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So... (cheating)

Last response: in Graphics & Displays
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May 15, 2003 4:43:31 PM

... everyone is bitching about nvidia potentially cheating. Wah. Let's go on the assumption that they are. So what? ATI is better? We already went around with ATI being caught cheating... so who cares. Both companies are cheats who want YOUR money. If you don't like the cheating go buy a tride...er nm... a matr... oh wait... how about a ... oh fuckk it. They all cheat. They try to make themselves look better than the competitor... its a fact of marketing. What's the old saying about statistics, "The more statistics someone shows you proving something the more you should question the proof."

Shadus

More about : cheating

May 15, 2003 5:02:37 PM

yeah , salesmen suck


cocknballs



i guess my IDIOTS thread was kinda dum. i was pissed tho..

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<A HREF="http://www.xgr.com" target="_new">XGR-Game Reviews</A>

"You change the channel, and you change our minds..." - System of a Down
May 15, 2003 5:26:13 PM

... heh... seems like this is making a big splash in just about every tech forum... I've been around to Rage3d, Sharky, and HardOCP... and man they are really battling it out..

...And all the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put my computer back together again...
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May 15, 2003 5:28:13 PM

haha

well, i should be sleeping right now cause i work in ...5 hours. been typing constantly for like 7 hours sinse i got off work...

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<A HREF="http://www.xgr.com" target="_new">XGR-Game Reviews</A>

"You change the channel, and you change our minds..." - System of a Down
May 15, 2003 6:38:28 PM

> yeah, salesmen suck

I think that says it all about every hardware/software vendor on earth :p 

Shadus
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
May 15, 2003 6:47:45 PM

You mind backing up Matrox cheating? Any specific examples?
Yeah the cards are far from the top wrung, but I haven't seen an instance of them cheating in benchmarks or lowering their phenominal quality to increase their benchmarking scores.

The main thing IS to make a stink every time we catch someone doing this be it ATI, NVIDIA, whomever! WHY? Because it's bad for the consumer who is trying to edjumakate him/herself. If competition is supposed to be good for the consumer, this is DEFINITELY Bad!
Who cares, everyone who plonks down their hard earned cash because it means that we lose the tools we need to help us make our choices. The thing we need here is consistancy. If you were buying a car based on mileage or horsepower, how would you like it if the figures were fudged? Would you call that cheating? The better business bureau probably would, and in that case you might see people sued/go to jail.

The point is that it's beyond just deceptive marketing, it's bordering on fraud. What ever happened to the 8 pixelpipe debate? people forgot it. Dumbing down the quality to scores higher, people said, oh it's just a small thing. The fact is even without this I think Nvidia has a better card in the 5900U (performance wise, still not sure of the design itself), yet they still felt that it wasn't good enough to compete, they had to try and clobber the ATI cards through 'trickery' whether it be willful or whether it be nudging people "try the 'tweaks', they're the best".

Ati was caught cheating in Q3 and they were roasted, and the 8500 did eventually reach the correct performance on the very next set of drivers 'without' cheating, but the thing is to make it unacceptable period. Or else forget any kind of objectivity when picking a card. Mine get's 4 milliong Bungholio marks, oh yead mine gets 300 trillion Snarkymarks. Yet they all play the games wonky because the cards have defects that the makers optimized around.

It just pisses me off no matter who does it!

Now, you were going to show me exactly when Matrox 'cheated'...

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red> :tongue: GA to SK
May 15, 2003 6:55:47 PM

I forget the exact card anymore it's been ages since matrox was relevent enough to have an installed cardbase that could discover the cheating :p  It was the first 3d card they offered OR it was the card following the Matrox Millenium II. I only remember because the MM2 was hands down one of the best 2d graphics cards available at the time(unbelieveable image quality) and I had one and was going to get the next card in the line up until it came out they were doing a major 'fudge' job with the numbers. This was prolly mid/early 90s... before voodoo2 days.

Shadus
May 15, 2003 8:13:03 PM

So lemme get this straight....

Ati cheats with the Quack incident, everybody jumps on Ati and flames the hell out them. Ati ADMITS they cheated, and removes the cheat without losing performance.

