Infernal Plague: Return of Nergal - Rules Update

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It was pointed out to me that the mention of the rules update was
burried deep in another thread and could benefit from its own
announcement. So here you go:

The Nergal storyline deck wasn't meant to be unbeatable, but it also
wasn't designed to be able to take on opponents who've modified their
decks after reading the Nergal deck contents. However, due to our
decision to release the Nergal deck contents, we thought it might be
wise to plug a few of the more obvious holes in the deck.

The revised rules are at:

http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/?line=news&articleid=289

The relevant changes are to the banned list (Seeds of Corruption is now
banned) and a special rule that allows Nergal can burn a card on him
during his untap.

-Robert

Robert Goudie
V:EKN Storyline Director
vtesstory@white-wolf.com

 

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Robert Goudie <robertg@vtesinla.org> wrote:

> The relevant changes are to the banned list (Seeds of Corruption is now
> banned) and a special rule that allows Nergal can burn a card on him
> during his untap.

One clarification is needed:
Does this new rule allow Nergal's controller to burn a Brainwash on an
uncontrolled Nergal?

 

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Jozxyqk wrote:
> Robert Goudie <robertg@vtesinla.org> wrote:
>
> > The relevant changes are to the banned list (Seeds of Corruption is now
> > banned) and a special rule that allows Nergal can burn a card on him
> > during his untap.
>
> One clarification is needed:
> Does this new rule allow Nergal's controller to burn a Brainwash on an
> uncontrolled Nergal?

No.

"During his or her untap phase, Nergal's controller may burn a card
played by any other Methuselah on Nergal."

The text "Nergal's controller" is meaningless when Nergal is
uncontrolled.

-Robert

Robert Goudie
V:EKN Storyline Director
vtesstory@white-wolf.com

 

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Robert Goudie wrote:
> It was pointed out to me that the mention of the rules update was
> burried deep in another thread and could benefit from its own
> announcement. So here you go:
>
> The Nergal storyline deck wasn't meant to be unbeatable, but it also
> wasn't designed to be able to take on opponents who've modified their
> decks after reading the Nergal deck contents. However, due to our
> decision to release the Nergal deck contents, we thought it might be
> wise to plug a few of the more obvious holes in the deck.
>
> The revised rules are at:
>
> http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/?line=news&articleid=289
>
> The relevant changes are to the banned list (Seeds of Corruption is now
> banned) and a special rule that allows Nergal can burn a card on him
> during his untap.
>
> -Robert
>
> Robert Goudie
> V:EKN Storyline Director
> vtesstory@white-wolf.com

I don't recall if this was answered in another thread but I can't be
bothered to look.

If Nergal wins, what clan is tallied for the win? I hope that it's the
player's original clan choice. Baali have an automatic bid for every
final otherwise, and some 5th place players may be stuck playing for a
team they don't want to win (which could affect their in-game play).

Thanks,

Jeff

 

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jeffk...@pacbell.net wrote:

> I don't recall if this was answered in another thread but I can't be
> bothered to look.
>
> If Nergal wins, what clan is tallied for the win? I hope that it's the
> player's original clan choice.

Not the original clan choice. Baali will have their own running total
for players that intend to play that clan as their storyline clan. Any
Nergal deck victories will not count toward the Baali victories.

> Baali have an automatic bid for every final otherwise,
> and some 5th place players may be stuck playing for a
> team they don't want to win (which could affect their in-game play).

The Baali will not get free chances for wins in the overall clan tally.


Robert Goudie
V:EKN Storyline Director
vtesstory@white-wolf.com

 

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Sten During wrote:
> Robert Goudie wrote:
>
> > No.
> >
> > "During his or her untap phase, Nergal's controller may burn a card
> > played by any other Methuselah on Nergal."
> >
> > The text "Nergal's controller" is meaningless when Nergal is
> > uncontrolled.
> >
>
> Does that mean that any special effects regarding Nergal are voided
> should something nasty happen to Nergal while he is uncontrolled?

Without text to override the normal function, a vampire's special
abilities aren't relevant while uncontrolled.

