switch to the next *latest* thing....advertising tells us our social identity, so if we want to be part of some certain group to fit in, we will do anything. Buy designer close, purchase new suv's every other year, etc.

I mean, come on, 49 1/2 % of the USA's population voted for BUSH!. His dad was a moron, he's a moron, and this country is going to hell, but...through all the propaganda, I'm pretty sure its a good thing, right? yes yes, war is good, we need to rid the world of bad people. who cares that our own country is going to all $hit....

damn, got me started...well i'm going to shut up. anyway, i wish people we be more informed. If the average person became smarter, we wouldn't have to setting for mx cards would we? hell no because they wouldn't be able to market them for over 100 bucks if people were smart enough to know that they suck. Just like windows ME...oh god, don't go there, 98se was better and anyone who disagree's is crazy. but Tons of people bought ME because it was the latest and greatest...

What's the name of that animal that runs through the town in Europe somewhere and all jump off the cliff into the ocean? I don't remember, but damn if we arn't all like that.

(of course not us, we are smarter than that huh?)

"sixth sick sheik's sixth sheep's sick"
*grabs a stick and places it into the flames; mmmm, smores*
%Think before you act would be a good motto%
May 17, 2003 1:31:36 AM

"Also, the blob where the circle joins up is bigger, probably due to ATi's bigger pixels due to their 0.15 micron core not " sifting" the pixels as finely."

I think this is the best quote I have ever heard in the history of the Earth! Whoever said it should be put out of his misery now before he hurts himself or something else. Hahahaha!
May 17, 2003 4:25:17 AM

Good response. Our politics differ, but I don't feel like going into that, and besides, that would be a debate for the "Others" forum. Regarding marketing, however, you're right on. All you have to do is look at the Ti4800 or any of nVidia's AGP 8X products...It's 8X AGP so it's TWICE as fast!

Don't believe it? I already told you guys the story of the CompUSA salesguy who tried to sell me a Ti4200-128 X8 card when I wanted to see the Radeon 9700 they were out-of-stock on..."It's 8X AGP...it's got TWICE the throughput..."

Marketing. It's what makes the world go 'round. And almost every company is guilty of it to some extent, but people who have any conscience at all will object when they see blatant false advertising or manipulation happening in front of their eyes...





<font color=green>The Netherlands is where you go when you're too good for heaven.</font color=green> :tongue:
May 17, 2003 4:26:31 AM

The person who said that could NOT have been serious...


<font color=green>The Netherlands is where you go when you're too good for heaven.</font color=green> :tongue:
May 17, 2003 5:53:46 AM

there was a screen shot comparing nv's and ati's AA quality. in one shot, there were NO jaggies to be seen (both cards were at max AA) and on the Nvidia there wre horrible jaggies. it was either a driver problem, or NV just doesnt do good AA compared to ATI. the areas compared in the SS were circled and he was talking about that. not only did he get the pictures backwards, he was a complete dumb ass


man, at that NV forum, the people there are just beyond words. you can say to them "look man, the square block goes thru the square hole, and the rectangle block goes thru the rectangle hole" and they will actually argue and try to prove you wrong

anyways this thread was more of a pissed of, fanboy thread. idiots arnet limited to nvidia fans, im sure theres just as many ATI fans who are idiots...

why.. take Genetic Weapon for example.

-------

<A HREF="http://www.xgr.com" target="_new">XGR-Game Reviews</A>

"You change the channel, and you change our minds..." - System of a Down<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by phial on 05/17/03 02:03 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
May 17, 2003 4:40:32 PM

LOL nice one twitch
"it's agp8x it's twice as fast"
LOL heard it quite some times in real life as well :D 
May 17, 2003 5:01:02 PM

Quote:
"Also, the blob where the circle joins up is bigger, probably due to ATi's bigger pixels due to their 0.15 micron core not " sifting" the pixels as finely."

I think this is the best quote I have ever heard in the history of the Earth! Whoever said it should be put out of his misery now before he hurts himself or something else. Hahahaha!

haha you should make that your sig.

-=[ AHH [-peep-] IT. ]=-
November 18, 2004 3:10:41 PM

I spotted that too... :lol:  ...