Let me remind you, ati cheated ONCE

Nvidia cheats once with thier NV30 line with the whole FP12-16 fiasco. Nvidia never admits to cheating, everybody else does, including futuremark

Everybody defends Nvidia with the bogus claim on how 3dmark is an invalid benchmark, when in fact that using the WHQL drivers, they lose scores in just about every banchmark/game

Nvidia cheats AGAIN with this incident, and they cheat on 3dmark, the benchmark they said was "invalid", and the benchmark to which everybody else said was invalid. Nvidia once again doesnt admit they are cheating

Everybody defends Nvidia saying 3dmark is invalid, the one benchmark everybody said they didnt care about just because Nvidia loses in them when compared apples to apples.

And around we go....
May 15, 2003 8:35:18 PM

Fact is this: Most companies cheat if they see a benefit of any variety.

My thought is this: Expect it. It's the norm. They're like politicians, they're going to tell you what they want you to hear and what is agreeable to the vast majority. This isn't the first, this isn't the last, and we'll all forget in a months time. Shrug.

Shadus
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
May 15, 2003 10:43:43 PM

Totally lame response, and belies your major bias.

Ummm, Everybody cheats, huh? Well ya' still haven't shown me EXACTLY when Matrox did it. So if someone steals from you it's ok to say" What? Everybody steals when given the chance." ?

Nah they cheated they got busted and hopefully they will get crucified enough to stop.

And if Nvidia and all their clan don't respect 3dmark then why cheat in it? Brutal!

You know you should be a defence lawyer, with arguments like that you might just bring back public hangings.

Nvidia cheated. Explain how that's good. And don't bother with the 'it doesn't matter' defence, because if it didn't they wouldn't have bothered to go through the effort in the first place.

Oh and yeah 3dmark ain't the be all and end all (although Nvidia respects it enough to cheat) but how else is anyone supposed to try and get objective info. Those numbnutz who come to you and ask stuff are simply being fed whatever bias you have towards the products (pro or con) and anybody who trust someone selling them something in a store is dumber than those who blindly follow benchmarks. At least the becnhmarks are supposed to be unbiased by design, which to me is the exact opposite of anyone in a store ('Hey bob what do we need to move out of inventory this week', Guess I'll be selling me some GFMXs this week).

I'll take a bunch of benchmarks and reviews over a bunch or retail folk any day.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red> :tongue: GA to SK
May 15, 2003 11:47:51 PM

agreed 100%

-=[ AHH PHUK IT. ]=-
May 16, 2003 12:29:19 AM

yeah like 20 times i think..... maybe 21

-=[ AHH PHUK IT. ]=-
May 16, 2003 1:02:00 AM

if you accept it as the norm, it will become the norm...

What I really can't understand is that people are upset with and don't understand the people who are upset about the cheating. I mean wtf? That's like the parents who complained to the schoolboard when a teacher failed a whole class of students she caught plagiarizing/cheating...

People have a right to be upset by dishonest companies
May 16, 2003 3:34:49 AM

Quote:
Fact is this: Most companies cheat if they see a benefit of any variety.



and so that justifies it?

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<A HREF="http://www.xgr.com" target="_new">XGR-Game Reviews</A>

"You change the channel, and you change our minds..." - System of a Down
May 16, 2003 3:59:22 AM

Hehe, I just put a joke from my friend here:
IF one get caught, it's called cheating;
IF one doesn't get caught, it's called optimisation.

It is morally wrong to allow suckers to keep their money
<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=22996" target="_new">My System Rig</A>
May 16, 2003 4:07:38 AM

lol yeah, theres a saying like that ... its only cheating if you get caught

well, NV got caught apparently.

-------

<A HREF="http://www.xgr.com" target="_new">XGR-Game Reviews</A>

"You change the channel, and you change our minds..." - System of a Down
May 16, 2003 5:04:53 AM

Yeah, well...nVidia doesn't seem to have mastered the whole "not-getting-caught" thing.


<font color=green>The Netherlands is where you go when you're too good for heaven.</font color=green> :tongue:
May 16, 2003 2:14:15 PM

Never claimed it was justified, I just claimed that they all do it and 10% of the population of computer buyers ain't going to change it. No matter what kinda stink they raise. So, I just accept it, expect it, and do as much research as possible to not get stung by it.

Shadus
May 16, 2003 2:18:32 PM

Don't get me wrong, I understand *WHY* they're upset, but I just see it as entirely pointless. It sucks. Shrug. When it comes down to it though, its commonplace and it's not going to be changing soon, its been done since the dawn of time and nothing is going to change it significantly anytime soon. So sorry.