Robert Goudie
V:EKN Storyline Director
vtesstory@white-wolf.com

 

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Robert Goudie wrote:
> jeffk...@pacbell.net wrote:
>
> > I don't recall if this was answered in another thread but I can't be
> > bothered to look.
> >
> > If Nergal wins, what clan is tallied for the win? I hope that it's the
> > player's original clan choice.
>
> Not the original clan choice. Baali will have their own running total
> for players that intend to play that clan as their storyline clan. Any
> Nergal deck victories will not count toward the Baali victories.

So I'm confused here. My "original clan choice" is Assamites. I kick
butt with OBF/dom cheese featuring Badr, but Nergal corrupts me and I
choose to play that deck in the finals, where I get lucky and win. Clan
Assamite gets the win for that storyline, yes? Thx.

Jeff

 

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> > > I don't recall if this was answered in another thread but I can't be
> > > bothered to look.

It was, and you should have been.


> > > If Nergal wins, what clan is tallied for the win? I hope that it's the
> > > player's original clan choice.
> >
> > Not the original clan choice. Baali will have their own running total
> > for players that intend to play that clan as their storyline clan. Any
> > Nergal deck victories will not count toward the Baali victories.
>
> So I'm confused here. My "original clan choice" is Assamites. I kick
> butt with OBF/dom cheese featuring Badr, but Nergal corrupts me and I
> choose to play that deck in the finals, where I get lucky and win. Clan
> Assamite gets the win for that storyline, yes? Thx.

No, Assamite doesn't get the win if you switch to the Nergal deck.

If Nergal wins the final game, "Nergal" is the winning clan (separate
from Baali) - if Nergal wins the storyline overall, the Baali will get
a reward, but Nergal wins do not add with Baali wins towards that - in
order for the Baali to get a reward, either Nergal needs to win the
most, or non-nergal Baali decks need to get the most wins.

> Jeff

-John Flournoy

 

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Robert Goudie wrote:

> No.
>
> "During his or her untap phase, Nergal's controller may burn a card
> played by any other Methuselah on Nergal."
>
> The text "Nergal's controller" is meaningless when Nergal is
> uncontrolled.
>

Does that mean that any special effects regarding Nergal are voided
should something nasty happen to Nergal while he is uncontrolled?

Sten During

 

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John Flournoy wrote:
> > > > I don't recall if this was answered in another thread but I can't be
> > > > bothered to look.
>
> It was, and you should have been.
>
>
> > > > If Nergal wins, what clan is tallied for the win? I hope that it's the
> > > > player's original clan choice.
> > >
> > > Not the original clan choice. Baali will have their own running total
> > > for players that intend to play that clan as their storyline clan. Any
> > > Nergal deck victories will not count toward the Baali victories.
> >
> > So I'm confused here. My "original clan choice" is Assamites. I kick
> > butt with OBF/dom cheese featuring Badr, but Nergal corrupts me and I
> > choose to play that deck in the finals, where I get lucky and win. Clan
> > Assamite gets the win for that storyline, yes? Thx.
>
> No, Assamite doesn't get the win if you switch to the Nergal deck.
>
> If Nergal wins the final game, "Nergal" is the winning clan (separate
> from Baali) - if Nergal wins the storyline overall, the Baali will get
> a reward, but Nergal wins do not add with Baali wins towards that - in
> order for the Baali to get a reward, either Nergal needs to win the
> most, or non-nergal Baali decks need to get the most wins.
>
> > Jeff
>
> -John Flournoy

Ok then. So I sneak into the finals in 5th place and get stuck with the
Nergal deck so I can't play for Clan Assamite any more. One of the
other finalists happens to be playing Assamites. I throw the table to
him with all the power Nergal can muster, "playing to win" of course.
And of course, he gives me the Nergal deck because that was our
in-finals deal.

How is this a good thing? I didn't want to play Nergal, but got stuck
with it. Why should I be motivated at all? This is my big problem with
the format as is. What if 5th place players could choose to have Nergal
play for their original clan? This would guarantee Nergal would fight
to the finish in every game.

Right now, Nergal is guaranteed a chance to be represented at every
final table. In the above scenario, the 5th place Meth could opt to
play the Nergal deck, but have Nergal champion another clan--say
Assamites.

