Clans at storyline tournament

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Hi,

I am planning on going to my local Nergal storyline tournament, but
have never been to one before - I see that your crypt has to be 75%
vampires of the same clan. Can you choose your 'clan' to be Caitiff
for this purpose? What about Pander? I couldn't find anything about
this on the WW website. Cheers in advance.

PWillis

 

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PWillis wrote:
Can you choose your 'clan' to be Caitiff
> for this purpose? What about Pander?

Well, I'm pretty certain that there's a good reason why Caitiff and
Pander have their own symbols. My answer to your question would be yes.


I'd like to see either the Caitiff or Pander win a storyline, but I
don't have the faintest idea how to get such a deck to work.

Eric
Gangrel follower

 

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Thx, Caitiff would've been preferable but I'll see what I can do with
the Pander.

 

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I've only been to two tournaments before and one of those was limited
rather than constructed, so I would really appreciate any comments on
the deck that more experienced players may have.

"T3h D3mons33d 3lit3" (so named after the Sabbat expansion Computer
Hacking flavour text)

Crypt (groups 2 and 3):
75% Pander:
Lena Rowe (3 - obf)
Mitchell, the Headhunter (2)
Gillian Krader (2)
Christine Boscacci (2)
March Halcyon (1)
Angela Decker (1)
Basil (1 - obf)
Huang, Blood Cultist (1)
Feo Ramos (1)
25% Caitiff:
Antoinette DuChamp (1)
Julius (1)
Franciscus (1)

Library (90 cards)
Actions:
20 Computer Hacking

Action Modifiers:
4 Faceless Night
10 Swallowed by the Night
10 Cloak the Gathering

Combat:
5 Fake Out
5 Dodge
5 Behind You!

Equipment:
5 Leather Jacket
3 Incriminating Videotape (not sure about these)
6 Laptop Computer

Retainers:
1 J.S. Simmons Esq.
1 Tasha Morgan

Masters:
1 The Barrens
8 Obfuscate (perhaps not enough?)
2 Information Highway
1 The Parthenon
2 Heidelburg Castle, Germany (to double up laptop/videotape)

I know it's probably not the most original deck in the world, but I
would be grateful for thoughts.

PWillis

 

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PWillis wrote:
> Crypt (groups 2 and 3):
> 75% Pander:
> Lena Rowe (3 - obf)
> Mitchell, the Headhunter (2)
> Gillian Krader (2)
> Christine Boscacci (2)
> March Halcyon (1)
> Angela Decker (1)
> Basil (1 - obf)
> Huang, Blood Cultist (1)
> Feo Ramos (1)
> 25% Caitiff:
> Antoinette DuChamp (1)
> Julius (1)
> Franciscus (1)

I might try and maximize Presence instead of Obfuscate (which I'll
explain below), and for the extra three, use Antionette, Delihla
Easton, and Fredrick the Weak.

> Library (90 cards)
> Actions:
> 20 Computer Hacking

Yeah. That.

> Action Modifiers:
> 4 Faceless Night
> 10 Swallowed by the Night
> 10 Cloak the Gathering

I'm thinking there isn't enough actual obfusctae in the deck, and
relying on skill cards often results in you getting killed. I'd
probably go with skillless/Presence instead (as you can make the crypt
to, like, half the guys have presence already) and use, say, cards that
tap minions (Anarch Troublemaker, Misdirection, Mind Numb), a few bleed
increasers (Aire of Elation), and maybe some Majesties.

> Combat:
> 5 Fake Out
> 5 Dodge
> 5 Behind You!

See: Presence angle.

> Equipment:
> 5 Leather Jacket
> 3 Incriminating Videotape (not sure about these)
> 6 Laptop Computer

Laptops aren't worth it. Turn them into hackings. Incriminating Video
Tapes aren't worth it. Turn into hackings.

> Retainers:
> 1 J.S. Simmons Esq.
> 1 Tasha Morgan

Not worth it. It just gives your opponent's something special to block.

> Masters:
> 1 The Barrens
> 8 Obfuscate (perhaps not enough?)
> 2 Information Highway
> 1 The Parthenon
> 2 Heidelburg Castle, Germany (to double up laptop/videotape)

If you are going with the Obfuscate angle, use 12 Obf cards. If you go
with presence, 8 is probably enough. You want 4-5 Info Highways. 1
Parthenon is too fringe. You don't want Heidelburg, as you don't want
to have equipment. You might actually want Gird Minions in here.

> I know it's probably not the most original deck in the world, but I
> would be grateful for thoughts.

Well, to throw in where Derek left off--yeah, no one is going to like
you if you play this deck. And it is probably not really going to
actually do all that well. Generally, these decks (i.e. Caitif Computer
Hacking) do a really good job of ousting their first prey (i.e., if
they take a single action, it means you got a bad draw), but as soon as
everyone at the table figures out what you are doing, they will all
likely do everything in their power to stop you, even cross table
(including Rushing your guys and hitting you with KRC vote damage), and
you'll probably not get real far after that (especially as while you
are relentlessly polowing under your prey, your grand prey has no
pressure on him and he gets quite set up, and when you get to him, he
is ready for you).

