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[Announce] Infernal Plague: The Return of Nergal

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Anonymous
September 1, 2005 10:36:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Infernal Plague: The Return of Nergal

Prologue

Alan Sovereign could follow a paper trail like no other. Of course, his
ability to obscure financial transactions was also unparalleled.
However, Alan's new responsibilities in Rome pushed even his limits and
he struggled to secure the Camarilla's remaining financial resources
and to fund the coming war.

As he reviewed the wire transfers that had wiped out Camarilla
investment accounts around the world, Alan could trace most of the
transactions back to specific turncoats-identifying by name each
traitor and recording their transgressions on a legal pad. All of the
names were at least familiar to him but he was genuinely shocked by a
few that made his list. Alan figured that at least a couple were not
willful in their treachery, either brainwashed Manchurians carefully
placed within the Camarilla's ranks or possibly even unwitting
accomplices. In addition, Alan reasoned that at least a few others were
probably not turncoats at all. Up until this point, everyone had
assumed that anyone who went missing that night had defected. He
realized that some could have been tortured for their information and
killed afterward. At least he hoped this was true since it would mean
that the infernal infiltration was not as pervasive as they had
initially feared.

Alan also suspected that a handful of traitors probably remained within
their ranks. Whether or not this was actually the case, there was now
so much latent suspicion and fear that few princes were cooperating
outside of their own ranks of trusted advisors. The infernalist threat
would require a unified response from the Camarilla-a prospect that
was becoming increasingly unlikely.

Alan rose from his high-backed leather chair and turned to face an
ill-fitting area of brick that had once been a window when the building
was first constructed.

A knock on the office door went unacknowledged, as one of Alan's new
associates entered.

"Mister Sovereign?" said Stephen. "Sir?"

"Yes," responded Alan paying only partial attention.

Stephen moved forward cautiously. The gravity of Alan's new
responsibilities created a remarkable transformation in his demeanor
and in the way others related to him. Nothing remained of the bookish
accountant and now even his former peers were reluctant to meet his
gaze.

"Sir, we have a report that Barbaro has left Rome and has traveled to
Amman. It would seem more than a coincidence considering the Vatican's
reports of a break-in and theft of what they are calling 'documents of
historical significance'."

"Leave me," said Alan quietly and without turning around. Alan still
didn't completely trust his new staff and even though Hardestadt had
hand-picked them all, one just couldn't be careful enough these nights.


Once the office door closed, Alan moved back to his desk and retrieved
a report that had once seemed unimportant yet now took on new meaning.
The report described minor raids by infernalists in Damascus and
Chorazin but it concluded that the targeted locations were merely
symbolic and wouldn't provide any strategic advantages.

Alan quickly modified an order for 500 Austrian Steyrs, and redirected
the weapons shipment to the port of Aqaba.

"I don't know what they're up to," Alan conceded, "but I'll be damned
if we won't be there to meet them."

* * *

Beneath towering sheer cliffs Barbaro, Sela and Helena walked through
the narrow and twisting path that would lead to Petra. Working their
way deeper into the heart of the mountain, they proceeded through the
ravine and only occasionally glimpsed moonlight as it entered from
between the tall peaks. The seemingly endless trek eventually opened
into a view of magnificent buildings, carved directly into the red,
pink, and orange cliffs. The ruins of Petra were still impressive and
retained architectural traces of their Roman heritage. As their
elevation increased, the three passed countless tombs cut directly into
the mountain. While traversing a narrow path up the rocky face, Barbaro
was awash in memories and reflected on his role in the centuries of
planning that were about to come to fruition.

Barbaro remembered with regret the exact moment the teachings of his
mentor and fellow priest had taken an odd turn, and how his
split-second decision to not end the lesson had paved the way into
curiosity and eventually, interest in occult rituals. He recalled his
own Embrace and rebirth within the walls of the Vatican and his
struggle to reconcile his new nature with his old God. He would also
never forget the night he realized that he too was just a
tool-nothing more than a minor player on a grand stage. In a larger
sense, he recognized that his story was not much different than that of
Helena or Sela-all three had been sought out specifically for the
task at-hand. Helena's hatred of Menele and her willingness to pay any
cost for even a weak and convoluted form of revenge made her an easy
mark for Barbaro's manipulations, while Sela's naked ambition was even
easier to mold. Barbaro wondered what his own flaw was that allowed him
to be so easily manipulated those centuries ago-though that mattered
little to him anymore. Warmed by the knowledge that he was about to
earn his damnation rather than having it thrust upon him, Barbaro
clutched the ancient text describing the Lasombra's ritual.

The flattened top of the peak revealed an ancient holy place. Centuries
of wind and rain had served to smooth every sharp stone surface while
deepening and refining every crevice. Barbaro was pleased to find the
altar basically intact. In times passed death cultists, and the
Nabateans before them, would slaughter their sacrifices
upon the altar while the blood flowed through carved channels into
smaller reservoirs. Additional canals would handle heavier run-off and
distribute the blood to the furthest reaches of the plateau.

As the three stood near the altar, Barbaro produced the ancient text.
He had rehearsed with Helena many times and was confident that she'd
perform perfectly. Sela, however, would be able to play her part
without rehearsal.

Helena stood silent and motionless for a moment and soon after, a
single black tentacle reached out from her hands and danced before
them. While Barbaro's outstretched arms held the ancient text for
Helena to read from, the moon's light transformed the scene around
them-covering everything in an ever-deepening shade of purple.
As Helena began to read aloud from the text, the tentacle leapt into
her mouth and acted as a tongue while she mouthed the powerful words.
Barbaro displayed an almost fatherly smile as he witnessed the power of
Helena's potent blood.

Helena ceased speaking and she and Barbaro turned toward Sela. As Sela
began to speak, the tentacle retreated from Helena and jumped into
Sela's mouth. However, the words she spoke were unintelligible and
seemed to be directed by the black tongue itself. Though her ears
couldn't understand the words she spoke, Sela knew that she spoke of an
Abyssal prison, and of doors...and keys...and sacrifice. Sela's eyes
widened with understanding. Fear enveloped her as the ebony tongue
rapidly sprouted offshoots that sprung forward and wrapped themselves
completely around her. Sela let loose a garbled scream before her
pitch-black body burst into a lightless flame which whirled around and
displaced the moon's remaining light. Barbaro and Helena observed their
sacrifice as the remnants of Sela formed a black pool upon the altar.
The black sludge quickly filled the shallow reservoirs to capacity and
the excess moved throughout the canals across the entire plateau.

The earth trembled as a sea of grey rats poured from an expanding pit
in the center of the plateau. Helena advanced toward the opening and
the fleeing rats parted for her. With each step Helena's confidence
grew and she descended the chasm without fear. In a flash of darkness
she stepped into the void.

Barbaro's warnings had been accurate, for the attacks came almost
immediately. Helena steadied herself as she sensed the Abyssal
creatures' attempts to possess her. She could feel their desire for
such a powerful host and she steeled her will against them. The gift of
Lasombra flowed from her and Helena repelled each attack with ease.

Helena moved with blinding speed within the Abyss and searched out the
darkest places in creation. She peered into the physical world and
witnessed a murder in a darkened alley and a secret conceived in a
motel room. She sped past earthly prison cells, lightless caves and
inner chambers, until she came to a place as dark as the sun is
light-the blackness of an impossible midnight. From this place Helena
called out, "Come forth Nergal, Prince of Hell. You have been freed
from your shadow prison so that you may sate your thirst on the blood
of Menele."


*********************************

Between October 1st and December 18th, 2005 results of special Vampire:
The Eternal Struggle tournaments from around the world will create the
final chapter of this story.