I suppose if the organizers think that the Nergal deck itself is enough
of an incentive to win, then so be it. But I know that there are lots
of players who are completely dedicated to any of a handful of underdog
clans that wouldn't want to waste any chance at victory for the greater
long-term good of their favorites.

Jeff

 

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jeffkuta@pacbell.net wrote:

> I suppose if the organizers think that the Nergal deck itself is enough
> of an incentive to win, then so be it. But I know that there are lots
> of players who are completely dedicated to any of a handful of underdog
> clans that wouldn't want to waste any chance at victory for the greater
> long-term good of their favorites.

Then those people should try to not be 5th entering the finals,
obviously.

It's not substantially different than saying 'then don't come in 6th'
in previous storylines; except this time the threshhold to be assured
to have a chance to win for your clan is one place higher.

And besides, if you do finish 5th and can't play your clan? You get to
try to prevent anybody ELSE from scoring a win for their clan, too. Go
nuts, try to win with Nergal and stop the guys who brought better decks
than you from claiming the prize you were denied!

Yes, it's possible someone could go 'wow, I got shafted, so I'll just
play Nergal and throw the game to my favorite (doable) and/or
duplicated-in-the-finals (much less likely) clan' - but y'know, lots of
people would consider that to be even worse than going 'I got shafted,
so I'll just transfer out and go home', something that many players
already disdain.

> Jeff

-John Flournoy

 

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jeffkuta@pacbell.net wrote:
> Ok then. So I sneak into the finals in 5th place and get stuck with the
> Nergal deck so I can't play for Clan Assamite any more. One of the
> other finalists happens to be playing Assamites. I throw the table to
> him with all the power Nergal can muster, "playing to win" of course.

Maybe you've got some cool jedi mind trick stuff going on but I don't
see how mumbing the words "playing to win" as you blatantly play to
lose will turn your judge into a fool, but I guess YMMV.

> And of course, he gives me the Nergal deck because that was our
> in-finals deal.
>
> How is this a good thing? I didn't want to play Nergal, but got stuck
> with it. Why should I be motivated at all? This is my big problem with
> the format as is. What if 5th place players could choose to have Nergal
> play for their original clan? This would guarantee Nergal would fight
> to the finish in every game.

Note that playing to help your favorite clan win (at a cost of cheating
and not playing to win) can be a factor at any storyline event--past,
present or future.

> I suppose if the organizers think that the Nergal deck itself is enough
> of an incentive to win, then so be it.

As has been expressed in this forum, there seem to be a number of
people of that opinion. I realize that it won't be everybody.

> But I know that there are lots of players who are completely
> dedicated to any of a handful of underdog clans that wouldn't
> want to waste any chance at victory for the greater
> long-term good of their favorites.

I understand. Makes sense that they are dedicated to their favorite
clans. And I also realize that some players will not be terribly
motivated to play once they've lost the opportunity to play for their
favorite clan. But, like in other storyline events, we don't just sit
down and attack our least favorite clans or the clans currently leading
the overall win tally. Nor do we abandon playing to win in throw games
in favor of another player playing our same clan just because they need
one more GW to get into the finals. I'm not really seeing how this
event is fundamentally different than other storyline events. Like
before, we're throwing conflicting rewards at our players. We say "play
to win" but then we also say "play to help your clan". That will, of
course, get really messy if players take the whole thing too seriously.


Probably the best perspective to have is to think of this event as
having a 4-player final round. If you don't finish in the top 4 then
you aren't playing for your clan anymore. You're out!

-Robert

Robert Goudie
V:EKN Storyline Director
vtesstory@white-wolf.com

 

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Robert Goudie wrote:
> jeffkuta@pacbell.net wrote:
>
> Probably the best perspective to have is to think of this event as
> having a 4-player final round. If you don't finish in the top 4 then
> you aren't playing for your clan anymore. You're out!
>
> -Robert
>
> Robert Goudie
> V:EKN Storyline Director
> vtesstory@white-wolf.com

Ok. I can accept this perspective and Nergal's potential king-maker
role. If you can't win, take everyone else down kicking and screaming
with you.

Jeff

 

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Daneel wrote:
>
> Not to be hairsplitting or something, but I actually think that one of
> the rewards of a Storyline tournament is the "point" scored for your
> clan.