I like the way one guy points out that 3dmark03 matters because it uses Havok physics (Does it? No idea, don't really care), but spectacularly fails to realise that the GPU will have no bearing on that stuff anyway....

---
"Sex without love is an empty experience...
But as empty experiences go, it's one of the best" - Woody Allen
November 18, 2004 4:24:04 PM

What's up with you gravedigging all the sudden? Current threads aren't good enough for ya?

Maxtor disgraces the six letters that make Matrox.
November 18, 2004 5:34:04 PM

I do take note of FutureMark scores, but benchmarks just don't mean that much in the end. For example, look at the 6800U and X800XT- one's faster in Doom, and the other is faster in HL2 (at highest settings). However, both of them are obnoxiously powerful in all games. NV's faster in Game X, and next week ATi is faster in game Y. The aforementioned cards are basically equal in performance. There is no benchmark that demonstrates that one of the cards is fundamentally better. In light of the latest flagship cards from both vendors, I've never been so un-biased.

I look for one thing when I am in the market for a new card: <b>Excellent Price-to-Performance</b>. I don't have an unlimited budget like some do, so all I care is that I'm getting bang for the buck. Future-proof feature support is nice, but I'm not a developer.

<A HREF="http://atomfilms.shockwave.com/landing/landingIndex.jsp..." target="_new">DumbLand</A>
November 18, 2004 6:32:46 PM

phial is ati too

:tongue: <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/priyajeet/fing.jpg" target="_new"><i><font color=red>Very funny, Scotty.</font color=red><font color=blue> Now beam down my clothes.</font color=blue></i></A> :tongue:
November 18, 2004 8:49:27 PM

Pretty much right on there for it give the overall performace score and anything else is not accurate and often biased to specific products.

<i><font color=red>Only an overclocker can make a computer into a convectional oven.</i></font color=red>
November 18, 2004 10:00:26 PM

What's with all the old posts?
November 18, 2004 11:27:02 PM

OMG I came in and seen a thread with my name on it and i thought someone hacked my forum account

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<A HREF="http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/you.html" target="_new">please dont click here! </A>
Brand name whores are stupid!
November 18, 2004 11:32:32 PM

Where does that come from!!!!!!!!!



BTW that was pretty funny:
"""i think Extremetech and the Guys behind this...
we know who they are...
ATi is simply Crying like ladies! because the Nv35 kicked the ass,
of R350.. in games!!! where it matters.. " """

Signature (up to 200 characters). You may use <font color=blue><b>Markup</b></font color=blue> in your signature
November 18, 2004 11:36:45 PM

you know the first thing that came to mind when i read my old post was "damn i was such a newb back then, didnt even link to the threads i copied from"



-------
<A HREF="http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/you.html" target="_new">please dont click here! </A>
Brand name whores are stupid!
a b U Graphics card
November 19, 2004 4:33:33 AM

LOL, digging up the old bones.

Funny how the more times change the more they stay the same. :lol: 



- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
November 19, 2004 11:23:57 AM

"do take note of FutureMark scores, but benchmarks just don't mean that much in the end. For example, look at the 6800U and X800XT- one's faster in Doom, and the other is faster in HL2 (at highest settings). However, both of them are obnoxiously powerful in all games. NV's faster in Game X, and next week ATi is faster in game Y. The aforementioned cards are basically equal in performance. There is no benchmark that demonstrates that one of the cards is fundamentally better. In light of the latest flagship cards from both vendors, I've never been so un-biased.

I look for one thing when I am in the market for a new card: Excellent Price-to-Performance. I don't have an unlimited budget like some do, so all I care is that I'm getting bang for the buck. Future-proof feature support is nice, but I'm not a developer."


Amen, in a environnment of the same stale arguements a breath of fresh air....


Asus p4c800 Deluxe,1 Gig Mushkin PC3200 Dual Channel Level II V2,Pentium 4 3.0 512k 800fsb HT, Thermaltake Xaser III, Thermaltake Spark 7+, Sound Blaster Audigy2 ZS Platinum Pro, eVGA GeForce 6800 GT
November 20, 2004 4:33:38 AM

Quote:
you know the first thing that came to mind when i read my old post was "damn i was such a newb back then,

You still are... :tongue:

--
<font color=blue>Ede</font color=blue><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Eden on 11/20/04 01:33 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
!