Each player attending a designated storyline tournament will receive a
special promo-only card of Nergal, Alan Sovereign (Advanced) and Helena
(Advanced). These promo-only cards will remain in limited circulation
for at least one year before being released into general support
packages.

THE RULES
=========
Except as noted in these instructions, the tournament will follow the
Standard Constructed Tournament format and current V:EKN rules.

* At least 75% (e.g., 9 out of 12) of the vampires in a player's crypt
must be the same clan.

* Each player will receive one Nergal, Alan Sovereign (Advanced) and
Helena (Advanced) promo-only card. Players may add one Alan Sovereign
(Advanced) and one Helena (Advanced) promo-only card to his or her
crypt before play begins. Only one Alan Sovereign (Advanced) and one
Helena (Advanced) may be used in each crypt. For purposes of this event
only, the group number of these two promo-only cards is ignored, and
may be mixed with any otherwise legal crypt. The resulting crypt must
still meet the 75% rule above.

* Recalled to the Founder and True Faith are banned.

* The final round will be played using a specially designed Nergal,
Prince of Hell deck. All cards in this deck are illegal for play
outside of this event and are clearly identified as such. The operation
of this deck and rules for the final round are presented in detail
below.

FINAL ROUND SETUP
==============
Before seating and order of play is determined for the Final Round, one
finalist will be selected to play a specially designed Nergal, Prince
of Hell deck. The option to play the Nergal deck will be offered first
to the top seeded player. If the top seeded player refuses the
opportunity to play the Nergal deck, the option passes to the second
seeded player and so on through the fourth seeded finalist. If none of
the first four seeded finalists choose to play the Nergal deck, the
fifth seeded player must play the deck instead of the deck they began
the event with.

Only the players NOT playing the Nergal deck will choose their seats
and determine the order of play in the normal fashion. The Nergal deck
player will play last in the turn order.

PREDATOR AND PREY
===============
The Nergal deck is the predator and prey of every other player. To make
this easier to visualize, the Nergal deck can place its controlled
cards in the center of the table. We'll refer to the Nergal deck as the
virtual prey and virtual predator while we'll refer to the prey and
predator who sit to the left and right of each player as each player's
natural prey and natural predator.

Seating Example:

Aaron, Brian, Chad, Darby and Eric are our five finalists. Eric, the
top seed has accepted the Nergal deck and will play fifth in the turn
order. The remaining four players choose seating as normal. Darby ends
up preying on Aaron who preys on Brian who preys on Chad who preys on
Darby. Darby is randomly selected to go first in the turn order. Eric,
the Nergal deck player, sits between Chad and Darby and takes his turn
fifth in the turn order (after Chad and before Darby).

Darby Aaron
Eric
Chad Brian

Each player has two prey and two predators (save for Eric who has four
prey and predators). Brian preys on Chad and on Eric. Darby preys on
Aaron and on Eric. Chad's predators are Brian and also Eric.

TARGETS
=======
Since all players now have multiple predators and prey, the Methuselah
**playing a card** or **taking an action** may need to clarify which
prey or predator their action or effect is targetting. Other effects
are resolved using turn order to temporarily determine prey and
predator.

Examples:

Aaron wishes to bleed with one of his vampires. The default bleeds
action is directed at Aaron's prey. Since Aaron has two prey, a natural
prey (Brian) and a virtual prey (Eric), he may choose to bleed either
Brian or Eric with his bleed.

Chad plays a Night Moves action card and one of his vampires may now
bleed his predator or prey. Chad may choose to target his prey Darby,
his predator Brian, or his virtual predator and prey, Eric.

Brian controls Afifa, The Herald and puts a Gehenna card in play. His
prey burns 1 pool. Since Afifa's effect is not a card play or cardless
action, her controller cannot choose who to target with the damage.
Brian's natural prey, Chad, burns the 1 pool.

Darby is being bled by one of Chad's minions. Darby plays My Enemy's
Enemy and may choose to send the bleed to Brian or Eric.

Darby is bled by Eric. Darby plays My Enemy's Enemy, and may choose to
send the bleed to Aaron, Eric, Chad, or himself (since all are Eric's
predators).

Reins of Power - The player who plays before the Nergal deck in the
turn order is considered the Nergal deck's predator. The player
following the Nergal deck in the turn order is considered its prey.

Millicent Smith, Puritan Vampire Hunter - Millicent moves to the
natural predator.


WHO MAY BLOCK
==============
When any non-Nergal deck player takes an undirected action, the option
to attempt to block is first given to their natural prey and then their
natural predator. The acting player's virtual prey and predator-the
Nergal deck player-has the next option to block.

When the Nergal deck player takes an undirected action, any player may
block the action. The first opportunity is given to the player
following the Nergal deck in the turn order and then the next player in
the turn order and so on.

Who may normally block a directed action is not changed-the player
being targetted by the directed action may attempt to block. Other
players using cards such as Eagle's Sight may make block attempts
beginning with the player following the acting player in the turn
order.

NERGAL VICTORY CONDITIONS
========================
The Nergal deck wins if it is the last player standing. If the Nergal
deck wins, its player may keep the Nergal deck. If the Nergal deck
loses, the event's winner keeps the deck.

THE NERGAL, PRINCE OF HELL DECK
=========================
All of the library cards in this deck are variations of existing
library cards and have been modified in various ways to represent
Nergal's power. Read the card texts carefully and don't assume the
cards work the same way as legal-for-play version. The crypt consists
of only one vampire which is also illegal outside of this event.

THE WINNING CLAN
==============
We will keep a tally of the winning clans from each event. The clan
that obtains the most storyline victories will be rewarded with a
special reward card in the next available expansion.

QUESTIONS
=========
Contact Robert Goudie at vtesstory@white-wolf.com

More about : announce infernal plague return nergal

Anonymous
September 1, 2005 11:05:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Jozxyqk wrote:
> OK, a couple of questions about this format:
>
> * If the Nergal Deck wins, will "Nergal" be the Winning Clan?

Yes. (Thanks for bringing that up!) We'll have to make that clear when
this makes it to the White Wolf page. Of course, if clan "Nergal" wins
the reward card will end up being Baali and not clan Nergal. :) 

> * Will Nergal, or any of the cards in his special deck, *ever* be legal
> for tournament play?

No.

> I guess it depends on what the cards actually
> are, but I'm not sure why you'd want to win these promo cards that are
> intentionally unplayable...

Just a little souvenir of your victory. Thought about offering the
scalps of your opponents instead but we settled on this.

-Robert

vtesstory@white-wolf.com
Anonymous
September 1, 2005 11:39:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Helena ceased speaking and she and Barbaro turned toward Sela. As Sela
began to speak, the tentacle retreated from Helena and jumped into
Sela's mouth. However, the words she spoke were unintelligible and
seemed to be directed by the black tongue itself. Though her ears
couldn't understand the words she spoke, Sela knew that she spoke of an

Abyssal prison, and of doors...and keys...and sacrifice. Sela's eyes
widened with understanding. Fear enveloped her as the ebony tongue
rapidly sprouted offshoots that sprung forward and wrapped themselves
completely around her. Sela let loose a garbled scream before her
pitch-black body burst into a lightless flame which whirled around and
displaced the moon's remaining light. Barbaro and Helena observed their

sacrifice as the remnants of Sela formed a black pool upon the altar.
The black sludge quickly filled the shallow reservoirs to capacity and
the excess moved throughout the canals across the entire plateau.


I assume that this means Sela is dead?
Related resources
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 12:04:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

>
>
> I assume that this means Sela is dead?

Well then, I'm making a deck with Sela as my superstar... Lots of
vendettas and combat... Mmmmmmmmmm...
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 12:58:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

OK, a couple of questions about this format:

* If the Nergal Deck wins, will "Nergal" be the Winning Clan?