Sure.

> Sure, it's nothing tangible, but it is still something you can
> "win". And since the prizes are part of the final table, it can be
> argued that for the player whose main motivation is to score a point
> for his favourite clan, handing over the game to the player who
> represents that clan is actually claiming the greatest prize the
> event could offer...

The tournament rules don't allow you to determine for yourself what you
feel is the the greatest reward the event could offer you and then have
you play toward that goal. Instead, the tournament rules require you to
play toward the prescribed goal-the Game Win.

Robert Goudie
V:EKN Storyline Director
vtesstory@white-wolf.com

 

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Jozxyqk wrote:
> Robert Goudie <robertg@vtesinla.org> wrote:
>
> [some stuff]
>
> Rob, I thought you had said in a previous thread, that the Storyline
> Questionnaire was going to include a line about "What clan was being
> played by the player who ended up with Nergal?"

Yes, that has not changed.

> Personally, what I'd like to see is simply a nod to the
> most-played-clan-by-players-who-played-Nergal-in-the-finals, somewhere
> in the epilogue fiction, or in the flavor text on Nergal's reward card
> should Nergal win the most Storylines, or something.

That's one of those types of questions we'll ask on the Questionnaire
and then we'll take all of the responses and see what we can do with
them. I'd rather not commit to a specific reward of, for example,
flavor text on a reward card. Rewards can get tricky and I'd hate to
see us do things like modify a reward card's text so that there'd be
room for flavor text just because we promised flavor text.

I'll try to get as much of what happens at the events into the
storyline/flavor texts, and so on, as possible.

Robert Goudie
V:EKN Storyline Director
vtesstory@white-wolf.com

 

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Peter D Bakija wrote:
> Daneel wrote:
>
> > I think only the player who *won* with the Nergal deck gets to keep it.
> > If someone else wins, the organiser retains the deck.
>
> No--whoever wins the tournament gets the Nergal deck.
>
> > Okay, I'm not trying to obfuscate the issue or something, but playing
> > the Nergal deck in the finals is supposed to be the *big* thing here.
> > You can most likely play in any number of tournaments with any number
> > of decks, but you only get one shot *ever* (er, per storyline
> > tournament ) to play the Nergal deck legally at a tournament.
>
> Yeah, I'm completely at a loss here (well, ok, not really--this is the
> interweb...) as to how and why everyone is trying to min-max the Nergal
> rules and criticizing the potential that they might be forced to be the
> Nergal deck.
>
> This is a "fun" event--the whole purpose of the storyline tournament is that
> it is a one off, goofy lark. Maybe the format is broken. Maybe the Nergal
> deck has zero chance of winnng. So what? The whole purpose of it being a
> goofy, non sanctioned event is that it is funny. Maybe it will work. Maybe
> not. But it'll likely be entertaining.
>
>
> Peter D Bakija
> pdb6@lightlink.com
> http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6
>
> "So in conclusion, our business plan is to sell hot,
> easily spilled liquids to naked people."
> -Brittni Meil

It's new, exciting, fun, and therefore folks want to dissect the
format, which is in itself fun to some.

Jeff

 

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Robert Goudie <robertg@vtesinla.org> wrote:

[some stuff]

Rob, I thought you had said in a previous thread, that the Storyline
Questionnaire was going to include a line about "What clan was being
played by the player who ended up with Nergal?"

Personally, what I'd like to see is simply a nod to the
most-played-clan-by-players-who-played-Nergal-in-the-finals, somewhere
in the epilogue fiction, or in the flavor text on Nergal's reward card
should Nergal win the most Storylines, or something.

The issue here is that there are two Goofy Goals going on at this
tournament at once, that each player has to think about: 1) getting a
cookie (or at least a crumb) for your clan, and 2) seeing/playing
the Nergal deck in the finals.
I don't think that players should be forced to pick one of these two
goals. They should be able to get a little from column A, a little from
column B.

And I'm not just talking about the player who is "screwed into playing
Nergal". I'm also talking about the players who *choose* to play the
Nergal deck as well; just an acknowledgement of the original clan would
be nice.