Never claimed you don't have a right to be upset, it's just a waste of time though, because in a month, it's going to be illrelevent. Most people are herd animals... they follow what everyone else is doing, this is no differnt, the *honestly* upset people make up about 20% of the people who are bitching the other 80% are just people going along for the ride and who will tire of it fairly quickly and just forget change their mind whatever.

Shadus
May 16, 2003 2:19:15 PM

Yah well ya know, it's more fun to spam the whole frontpage of the graphics forum with pointless bullsh!t and arguements!

Shadus
May 16, 2003 3:00:32 PM

> Totally lame response, and belies your major bias.

Yah-- I'm biased towards apathy and doing comprehensive research when I'm dumping alot of cash. I didn't really care when ati did it, I don't care that nvidia did it. Whooptie.

> Ummm, Everybody cheats, huh? Well ya' still
> haven't shown me EXACTLY when Matrox did it.

and I'm not going to. I just remember it. Totally illrelevent it's ancient history, if its *THAT* important to *YOU* goto google and search for matrox benchmark cheat, I'm sure some schmoe still has a webpage about it somewhere. I just dont give enough of a flying [-peep-] to bother.

> So if someone steals from you it's ok to say"
> What? Everybody steals when given the chance." ?

Now you are mixing company morals with personal morals. Both fall under social morals but realistically you are personally responsible for the consequences of what your personal morals lead you into, you aren't usually personally responsible for the results of corporate morals if you are an executive, might loose a job at worst, unless you play bad games with the irs/sec. Apples to Potatoes.

> Nah they cheated they got busted and
> hopefully they will get crucified enough
> to stop.

Nice thoery, doesn't work. Lesee... nVidia stock was ~12.50 on Mar 6... now it's ~21. Woo. I bet over the next month the stock doesn't go down either... why? Because such a small percentage of people who get graphics cards even note this kinda [-peep-] that it's ILLRELEVENT.

> And if Nvidia and all their clan don't
> respect 3dmark then why cheat in it?
> Brutal!

Eh? I don't care if they respect it, I don't care who respects it. I don't care if ati and nvidia get togeather and gangbang it. Until there are several good dx9 games available to corelate and prove the benchmark is relelvent it's theoretical. No matter what it is synthetic. I can have 2000000 craptackularmarks or 20 craptackular marks and it means... nothing. It means my pc runs the benchmark at that speed. It doesn't mean it will run a real game at that speed... or that the programmers have bothered to optimize for my processor/graphics/whatever... Hell in a benchmark like 3dmark it doesn't even mean its programmed in the same style a real game programmer will use... its how it probally *should* be done in some cases, but overtime programming practices evolve. Shrug.

> You know you should be a defence lawyer,
> with arguments like that you might just
> bring back public hangings.

Yes, yes. Blah, blah, blah. Whatever. Ran out of good arguements so lets make it personal time neh? Cool.

> Nvidia cheated. Explain how that's good.

Never said it was good, infact if you read around abit I said it sucks, but it's something that happens quite frequently in any industry so get over it.

> And don't bother with the 'it doesn't matter'
> defence, because if it didn't they wouldn't
> have bothered to go through the effort in
> the first place.

That is quite potentially the worst arguement I have ever heard.

Somethings relevence to or lack of relevence to a situation has next to nothing to do with it's value. *IF* nvidia cheated (No proof yet-- but it wouldn't shock me, they have in the past.) I'm sure there was a reason, they wanted a higher benchmark to put on the box, they wanted to boost early adopter sales, they wanted to smack ati in the head, they wanted to show a massive difference instead of a moderate difference, one of the programmers got ambitious, marketing asked for an increase, I don't know why or even if it was intentional and I don't give a flying sh!t one way or the other. It's not relevent if you aren't using a single benchmark as your sole way of evaluating the piece of hardware. If you are using a single benchmark to evaluate the hardware then you're a dumbass and you deserve whatever kinda of marketing bullsh!t gets dumped on you.

> Oh and yeah 3dmark ain't the be all
> and end all (although Nvidia respects
> it enough to cheat) but how else is
> anyone supposed to try and get objective
> info.

Respect and cheating aren't analogyous<sp?>. Totally unrelated. Try looking at the frame rates it gets in games perhaps? Image quality? How about real world applications rather than some made up pretend number that has no real relevence?