* Will Nergal, or any of the cards in his special deck, *ever* be legal
for tournament play? I guess it depends on what the cards actually
are, but I'm not sure why you'd want to win these promo cards that are
intentionally unplayable...

Other than that, it looks like an interesting and confusing format.
Hopefully these events will run smoothly and enjoyably.
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 2:51:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

> * Will Nergal, or any of the cards in his special deck, *ever* be legal
> for tournament play? I guess it depends on what the cards actually
> are, but I'm not sure why you'd want to win these promo cards that are
> intentionally unplayable...
>
> Other than that, it looks like an interesting and confusing format.
> Hopefully these events will run smoothly and enjoyably.
>
>

From the description, the cards in the Nergal deck are alternate versions
of existing cards. So Enhanced Senses (Nergal) could read

aus: +1 Intercept
AUS: +2 Intercept and burn the acting minion if the block is successful.
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 3:00:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Robert Goudie wrote:
> PREDATOR AND PREY
> ===============
> The Nergal deck is the predator and prey of every other player.

So if the Nergal deck is ousted, all surviving Methuselahs gain 1 VP
and 6 pool?
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 5:22:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Robert Goudie wrote:
>
> Between October 1st and December 18th, 2005 results of special Vampire:
> The Eternal Struggle tournaments from around the world will create the
> final chapter of this story.
>
> Each player attending a designated storyline tournament will receive a
> special promo-only card of Nergal, Alan Sovereign (Advanced) and Helena
> (Advanced). These promo-only cards will remain in limited circulation
> for at least one year before being released into general support
> packages.

Since October 1st then would be the official release date for the three
promo cards, they would be legal for sanctioned events starting October
31st - correct?

Hardy Range
Prince of Bochum, Germany
http://www.vekn.de
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 8:38:33 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Robert Goudie <robertg@vtesinla.org> wrote:

> Jozxyqk wrote:
> > OK, a couple of questions about this format:
> >
> > * If the Nergal Deck wins, will "Nergal" be the Winning Clan?

> Yes. (Thanks for bringing that up!) We'll have to make that clear when
> this makes it to the White Wolf page. Of course, if clan "Nergal" wins
> the reward card will end up being Baali and not clan Nergal. :) 

Then it confuses me why anyone would want to choose to play Nergal in
the final round.
If I go to a Storyline, with a deck of my chosen clan, that generally
means that I want my clan to win; if I make it to the finals, and then I
play as Nergal, then it didn't matter at all which clan I was playing.
If my intention is to play the Nergal deck from the beginning, then my
incentive is to play sleaze/cheese, rather than a creative choice of clan.

What I propose is that the person who plays Nergal in the final round,
represents Nergal *and* their original clan. Give the player some
credit for how he got there.
Much like the winners of the first Infernal Storyline would be "clan"
plus "Infernal/Non-Infernal".

So, if I play my first 3 rounds with, say, a Gargoyle deck, and I make
it into the finals, I can freely choose Nergal without dismissing the
fact that *I got into the finals with a Gargoyle deck!*.
And if "Nergal+Gargoyles" win the most Storyline tournaments, then the
bonus card can be an Infernal Gargoyle toy, or whatever.

Thoughts?
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 8:48:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Another question:
If this is going until December 18, and the release date for LoB ends up
being November 18 or earlier, will it be legal to play Legacies of Blood
cards in this storyline?

If there are entirely new Ebony Kingdom clans, as rumored, will those
new clans have a shot at winning the Storylines if enough princes waited
until the last minute to run their tournaments?

My suspicion is that this will end on December 18 specifically because
it will be less than 30 days after the release date of Legacies, but I'm
just wondering...
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 11:11:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Jozxyqk wrote:
> Another question:
> If this is going until December 18, and the release date for LoB ends up
> being November 18 or earlier, will it be legal to play Legacies of Blood
> cards in this storyline?

When LoB cards become legal for regular tournament play, they may then
be played in the storyline event.

> If there are entirely new Ebony Kingdom clans, as rumored, will those
> new clans have a shot at winning the Storylines if enough princes waited
> until the last minute to run their tournaments?

Sounds similarly suspicious to that drive to make the Ravnos control
Baltimore. :)  Go right ahead.

> My suspicion is that this will end on December 18 specifically because
> it will be less than 30 days after the release date of Legacies, but I'm
> just wondering...

Just a coincidence.

-Robert

Robert Goudie
V:EKN Storyline Director
vtesstory@white-wolf.com
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 11:53:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Andreas Nusser wrote:

> Have there been any information about stock number and prices?

That's supposed to all be on the Conclave list but the list seems to be
having problems right now. Keep your eyes on your email over the next
day of two. Hopefully they'll have the problems cleared-up by then.

> I assume there might be a little bit more expesive than the regualr
> tournament kits.

Just a little bit, IIRC.

-Robert

Robert Goudie
V:EKN Storyline Director
vtesstory@white-wolf.com
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 12:19:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Jozxyqk wrote:
> Robert Goudie <robertg@vtesinla.org> wrote:
>
> > Jozxyqk wrote:
> > > OK, a couple of questions about this format:
> > >
> > > * If the Nergal Deck wins, will "Nergal" be the Winning Clan?
>
> > Yes. (Thanks for bringing that up!) We'll have to make that clear when
> > this makes it to the White Wolf page. Of course, if clan "Nergal" wins
> > the reward card will end up being Baali and not clan Nergal. :) 
>
> Then it confuses me why anyone would want to choose to play Nergal in
> the final round.
> If I go to a Storyline, with a deck of my chosen clan, that generally
> means that I want my clan to win; if I make it to the finals, and then I
> play as Nergal, then it didn't matter at all which clan I was playing.
> If my intention is to play the Nergal deck from the beginning, then my
> incentive is to play sleaze/cheese, rather than a creative choice of clan.
>
> What I propose is that the person who plays Nergal in the final round,
> represents Nergal *and* their original clan. Give the player some
> credit for how he got there.
> Much like the winners of the first Infernal Storyline would be "clan"
> plus "Infernal/Non-Infernal".
>
> So, if I play my first 3 rounds with, say, a Gargoyle deck, and I make
> it into the finals, I can freely choose Nergal without dismissing the
> fact that *I got into the finals with a Gargoyle deck!*.
> And if "Nergal+Gargoyles" win the most Storyline tournaments, then the
> bonus card can be an Infernal Gargoyle toy, or whatever.
>
> Thoughts?

If you are correct, and players will not want to volunteer to play the
Nergal deck, then this is nothing more than "The top 4 players make a
final with their clan. The 5th place person gets to play the Nergal
deck."

However, some players will undoubtedly be playing the event primarily
to have fun (not necessarily to advance a specific clan), and playing
the Nergal deck sounds like an awful lot of fun to me.

-John Flournoy
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 12:22:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Emmit Svenson wrote:
> Robert Goudie wrote:
> > PREDATOR AND PREY
> > ===============
> > The Nergal deck is the predator and prey of every other player.
>
> So if the Nergal deck is ousted, all surviving Methuselahs gain 1 VP
> and 6 pool?

Or in the same vein, If the Nergal deck ousts a player, does the Nergal
deck and that player's predator gain 1 VP and 6 pool?

Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 12:36:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

John Flournoy wrote:
> If you are correct, and players will not want to volunteer to play the
> Nergal deck, then this is nothing more than "The top 4 players make a
> final with their clan. The 5th place person gets to play the Nergal
> deck."
>
> However, some players will undoubtedly be playing the event primarily
> to have fun (not necessarily to advance a specific clan), and playing
> the Nergal deck sounds like an awful lot of fun to me.
>
> -John Flournoy

Never played a Storyline event, but hell... i'm one of those aiming for
the fun of playing Nergal, not so much as "advancing clans" (tough in
any case if I can't play with Nergal's but happen to advance my clan,
well, that's an ok secondary objective).