Josh
who probably won't make the finals in the first place

 

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jeffkuta@pacbell.net wrote:

> It's new, exciting, fun, and therefore folks want to dissect the
> format, which is in itself fun to some.

Oh, sure--I totally understand the disection. I'm just kind of lost by the
people who seem, like, overly critical of aspects of the event. Analysis is
completely reasonable.


Peter D Bakija
pdb6@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

"So in conclusion, our business plan is to sell hot,
easily spilled liquids to naked people."
-Brittni Meil

 

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On 15 Sep 2005 11:21:36 -0700, <jeffkuta@pacbell.net> wrote:

> Ok then. So I sneak into the finals in 5th place and get stuck with the
> Nergal deck so I can't play for Clan Assamite any more. One of the
> other finalists happens to be playing Assamites. I throw the table to
> him with all the power Nergal can muster, "playing to win" of course.
> And of course, he gives me the Nergal deck because that was our
> in-finals deal.

I think only the player who *won* with the Nergal deck gets to keep it.
If someone else wins, the organiser retains the deck.

> How is this a good thing? I didn't want to play Nergal, but got stuck
> with it. Why should I be motivated at all? This is my big problem with
> the format as is. What if 5th place players could choose to have Nergal
> play for their original clan? This would guarantee Nergal would fight
> to the finish in every game.

Okay, I'm not trying to obfuscate the issue or something, but playing
the Nergal deck in the finals is supposed to be the *big* thing here.
You can most likely play in any number of tournaments with any number
of decks, but you only get one shot *ever* (er, per storyline
tournament ) to play the Nergal deck legally at a tournament.

This sort of VTES delicacy should probably be the prime attraction for
this tournament. Of course, whether this will inspire players to select
decks based more on perceived competitive strength as opposed to clan
affiliation is yet to be seen.

I mean, the whole storyline concept is a bit controversial, if you
ask me. The clan that wins the most gets the boost? It should be the
clan that got played *most* and won the *least* (as that is the clan
most people like the most, but fail to win regularly with).

Of course, whether the sort of tournament behaviour inspired by such a
rule would be considered beneficial or not is a completely different
issue.

--
Bye,

Daneel

 

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Daneel wrote:

> I think only the player who *won* with the Nergal deck gets to keep it.
> If someone else wins, the organiser retains the deck.

No--whoever wins the tournament gets the Nergal deck.

> Okay, I'm not trying to obfuscate the issue or something, but playing
> the Nergal deck in the finals is supposed to be the *big* thing here.
> You can most likely play in any number of tournaments with any number
> of decks, but you only get one shot *ever* (er, per storyline
> tournament ) to play the Nergal deck legally at a tournament.

Yeah, I'm completely at a loss here (well, ok, not really--this is the
interweb...) as to how and why everyone is trying to min-max the Nergal
rules and criticizing the potential that they might be forced to be the
Nergal deck.

This is a "fun" event--the whole purpose of the storyline tournament is that
it is a one off, goofy lark. Maybe the format is broken. Maybe the Nergal
deck has zero chance of winnng. So what? The whole purpose of it being a
goofy, non sanctioned event is that it is funny. Maybe it will work. Maybe
not. But it'll likely be entertaining.


Peter D Bakija
pdb6@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

"So in conclusion, our business plan is to sell hot,
easily spilled liquids to naked people."
-Brittni Meil

 

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On 15 Sep 2005 12:09:09 -0700, Robert Goudie <robertg@vtesinla.org> wrote:

> jeffkuta@pacbell.net wrote:
>> Ok then. So I sneak into the finals in 5th place and get stuck with the
>> Nergal deck so I can't play for Clan Assamite any more. One of the
>> other finalists happens to be playing Assamites. I throw the table to
>> him with all the power Nergal can muster, "playing to win" of course.
>
> Maybe you've got some cool jedi mind trick stuff going on but I don't
> see how mumbing the words "playing to win" as you blatantly play to
> lose will turn your judge into a fool, but I guess YMMV.

Not to be hairsplitting or something, but I actually think that one of
the rewards of a Storyline tournament is the "point" scored for your
clan. Sure, it's nothing tangible, but it is still something you can
"win". And since the prizes are part of the final table, it can be
argued that for the player whose main motivation is to score a point
for his favourite clan, handing over the game to the player who
represents that clan is actually claiming the greatest prize the
event could offer...