> Those numbnutz who come to you and
> ask stuff are simply being fed whatever
> bias you have towards the products (pro
> or con)

Nod. Every person who sells computers does the same thing. They have prefered hardware/software. It's a personal experience thing, the things that work and the things that don't work... the things that perform and the things that don't. I look at more reviews, previews, and such than any sane person ever should (though that might explain alot...), but that doesn't mean I automagically accept things as they are shown. It doesn't mean I don't build a system and pop the stuff in and see how things function in the real world. An hour on a pc with the pieces of the real hardware in it is worth much more than any twenty reviews you read.

> and anybody who trust someone
> selling them something in a store is
> dumber than those who blindly follow
> benchmarks.

Exactly. No arguement there.

> At least the becnhmarks
> are supposed to be unbiased by design,

They are to some degree, but by being unbiased they are also not reflective of reality. Most all games are biased towards a particular hardware platform (intel/amd) and frequently will perform significantly better on a particular graphics chipset than another (nvidia/amd)... so synthetic benchmarks aren't really indicitive of real world performance.. neh?

> which to me is the exact opposite of
> anyone in a store ('Hey bob what do
> we need to move out of inventory this
> week', Guess I'll be selling me some
> GFMXs this week).

Nod, pretty much. That's why I buy things no more than 5 at a time... I don't want something like that to happen to the people I sell pcs to.

> I'll take a bunch of benchmarks and
> reviews over a bunch or retail folk
> any day.

Oh I agree, anything is better than the retail bullsh!t... but 3dmark for me is just a bullsh!t number too. If you want to know anything *real* about a card look at how it runs *GAME* benchmarks, real world apps, no something theoretical and synthetic. That's more or a less my whole point.

Shadus
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
May 17, 2003 12:26:22 AM

Quote:
and I'm not going to. I just remember it. Totally illrelevent it's ancient history, if its *THAT* important to *YOU* goto google and search for matrox benchmark cheat

Well then no one can trust ANYTHING you say. If you want to spew garbage then back it up. You could just as easily do a google search and prove your statement. So basically everything you post is BS unless you can prove otherwise. I'm pretty good at google searches, just ask anyone here who's asked for a 'rare' comparison like the 8500LE vs 9100 search. The thing is it's YOUR job to prove YOUR statement. So do it, or elese don't post truely 'irrelevant' personal 'theories', especially when trying to defend your previous position with them.

As for stock price proving anything about their abilibites, abolute BS. First Nvidia makes more than just graphics cards, second, their stocks are down over 52 weeks, which using your flawed logic means that the GF4 is a MUCH better card than the FX5900Ultra, heck even the GF3 series was much better, because their stockprice was higher. Just plain Ignorant!

As for the rest of your Nvidia PR, it's laughable: 'I don't care if they respect it..' well that's the whole point. You argue they should use a game, but explain to me how the Q3 fiasco is any different. Any standardized gaming benchmarks has the EXACT same exploitable characteristics, which means you can cheat in them as well. The fact is Nvidia realized (which you haven't yet) that this IS the preeminent card test simply because it DOES put things in there that won't appear in other games for a LONG time, and some of whihc may never appear, the whole point is to try and stress the cards, not get good frames, unlike most games. The thing you don't seem to get (and I'm not going to spend 30 minutes explaing to you when you can read this whole debate from when 3Dmark03 first came out) is that games ARE optimized, and they don't show how good a card is EXCEPT in that games. UT2K3 and Q3 marks mean nothing compared to Splinter Cell (yes I know Eden), Aquanox and such, the whole point is to AVOID optimizations as the only test, since a BETTER card could preform much worse simply because of the favouratism of the optimizations. When the R8500 first came out it was hampered by its' driver, but then turned out to be a much better card than the Nvidia direct competitor, but not untl 6+mths. The same goes for a game, Games should be optimized EQUALLY to allow for ALL cards to play at their best. And with ATI getting more marketshare, that is more likely to happen all the time.

Simply put, once again; Nvidia Cheated (knowingly or not)and that's NOT good.

If you can explain how that BENIFITS the consumer go ahead, otherwise forget the tripe of 'We'll I don't care', because despite what you may think, this forum isn't just about you or me, it's about what's best for all of us, even the Noobs. And this is NOT in our best interest!


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red> :tongue: GA to SK
!