Regards,
Andrés.
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 1:21:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Jozxyqk wrote:
> John Flournoy <carneggy@gmail.com> wrote:

> But my point still stands:
> Those who have no interest in playing the Nergal deck, and want to
> advance their clan, will get no credit for their clan making the finals,
> if they are forced to play Nergal.
> Granted, most players who don't want Nergal will not be forced to play
> Nergal. It's only the case if nobody in the final round wants to play
> it and you're in 5th place.

You're right. Which means that effectively, if you want to advance your
clan, you can view the tournament as 'you need to finish in the top 4.'

It's not substantially different than saying 'this storyline has a
4-person final', except that the 5th place person might also get a
(reduced) chance to win the tournament for their clan. (Issues of wacky
final-round play-format aside, of course.)

You keep saying 'get no credit for their clan making the finals'.
Nobody gets credit in a storyline for -making- the final, they get
credit for -winning- the finals. There's no reward for 'most 3rd place
finishes'.

> On the flip side, those who are definitely interested in playing the
> Nergal deck will need to play to get to top seed (in case someone else
> is interested in playing Nergal). Therefore they are more likely to
> play "cheesy" decks (cheesequake or arika-vote aren't difficult to do
> with 75%-clan restrictions) which, in my opinion, cheapen the whole fun
> of a Storyline.

On the flip-flip side, those who were definitely interested in past
storylines in winning tournament prize support (as opposed to advancing
a clan) were more likely to play "cheesy" decks, like Arika-vote or
Giovanni crypt machine. And look, people -did- play those two decks, in
numbers, in almost every storyline. Do you think all the people playing
Ventrue/Arika decks did so because of a mass burning desire to make
Ventrue stronger, or because they wanted to win, baby, win? Playing
cheese to win already happens in storylines. I don't see this one as
being a new, suddenly different case.

> (Then again, someone may argue "Why aren't you trying to get top seed
> anyway? This is a tournament and you should always play to maximize
> your position!" My response to that is that I'd rather see a variety of
> clans, even more 'challenging' ones.)

So would I. So would many people. Not everyone plays for fun as often
as you and I do. (greedy booster-craving bastards!)

> All I'm asking for is that whoever ends up playing Nergal also gets
> *some* sort of recognition for the clan they came in with. Even if
> it's just a tip of the hat in the epilogue, it's only fair to
> acknowledge the deck that the player actually built, and made it to the
> finals with.

We should certainly ask Robert to track that, and see what the numbers
look like at the end of things.

> There is a big difference between "Malk Stealth Bleed, 3 GW, 15 VPs"
> before playing Nergal, and "Samedi Rush, 0 GW, 3 VPs, 5th place" before
> playing Nergal.
> It is unfair to force the person who wants to get credit for his clan,
> to get absolutely no credit for his clan. Plus, it is a nice spice for
> the story to find out what clan was most popular in getting *to* Nergal
> anyway.

Agree with the 'spice'. I don't agree that it's 'unfair'.

If you want to get credit for your clan, you have to enter the finals
in the top 4, and you have to WIN without playing Nergal. You might
also be able to do so in 5th place if you win, but that's not
guaranteed.

How is this 'unfair'? Everybody clearly knows in advance that the top 4
players can play their decks in the finals if they choose.

If it's 'unfair' that the 5th-place player might get screwed and play
Nergal, how is that different than how the 5th-place player gets
'unfairly' prevented from having any choice about his seating in the
final?

"Wah, it's unfair, this other person got to pick who his predator and
prey are, and I didn't, so he's got an unfair advantage! Waaaah!" "Uh,
Joe, that's because he's in 1st place and you're in 5th." "UNFAIR
WAAAH"

I don't see a whole lot of difference between that and "I got stuck
with Nergal and he didn't WAAAH" - finishing higher entering a final
has always given you an advantage, and this storyline is no different.

-John Flournoy
-practicing the hatin on Josh :p 
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 1:50:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Emmit Svenson wrote:
> Robert Goudie wrote:
> > PREDATOR AND PREY
> > ===============
> > The Nergal deck is the predator and prey of every other player.
>
> So if the Nergal deck is ousted, all surviving Methuselahs gain 1 VP
> and 6 pool?

Yes.

Robert Goudie
V:EKN Storyline Director
vtesstory@white-wolf.com
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 1:51:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

XZealot wrote:
> Emmit Svenson wrote:
> > Robert Goudie wrote:
> > > PREDATOR AND PREY
> > > ===============
> > > The Nergal deck is the predator and prey of every other player.
> >
> > So if the Nergal deck is ousted, all surviving Methuselahs gain 1 VP
> > and 6 pool?
>
> Or in the same vein, If the Nergal deck ousts a player, does the Nergal
> deck and that player's predator gain 1 VP and 6 pool?

Yes. Though, the VPs don't do the Nergal deck much good since they are
shooting for last player standing as their victory condition.

Robert Goudie
V:EKN Storyline Director
vtesstory@white-wolf.com
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 2:01:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Jozxyqk wrote:
> John Flournoy <carneggy@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Jozxyqk wrote:
> > > All I'm asking for is that whoever ends up playing Nergal also gets
> > > *some* sort of recognition for the clan they came in with. Even if
> > > it's just a tip of the hat in the epilogue, it's only fair to
> > > acknowledge the deck that the player actually built, and made it to the
> > > finals with.
>
> > We should certainly ask Robert to track that, and see what the numbers
> > look like at the end of things.
>
> Yes. That is all I want.

I'll include that question on the storyline questionnaire.

-Robert

Robert Goudie
V:EKN Storyline Director
vtesstory@white-wolf.com
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 2:03:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Robert Goudie wrote:
> Jozxyqk wrote:
> > John Flournoy <carneggy@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Jozxyqk wrote:
> > > > All I'm asking for is that whoever ends up playing Nergal also gets
> > > > *some* sort of recognition for the clan they came in with. Even if
> > > > it's just a tip of the hat in the epilogue, it's only fair to
> > > > acknowledge the deck that the player actually built, and made it to the
> > > > finals with.
> >
> > > We should certainly ask Robert to track that, and see what the numbers
> > > look like at the end of things.
> >
> > Yes. That is all I want.
>
> I'll include that question on the storyline questionnaire.

Great! Thanks!

> -Robert

-John Flournoy
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 2:07:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Jozxyqk wrote:
> John Flournoy <carneggy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > You keep saying 'get no credit for their clan making the finals'.
> > Nobody gets credit in a storyline for -making- the final, they get
> > credit for -winning- the finals. There's no reward for 'most 3rd place
> > finishes'.
>
> In most tournaments, you make the finals with a deck you brought/built
> yourself. When you are in the finals, you usually play that deck. If
> you win the tournament, you get to say that you won with that deck. I
> just want the players who play Nergal and also win the tournament to get
> credit for the deck that they brought with them.

Acknowledgement, yes. Credit, enh. If you give credit for people
'forced' to play Nergal, you are giving credit to people _volunteering_
to play Nergal, and those people (IMO) weren't playing to advance a
clan, so why credit them with doing so? Otherwise, 5th place gets a
reward (you got stuck with Nergal, so your clan still gets credit) that
1st-4th don't (you obviously chose Nergal, your clan gets squat) and
that's clearly wrong.

> > > (Then again, someone may argue "Why aren't you trying to get top seed
> > > anyway? This is a tournament and you should always play to maximize
> > > your position!" My response to that is that I'd rather see a variety of
> > > clans, even more 'challenging' ones.)
>
> > So would I. So would many people. Not everyone plays for fun as often
> > as you and I do. (greedy booster-craving bastards!)
>
> I'm not saying to disallow the "Top Tier decks". I'm saying to
> encourage the playing of more creative decks.
> If you play Nergal (by choice or by force) and your preliminary-round deck
> is "forgotten", where is the incentive to play something interesting?