--
Bye,

Daneel

 

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Frederick Scott wrote:

> I think you're making a lot of assumptions about this. For one thing, I
> don't agree that it is "virtually impossible for Nergal to win" - not by
> a long shot. He may have a potentially challenging position but a lot
> depends on how the other players choose to pursue victory.

Sure. But from the get go, there is nothing preventing everyone else at the
table from just demolishing him from turn 1. It is going to take finageling
and deal making to simply not get ousted immediately. Someone might win with
Negral, sure, but I suspect more often than not, any Negral wins will be the
result of accident rather than by design.


Peter D Bakija
pdb6@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

"So in conclusion, our business plan is to sell hot,
easily spilled liquids to naked people."
-Brittni Meil

 

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"Peter D Bakija" <pdb6@lightlink.com> wrote in message
news:BF4F7CAD.21F7A%pdb6@lightlink.com...
> Frederick Scott wrote:
>
>> I think you're making a lot of assumptions about this. For one thing, I
>> don't agree that it is "virtually impossible for Nergal to win" - not by
>> a long shot. He may have a potentially challenging position but a lot
>> depends on how the other players choose to pursue victory.
>
> Sure. But from the get go, there is nothing preventing everyone else at the
> table from just demolishing him from turn 1.

True. But whether that will actually happen doesn't strike me as a sure
thing.

> It is going to take finageling
> and deal making to simply not get ousted immediately.

Not necessarily. Some opponents might not be inclined to join the coalition
against Nergal right away or they may not be inclined to join it whole-
heartedly - which in turn might cause other non-Nergal players to back
off a bit and make it even shakier. Personalities, decks, metagame,
opening draws, lots of different stuff will affect this. It doesn't
necessarily require the Nergal player be a total Metternich to succeed.

> Someone might win with
> Negral, sure, but I suspect more often than not, any Negral wins will be the
> result of accident rather than by design.

Heh! I think a *lot* of wins are a result of accident rather than by design.

Fred, both past victim and past beneficiary of the "Paul Johnson" factor...

 

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Frederick Scott wrote:

> True. But whether that will actually happen doesn't strike me as a sure
> thing.

Oh, it certainly isn't a sure thing. But that it is an obvious starting
point means that the person who is playing Negral is going to have to start
the game trying to broker deals just to stay alive, let alone win.

> Not necessarily. Some opponents might not be inclined to join the coalition
> against Nergal right away or they may not be inclined to join it whole-
> heartedly - which in turn might cause other non-Nergal players to back
> off a bit and make it even shakier. Personalities, decks, metagame,
> opening draws, lots of different stuff will affect this. It doesn't
> necessarily require the Nergal player be a total Metternich to succeed.

Sure. But I suspect--this might be complete crack smoking here--that Negral
isn't going to win much. 'Cause the position is "lost" when you sit down in
the seat. Sure, you might change the position through cleverness and/or
treachery and/or luck, but sitting in a position of being very difficult to
win, being uniquely vulnerable to everyone at the table, and uniquely
capable of playing spoiler, you are fighting a very uphill fight.

> Heh! I think a *lot* of wins are a result of accident rather than by design.

True. But I think this one will be even more so.


Peter D Bakija
pdb6@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

"So in conclusion, our business plan is to sell hot,
easily spilled liquids to naked people."
-Brittni Meil

 

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Peter D Bakija wrote:
> Frederick Scott wrote:
>
>
>>I think you're making a lot of assumptions about this. For one thing, I
>>don't agree that it is "virtually impossible for Nergal to win" - not by
>>a long shot. He may have a potentially challenging position but a lot
>>depends on how the other players choose to pursue victory.
>
>
> Sure. But from the get go, there is nothing preventing everyone else at the
> table from just demolishing him from turn 1. It is going to take finageling
> and deal making to simply not get ousted immediately. Someone might win with
> Negral, sure, but I suspect more often than not, any Negral wins will be the
> result of accident rather than by design.
>

Think it depends on the local metagame. Should be several places where
the decks best suited to handle Nergal are totally unsuited to get to
the final table in the first place.

Sten During