If your 'interesting' deck can't -win the tourney- on it's own, it's
going to be forgotten anyway - nobody remembers how many Kiasyd decks
made the finals of the last storyline, only those that won. If your
deck is creative but can't win (so you choose to play Nergal to have a
better chance of winning), your deck choice will have almost certainly
been ultimately ignored in any other storyline, too. If your creative
choice is good enough to win, it should be good enough not to minimally
make the finals - and the percentage of people who finish 5th with a
'creative' deck yet still reasonably expect to win the finals is pretty
small, IMO.

> > > All I'm asking for is that whoever ends up playing Nergal also gets
> > > *some* sort of recognition for the clan they came in with. Even if
> > > it's just a tip of the hat in the epilogue, it's only fair to
> > > acknowledge the deck that the player actually built, and made it to the
> > > finals with.
>
> > We should certainly ask Robert to track that, and see what the numbers
> > look like at the end of things.
>
> Yes. That is all I want.

Okay, that's fine. I certainly agree that we should track this - I'm
really just saying 'but don't actually reward those clans in any
game-specific way'.

> > If you want to get credit for your clan, you have to enter the finals
> > in the top 4, and you have to WIN without playing Nergal. You might
> > also be able to do so in 5th place if you win, but that's not
> > guaranteed.
>
> I am including the player who *chooses* to play Nergal, but also wants
> it to be known that he made it into the finals with a Samedi deck, when
> he wins the tournament.
>
> That's the point you're missing.

Misreading, really - I couldn't tell if you were saying 'Let people
know he won with Samedi' vs 'Give the Samedi actual credit in some form
towards winning the Storyline event'. The former I'm fine with, the
latter I'm not.

> -Josh
> -practicing the being-hated-upon

-John Flournoy
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 2:08:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Emmit Svenson wrote:
> Robert Goudie wrote:
> > PREDATOR AND PREY
> > ===============
> > The Nergal deck is the predator and prey of every other player.
>
> So if the Nergal deck is ousted, all surviving Methuselahs gain 1 VP
> and 6 pool?

Yes.

-Robert

Robert Goudie
V:EKN Storyline Director
vtesstory@white-wolf.com
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 2:09:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Robert Goudie wrote:
> Infernal Plague: The Return of Nergal
>
> PREDATOR AND PREY
> ===============
> The Nergal deck is the predator and prey of every other player. To make
> this easier to visualize, the Nergal deck can place its controlled
> cards in the center of the table. We'll refer to the Nergal deck as the
> virtual prey and virtual predator while we'll refer to the prey and
> predator who sit to the left and right of each player as each player's
> natural prey and natural predator.
>
>
> NERGAL VICTORY CONDITIONS
> ========================
> The Nergal deck wins if it is the last player standing. If the Nergal
> deck wins, its player may keep the Nergal deck. If the Nergal deck
> loses, the event's winner keeps the deck.

When the Nergal deck is ousted, does every player get 1VP and 6 pool,
since Nergal is the 'prey of every other player'?

-John Flournoy
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 2:10:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Jozxyqk wrote:
> John Flournoy <carneggy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > You keep saying 'get no credit for their clan making the finals'.
> > Nobody gets credit in a storyline for -making- the final, they get
> > credit for -winning- the finals. There's no reward for 'most 3rd place
> > finishes'.
>
> In most tournaments, you make the finals with a deck you brought/built
> yourself. When you are in the finals, you usually play that deck. If
> you win the tournament, you get to say that you won with that deck. I
> just want the players who play Nergal and also win the tournament to get
> credit for the deck that they brought with them.

Acknowledgement, yes. Credit, enh. If you give credit for people
'forced' to play Nergal, you are giving credit to people _volunteering_
to play Nergal, and those people (IMO) weren't playing to advance a
clan, so why credit them with doing so? Otherwise, 5th place gets a
reward (you got stuck with Nergal, so your clan still gets credit) that
1st-4th don't (you obviously chose Nergal, your clan gets squat) and
that's clearly wrong.

> > > (Then again, someone may argue "Why aren't you trying to get top seed
> > > anyway? This is a tournament and you should always play to maximize
> > > your position!" My response to that is that I'd rather see a variety of
> > > clans, even more 'challenging' ones.)
>
> > So would I. So would many people. Not everyone plays for fun as often
> > as you and I do. (greedy booster-craving bastards!)
>
> I'm not saying to disallow the "Top Tier decks". I'm saying to
> encourage the playing of more creative decks.
> If you play Nergal (by choice or by force) and your preliminary-round deck
> is "forgotten", where is the incentive to play something interesting?

If your 'interesting' deck can't -win the tourney- on it's own, it's
going to be forgotten anyway - nobody remembers how many Kiasyd decks
made the finals of the last storyline, only those that won. If your
deck is creative but can't win (so you choose to play Nergal to have a
better chance of winning), your deck choice will have almost certainly
been ultimately ignored in any other storyline, too. If your creative
choice is good enough to win, it should be good enough not to minimally
make the finals - and the percentage of people who finish 5th with a
'creative' deck yet still reasonably expect to win the finals is pretty
small, IMO.

> > > All I'm asking for is that whoever ends up playing Nergal also gets
> > > *some* sort of recognition for the clan they came in with. Even if
> > > it's just a tip of the hat in the epilogue, it's only fair to
> > > acknowledge the deck that the player actually built, and made it to the
> > > finals with.
>
> > We should certainly ask Robert to track that, and see what the numbers
> > look like at the end of things.
>
> Yes. That is all I want.

Okay, that's fine. I certainly agree that we should track this - I'm
really just saying 'but don't actually reward those clans in any
game-specific way'.

> > If you want to get credit for your clan, you have to enter the finals
> > in the top 4, and you have to WIN without playing Nergal. You might
> > also be able to do so in 5th place if you win, but that's not
> > guaranteed.
>
> I am including the player who *chooses* to play Nergal, but also wants
> it to be known that he made it into the finals with a Samedi deck, when
> he wins the tournament.
>
> That's the point you're missing.

Misreading, really - I couldn't tell if you were saying 'Let people
know he won with Samedi' vs 'Give the Samedi actual credit in some form
towards winning the Storyline event'. The former I'm fine with, the
latter I'm not.

> -Josh
> -practicing the being-hated-upon

-John Flournoy
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 2:11:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

HardyRange wrote:
> Robert Goudie wrote:
> >
> > Between October 1st and December 18th, 2005 results of special Vampire:
> > The Eternal Struggle tournaments from around the world will create the
> > final chapter of this story.
> >
> > Each player attending a designated storyline tournament will receive a
> > special promo-only card of Nergal, Alan Sovereign (Advanced) and Helena
> > (Advanced). These promo-only cards will remain in limited circulation
> > for at least one year before being released into general support
> > packages.
>
> Since October 1st then would be the official release date for the three
> promo cards, they would be legal for sanctioned events starting October
> 31st - correct?

Correct.

Robert Goudie
V:EKN Storyline Director
vtesstory@white-wolf.com
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 2:13:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

John Flournoy wrote:
> Robert Goudie wrote:
> When the Nergal deck is ousted, does every player get 1VP and 6 pool,
> since Nergal is the 'prey of every other player'?
>
> -John Flournoy

Stupid delays in googlepostings. I already saw the answer to this.

-John
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 3:04:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Jozxyqk wrote:
> Will the texts of the 3 promo cards and the contents of the Nergal deck
> be publicly revealed before the Storyline period begins, so people can
> make an informed decision about whether or not they want to gun for
> Nergal?


The 3 promo cards:

The first promo card is a legal version of Nergal. You aren't allowed
to include this promo card in your storyline deck.

The other 2 promo cards may be added to your storyline deck but since
it's only 1 or 2 cards in your crypt, it shouldn't affect your decision
to "gun for Nergal".

There's no intention to release the texts in advance but it won't hurt
anything if people do release them.

As well, there's no intention to release the contents of the Nergal
deck before the events. Frankly, I think that would reduce the impact
of seeing Nergal hit the table and do his thing. I think people will
enjoy the event more if they don't see everything in advance.

However, I don't doubt there will again be some people who post the
contents on their websites for those who are really really interested
in doing lots of planning.

-Robert

Robert Goudie
V:EKN Storyline Director
vtesstory@white-wolf.com
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 3:06:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

John Flournoy <carneggy@gmail.com> wrote:

> If you are correct, and players will not want to volunteer to play the
> Nergal deck, then this is nothing more than "The top 4 players make a
> final with their clan. The 5th place person gets to play the Nergal
> deck."

> However, some players will undoubtedly be playing the event primarily
> to have fun (not necessarily to advance a specific clan), and playing
> the Nergal deck sounds like an awful lot of fun to me.

But my point still stands:
Those who have no interest in playing the Nergal deck, and want to
advance their clan, will get no credit for their clan making the finals,
if they are forced to play Nergal.
Granted, most players who don't want Nergal will not be forced to play
Nergal. It's only the case if nobody in the final round wants to play
it and you're in 5th place.

On the flip side, those who are definitely interested in playing the
Nergal deck will need to play to get to top seed (in case someone else
is interested in playing Nergal). Therefore they are more likely to
play "cheesy" decks (cheesequake or arika-vote aren't difficult to do
with 75%-clan restrictions) which, in my opinion, cheapen the whole fun
of a Storyline.
(Then again, someone may argue "Why aren't you trying to get top seed
anyway? This is a tournament and you should always play to maximize
your position!" My response to that is that I'd rather see a variety of
clans, even more 'challenging' ones.)

All I'm asking for is that whoever ends up playing Nergal also gets
*some* sort of recognition for the clan they came in with. Even if
it's just a tip of the hat in the epilogue, it's only fair to
acknowledge the deck that the player actually built, and made it to the
finals with.

There is a big difference between "Malk Stealth Bleed, 3 GW, 15 VPs"
before playing Nergal, and "Samedi Rush, 0 GW, 3 VPs, 5th place" before
playing Nergal.
It is unfair to force the person who wants to get credit for his clan,
to get absolutely no credit for his clan. Plus, it is a nice spice for
the story to find out what clan was most popular in getting *to* Nergal
anyway.
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 3:30:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

John Flournoy <carneggy@gmail.com> wrote:

> You keep saying 'get no credit for their clan making the finals'.
> Nobody gets credit in a storyline for -making- the final, they get
> credit for -winning- the finals. There's no reward for 'most 3rd place
> finishes'.

In most tournaments, you make the finals with a deck you brought/built
yourself. When you are in the finals, you usually play that deck. If
you win the tournament, you get to say that you won with that deck. I
just want the players who play Nergal and also win the tournament to get
credit for the deck that they brought with them.

> > (Then again, someone may argue "Why aren't you trying to get top seed
> > anyway? This is a tournament and you should always play to maximize
> > your position!" My response to that is that I'd rather see a variety of
> > clans, even more 'challenging' ones.)

> So would I. So would many people. Not everyone plays for fun as often
> as you and I do. (greedy booster-craving bastards!)

I'm not saying to disallow the "Top Tier decks". I'm saying to
encourage the playing of more creative decks.
If you play Nergal (by choice or by force) and your preliminary-round deck
is "forgotten", where is the incentive to play something interesting?

> > All I'm asking for is that whoever ends up playing Nergal also gets
> > *some* sort of recognition for the clan they came in with. Even if
> > it's just a tip of the hat in the epilogue, it's only fair to
> > acknowledge the deck that the player actually built, and made it to the
> > finals with.

> We should certainly ask Robert to track that, and see what the numbers
> look like at the end of things.

Yes. That is all I want.

> If you want to get credit for your clan, you have to enter the finals
> in the top 4, and you have to WIN without playing Nergal. You might
> also be able to do so in 5th place if you win, but that's not
> guaranteed.

I am including the player who *chooses* to play Nergal, but also wants
it to be known that he made it into the finals with a Samedi deck, when
he wins the tournament.

That's the point you're missing.

-Josh
-practicing the being-hated-upon
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 3:55:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

<d21_aod@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:1125628755.855701.315980@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> Sela let loose a garbled scream before her pitch-black body burst into
>> a lightless flame which whirled around and displaced the moon's
>> remaining light. Barbaro and Helena observed their sacrifice as the
>> remnants of Sela formed a black pool upon the altar. The black sludge
>> quickly filled the shallow reservoirs to capacity and the excess moved
>> throughout the canals across the entire plateau.
>
> I assume that this means Sela is dead?

Another victim forced to watch Gary lip-sync the "Numa Numa Dance"!!!


....pointless....(sigh)
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 4:32:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Will the texts of the 3 promo cards and the contents of the Nergal deck
be publicly revealed before the Storyline period begins, so people can
make an informed decision about whether or not they want to gun for
Nergal?
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 4:32:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

> Agree with the 'spice'. I don't agree that it's 'unfair'.
>

It forces players to make a decision: Do I play for my Clan, or do I play
for Nergal? No other Storyline has forced you to play for a goal other
than your Clan. Sure, you can choose other goals, but no Storyline has set
up such mutually exclusive goals. Even Infernal Plague Round 1, where you
could choose Infernal or Non-Infernal, no matter what decisions you made,
you could still be promoting your Clan, which is the entire point of the
75% rule.
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 7:57:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Robert Goudie wrote:
> Jozxyqk wrote:

> However, I don't doubt there will again be some people who post the
> contents on their websites for those who are really really interested
> in doing lots of planning.

Oh oh! Like me! (recalls Prophecies of Gehenna flame war lovingly...
*sigh*)

~Screaming Vermillian
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 8:47:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Have there been any information about stock number and prices?

I assume there might be a little bit more expesive than the regualr
tournament kits.

Andreas

Robert Goudie schrieb:
> Jozxyqk wrote:
>
>>Another question:
>>If this is going until December 18, and the release date for LoB ends up
>>being November 18 or earlier, will it be legal to play Legacies of Blood
>>cards in this storyline?
>
>
> When LoB cards become legal for regular tournament play, they may then
> be played in the storyline event.
>
>
>>If there are entirely new Ebony Kingdom clans, as rumored, will those
>>new clans have a shot at winning the Storylines if enough princes waited
>>until the last minute to run their tournaments?
>
>
> Sounds similarly suspicious to that drive to make the Ravnos control
> Baltimore. :)  Go right ahead.
>
>
>>My suspicion is that this will end on December 18 specifically because
>>it will be less than 30 days after the release date of Legacies, but I'm
>>just wondering...
>
>
> Just a coincidence.
>
> -Robert
>
> Robert Goudie
> V:EKN Storyline Director
> vtesstory@white-wolf.com
>


--
Andreas Nusser

Walch & Nusser GbR
Visit premier VTES shop in Europe
at http://www.vtes.de

Now taking preorders for LoB!
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 10:02:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Derek Ray wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Robert Goudie wrote:
> > Jozxyqk wrote:
> >
> >>Will the texts of the 3 promo cards and the contents of the Nergal deck
> >>be publicly revealed before the Storyline period begins, so people can
> >>make an informed decision about whether or not they want to gun for
> >>Nergal?
>
> (snip)
>
> > As well, there's no intention to release the contents of the Nergal
> > deck before the events. Frankly, I think that would reduce the impact
> > of seeing Nergal hit the table and do his thing. I think people will
> > enjoy the event more if they don't see everything in advance.
>
> I agree. People would enjoy the event more if it was a surprise.
>
> > However, I don't doubt there will again be some people who post the
> > contents on their websites for those who are really really interested
> > in doing lots of planning.
>
> Given that you don't doubt it and that we've already seen in the past
> that people will be asshats and spoil things whenever possible, why not
> put everyone on an equal footing and release the information, much like
> was done with Barbaro Lucchese? Specifically, Nerdal's (sic) vampire
> card, as it's a bit harder to casually spoil the entire deck?

I'll discuss this with Scott and Stewart and Steve when they return
from DragonCon.

Thanks.

-Robert

Robert Goudie
V:EKN Storyline Director
vtesstory@white-wolf.com
Anonymous
September 3, 2005 12:52:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Robert Goudie wrote:
> Jozxyqk wrote:
>
>>Will the texts of the 3 promo cards and the contents of the Nergal deck
>>be publicly revealed before the Storyline period begins, so people can
>>make an informed decision about whether or not they want to gun for
>>Nergal?

(snip)

> As well, there's no intention to release the contents of the Nergal
> deck before the events. Frankly, I think that would reduce the impact
> of seeing Nergal hit the table and do his thing. I think people will
> enjoy the event more if they don't see everything in advance.

I agree. People would enjoy the event more if it was a surprise.

> However, I don't doubt there will again be some people who post the
> contents on their websites for those who are really really interested
> in doing lots of planning.

Given that you don't doubt it and that we've already seen in the past
that people will be asshats and spoil things whenever possible, why not
put everyone on an equal footing and release the information, much like
was done with Barbaro Lucchese? Specifically, Nerdal's (sic) vampire
card, as it's a bit harder to casually spoil the entire deck?

....Given the tendency of collectible gamers to be, how you say,
"obsessive" over having things nobody else does, I would expect that
competition for the never-to-be-released Special Nerdal Deck will be at
least somewhat heated. Players who gain access to Nerdal's stats and
special early will be able to either (a) spot a clear weakness and
arrange to include cards to handle it in their deck, or (b) realize that
Nerdal is going to cream everyone, and arrange to play a deck that has
the best chance of going into the final in 1st place, knowing they won't
be playing it in that final if they get the chance.

Both ways reduce much of the appeal of playing the final (especially if
some people know and others don't), and both ways reduce the incentive
to play your favorite clans, as if Sense Dep or Seeds of Corruption
proves to be the biggest way to hose Nerdal (I'm assuming neither
obvious tactic will be viable against him), those people will tend to
play Ravnos or Malkavians (hint: Mariel) instead of a clan they might
wish to get a better promo.

- --
Derek

insert clever quotation here
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Anonymous
September 3, 2005 4:19:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

nozleopeli@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > I assume that this means Sela is dead?
>
> Well then, I'm making a deck with Sela as my superstar... Lots of
> vendettas and combat... Mmmmmmmmmm...


I was going to do the same specifcally for this tournament, might still
do it through.
Anonymous
September 5, 2005 5:28:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

John Flournoy wrote:
> Jozxyqk wrote:
> > So, if I play my first 3 rounds with, say, a Gargoyle deck, and I make
> > it into the finals, I can freely choose Nergal without dismissing the
> > fact that *I got into the finals with a Gargoyle deck!*.
> > And if "Nergal+Gargoyles" win the most Storyline tournaments, then the
> > bonus card can be an Infernal Gargoyle toy, or whatever.
> >
> > Thoughts?
>
> If you are correct, and players will not want to volunteer to play the
> Nergal deck, then this is nothing more than "The top 4 players make a
> final with their clan. The 5th place person gets to play the Nergal
> deck."
>
> However, some players will undoubtedly be playing the event primarily
> to have fun (not necessarily to advance a specific clan), and playing
> the Nergal deck sounds like an awful lot of fun to me.

Count me in.

Though I must admit, I've been thinking how much cheese I can "eat" for
that purpose.

The most cheesy deck I've played in a tournament was Gio tap n' bleed.
But I wouldn't try that again, not when aiming for the top seed...

In any case, maybe Princes could encourage Nergal-deck winners to share
the fun and organize special Nergal-nights, when everyone has a shot at
playing it in a fun way.

best,

Fabio "Sooner" Macedo
Anonymous
September 5, 2005 7:31:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Peter D Bakija wrote:
> Fabio Sooner wrote:
>
> > The most cheesy deck I've played in a tournament was Gio tap n' bleed.
> > But I wouldn't try that again, not when aiming for the top seed...
>
> Yeah, we can only assume that the Nergal deck is going to be completely
> crazy...

He'll be more powerful than you are used to. He probably cannot take
on all four other players. If he was as powerful as some players are
thinking then everyone would **have to** gang up on him. Since he's
probably *NOT* powerful enough to take on all other players, that opens
up the game to the possibility that someone will leave Nergal around
and try to take him out later. If, for example, Nergal bleeds your
prey for a lot and sends his vampires to torpor, you'll be given the
choice of bleeding your prey or rescuing his vampires to help kill the
Nergal deck.

>--as it is, what with him being everyone's predator and everyone's
> prey, there is nothing keeping the other 4 players from saying "Huh. Lets,
> uh, make sure this guy is destroyed first, and then finsh out a 4 player
> game!", meaning that all 4 players can team up on him right out of the gate.

That's possible. They'd probably be successful too. In practice it may
not work out that way, though. Sorta like the guy with one bullet who
holds off the mob..."which one of you wants to take the bullet?"

> Then his life is likely to be pretty short...

Of course, any Nergal deck player worth his salt is going to do his
best to make it in someone's best interest to oust their prey. Will
you, for example, continue to attack the Nergal deck--risking your own
vampires' health and maybe making it impossible for you to win the
"normal" game that follows? Will you do that when your prey is
tapped-out and has only 1 pool left? Maybe you
will. Do you also trust the other players enough to tap out repeatedly
in front of them? Will your opinion change when your own pool is down
to 1 and your prey has 1 pool and no blockers? If a player breaks the
arrangement and does something self-serving isntead of attacking
Nergal, how will the other players treat them? Will players lie about
their ability to harm Nergal in an effort to preserve their own
resources for the "normal" game? For example, holding onto a Bum's
Rush and telling everyone you don't have any rush cards--just so you
can keep your own vampire alive?

Sorta like the infernal auction seemed like it might result in
"infinite pool" for someone, things like greed, self-interest, and
self-preservation may intervene.

-Robert

Robert Goudie
V:EKN Storyline Director
vtesstory@white-wolf.com
Anonymous
September 5, 2005 9:43:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Fabio Sooner wrote:

> The most cheesy deck I've played in a tournament was Gio tap n' bleed.
> But I wouldn't try that again, not when aiming for the top seed...

Yeah, we can only assume that the Nergal deck is going to be completely
crazy--as it is, what with him being everyone's predator and everyone's
prey, there is nothing keeping the other 4 players from saying "Huh. Lets,
uh, make sure this guy is destroyed first, and then finsh out a 4 player
game!", meaning that all 4 players can team up on him right out of the gate.

So unless he has cards like:

Reaction: Burn a vampire who has successfully bled you for more than 0.

Combat: Take no damage from any source this round. Combat immediately ends.

Action: (D) Bleed any player at +10 bleed. This action is unblockable. No
player may play reaction cards during this action.

Combat: Strike: Gain 20 Pool!

Then his life is likely to be pretty short...


Peter D Bakija
pdb6@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

"So in conclusion, our business plan is to sell hot,
easily spilled liquids to naked people."
-Brittni Meil
Anonymous
September 7, 2005 5:56:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Why is Nergal played only in the final round? I suspect this is due to
the storyline? Its just that by the time I made the final, I'd like to
stick with my deck all the way through. And the prelim rounds would be
far more interesting if they were nergal games too, allowing someone to
take a nergal deck all the way through the event.

$.02
Anonymous
September 7, 2005 6:19:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

talonz wrote:
> Why is Nergal played only in the final round?

Logistics mainly. Figured people wouldn't want to pay for an expensive
storyline kit that had multiple decks. So we designed it for the final
round only. Now that it's designed that way, you'd probably not enjoy
the experience of having that deck at every table.

> I suspect this is due to
> the storyline? Its just that by the time I made the final, I'd like to
> stick with my deck all the way through.

Then finish as one of the top 4 finalists and don't choose to play the
Nergal deck.

I understand that the fifth seeded finalist will lose their ability to
play their own deck. That was a conscious decision since the
alternative would have been a six-player final. The additional rules
will make the final round long-enough. Adding another player didn't
seem like a great idea.

-Robert

Robert Goudie
V:EKN Storyline Director
vtesstory@white-wolf.com
Anonymous
September 7, 2005 8:03:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Peter D Bakija wrote:
> Pat wrote:
>
> > Really? You think people won't take the Ultimate Nergal Challenge? That's
> > the whole point of going as far as I'm concerned. :) 
>
> I think it is certainly possibe that some folks will pick Negral as first
> pick immediaely, just for the funny. But I also think it is perfectly
> possible that top seed will be be wanting to try and win with their deck, at
> which point someone else will likely want to be Negral for the spolier and
> the funny.

Yeah, I think it will depend on how attached each player is to their
chosen clan and how important a storyline win is to them.

-Robert

Robert Goudie
V:EKN Storyline Director
vtesstory@white-wolf.com
Anonymous
September 7, 2005 9:19:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

talonz wrote:

> Why is Nergal played only in the final round? I suspect this is due to
> the storyline? Its just that by the time I made the final, I'd like to
> stick with my deck all the way through. And the prelim rounds would be
> far more interesting if they were nergal games too, allowing someone to
> take a nergal deck all the way through the event.

I dunno--very much like the Infernal Plague event, this one is clearly light
hearted and funny/fun. Sure, if you get into the finals as first seed and
you are doing well, you probably *won't* want to be the Nergal deck, which
is why there is a pecking order. By default, 5th seed is Nergal (and 5th
seed, as bottom seed, is already the least likely to win--sure, nothing is
certain, but ya know, as 5th seed, you are least likely to win). If someone
else other than 5th seed *wants* to be Negral, they have the option, but
otherwise, it is given to 5th seed.

I'd guess that 1st seed (unless the 1st seed player is filled with superior
wacky-itdue, or WAC) isn't likely to pick Nergal. But 4th or 5th seed is
certainly likely to pick Nergal, as:

-Being 4th or 5th seed doesn't give you any seating choice in any case, just
like being Nergal.

-Being 4th or 5th seed, your original deck probably wasn't doing that well
in the first place (I don't know about the rest of y'all, but 5th seed in
local 2R+F events are often is filled by someone with a single VP or two who
wins the tie breaker), meaning you probably don't have much invested in your
initial deck.

-Getting to be Negral likely gives you the ability to play spoiler something
fierce--by taking Negral, yeah, you probably won't win, but you can also
probably make sure that, say, 1st seed doesn't win.

As for taking it through the whole tournament, that would require multiple
Negral decks instead of just 1 (if you get 20 people, you'd need 4 Negral
decks), and you'd need some system for determining who got to be Negral. As
it stands, the final round gets to be extra entertaining, which seems
perfectly reasonable to me.


Peter D Bakija
pdb6@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

"So in conclusion, our business plan is to sell hot,
easily spilled liquids to naked people."
-Brittni Meil
September 7, 2005 9:50:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Peter D Bakija" <pdb6@lightlink.com> wrote in message
news:BF44D1BB.21D41%pdb6@lightlink.com...
> talonz wrote:
>
>> Why is Nergal played only in the final round? I suspect this is due to
>> the storyline? Its just that by the time I made the final, I'd like to
>> stick with my deck all the way through. And the prelim rounds would be
>> far more interesting if they were nergal games too, allowing someone to
>> take a nergal deck all the way through the event.
>
> I dunno--very much like the Infernal Plague event, this one is clearly
> light
> hearted and funny/fun. Sure, if you get into the finals as first seed and
> you are doing well, you probably *won't* want to be the Nergal deck, which
> is why there is a pecking order. By default, 5th seed is Nergal (and 5th
> seed, as bottom seed, is already the least likely to win--sure, nothing is
> certain, but ya know, as 5th seed, you are least likely to win). If
> someone
> else other than 5th seed *wants* to be Negral, they have the option, but
> otherwise, it is given to 5th seed.
>
> I'd guess that 1st seed (unless the 1st seed player is filled with
> superior
> wacky-itdue, or WAC) isn't likely to pick Nergal. But 4th or 5th seed is
> certainly likely to pick Nergal, as:
>

Really? You think people won't take the Ultimate Nergal Challenge? That's
the whole point of going as far as I'm concerned. :) 

- Pat
Anonymous
September 7, 2005 10:48:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Pat wrote:

> Really? You think people won't take the Ultimate Nergal Challenge? That's
> the whole point of going as far as I'm concerned. :) 

I think it is certainly possibe that some folks will pick Negral as first
pick immediaely, just for the funny. But I also think it is perfectly
possible that top seed will be be wanting to try and win with their deck, at
which point someone else will likely want to be Negral for the spolier and
the funny.


Peter D Bakija
pdb6@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

"So in conclusion, our business plan is to sell hot,
easily spilled liquids to naked people."
-Brittni Meil
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 6:55:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Hi,

Robert Goudie wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> NERGAL VICTORY CONDITIONS
> ========================
> The Nergal deck wins if it is the last player standing. If the Nergal
> deck wins, its player may keep the Nergal deck. If the Nergal deck
> loses, the event's winner keeps the deck.

What happens if the time limit is reached when Nergal
and someone else are still standing?

I guess Nergal's victory condition is not met and the
winner is the "normal" player with most VPs?

What happens if everybody has 0.5 VP and the player
of the Nergal deck was top seeded?

....actually, one may ask many other questions of the same sort, so
I might as well ask for a general clarification about victory
conditions in the Storyline final when the time limit is reached... :-)

Thanks,
Emiliano
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 10:34:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Emiliano Imeroni wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Robert Goudie wrote:
> >
> <snip>
> >
> > NERGAL VICTORY CONDITIONS
> > ========================
> > The Nergal deck wins if it is the last player standing. If the Nergal
> > deck wins, its player may keep the Nergal deck. If the Nergal deck
> > loses, the event's winner keeps the deck.
>
> What happens if the time limit is reached when Nergal
> and someone else are still standing?
>
> I guess Nergal's victory condition is not met and the
> winner is the "normal" player with most VPs?

Correct.

> What happens if everybody has 0.5 VP and the player
> of the Nergal deck was top seeded?

The second seeded player would win based on the seeding tie-breaker.
Nergal's only victory condition is to be the last player standing.

Robert Goudie
V:EKN Storyline Director
vtesstory@white-wolf.com
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 10:52:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

By the way, maybe the question has already
been asked several times, and has been answered
somewhere (on the conclave list?), but since I don't
have access to the conclave and would like to
organize a storyline in Holland anyway...

....is it known how it is possible to get a
storyline kit?

Emiliano
future-ex-primogen of Utrecht :-)
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 11:36:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

And can one order multiple kits?We're thinking that while the FINAL
table is the only one that counts another table of the #6-10 seeds
could play a Nergal game also.

-tpl
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