I mean, like, sometimes they can be very effective, but most folks,
especially at something like a goofy storyline event, are likely to be
negatively disposed to someone playing such a deck. Not to say that you
shouldn't if you really want to, but realize that it might make you
very unpopular.

-Peter

 

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There are some nasty Gehenna events that I use on my caitiff/pander
deck, such as Blood Weakens, Conquest of Humanity, The Slow Withering,
Veil of Darkness and Wormwood, not to mention the always funny (but not
necessarily useful) Fall of the Camarilla and Sabbat. Maybe you should
take a look at these.

Have fun

Fabio Ciccone
http://storylinesp.vai.la

 

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PWillis wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am planning on going to my local Nergal storyline tournament, but
> have never been to one before - I see that your crypt has to be 75%
> vampires of the same clan. Can you choose your 'clan' to be Caitiff
> for this purpose? What about Pander? I couldn't find anything about
> this on the WW website. Cheers in advance.

"Caitiff" is not a clan, so no.
Pander is OK.

--
LSJ (vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

 

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Wow,

I hadn't really expected that kind of response - thanks for the
warnings. I must admit that I play a lot more Magic than I do Vampire
(as I mentioned I've only played in 2 Vampire tournaments before,
whereas the DCI database informs me that I have played 203 Magic
tournaments :-/) so I guess I naturally think about duels and must have
not really thought through the implications of a multiplayer game in a
tournament setting.

For starters, I hadn't really thought about the possibility that if I
come out of the starting gates to quickly then I would have problems
due to being ganged up on. I thought the first prize of the Nergal
deck was really cool, so just made up the most powerful deck I could
think up to try and win it. So decks that win in tournament Vampire
are generally ones don't appear to be threatening, but then pull out
the wins later on in the game?

I especially hadn't anticipated hostile players/being verbally abused
etc. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you guys meant, but surely being
insulting should be unsportsmanlike conduct or something? The players
at the two tournaments I played at previously seemed friendly enough,
although my deck at the previous constructed one was, um, somewhat,
suboptimal, ok it was really bad!

I have managed to convince some friends to have some casual Vampire
games on Sunday although there will be only 4 of us unfortunately, I
will incorporate the suggestions and try out both the obfuscate-based
and presence-based versions of the deck to see how it goes. But I
think I'll take another deck along (I casually play Gangrel and/or
Ravnos Trap-based decks often so maybe something along those lines) to
the tournament and have a discussion with the judge before we start
about the acceptability of playing the Pander deck.

Thanks again for the help,

PWillis

 

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"PWillis" <paul@willisworld.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1127513814.201833.141730@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> For starters, I hadn't really thought about the possibility that if I
> come out of the starting gates to quickly then I would have problems
> due to being ganged up on. I thought the first prize of the Nergal
> deck was really cool, so just made up the most powerful deck I could
> think up to try and win it. So decks that win in tournament Vampire
> are generally ones don't appear to be threatening, but then pull out
> the wins later on in the game?

The trouble is that the game really doesn't have a good answer to the
straight ahead balls-out weeny bleed deck if it's built a certain way
_except_ to gang up on it and cause it to be ousted. You may not have
built quite that type of deck but your crypt at least looks a lot like
one of them. There are a few decks that can crush that kind of a deck
but for the most part, those decks aren't necessarily good decks in
other ways so you won't often see them. Otherwise, you're looking at
a few anti-weeny toolbox cards that may or may not get drawn early, if
anyone at the table has even bothered to include any.

So the players will gang up on you and usually (on average, in my
experience) manage to oust you after you've made your first oust
but before you can make your second. If so, your prey tends to die
no matter what his strategy was or how well he did or didn't play.
(And even if he survives, he will have lost so much pool that he'll
be easy pickings for your predator after you're gone.) And your
predator tends to get handed an easy victory point and six pool no matter
what his strategy was and how well or poorly he may have played. In
short, the game becomes a screwed up mess the outcome of which seems
to have little to do with much more than who went before and after you
than any question of skill or metagame decision-making. This is why
people tend to get surly about it.

> I especially hadn't anticipated hostile players/being verbally abused
> etc. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you guys meant, but surely being
> insulting should be unsportsmanlike conduct or something? The players
> at the two tournaments I played at previously seemed friendly enough,
> although my deck at the previous constructed one was, um, somewhat,
> suboptimal, ok it was really bad!

Hopefully, you will not run into people just being flat abusive or
anything. As I said, they may get surly, but one would hope the
most players would just patiently explain to you that it's frustrating
to play in a game with such a deck and that gang-up tends to be a
common response (at least where people have seen the deck before).
Unsportsmanlship is illegal no matter what type of deck you bring
and the tournament judge should enforce it.

Fred

 

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PWillis wrote:
> tournaments :-/) so I guess I naturally think about duels and must have
> not really thought through the implications of a multiplayer game in a
> tournament setting.

Yep. Five players at a table means that, even though you only have to
look left for your VP, it's not quite as simple as "ignore everyone but
my predator".

> think up to try and win it. So decks that win in tournament Vampire
> are generally ones don't appear to be threatening, but then pull out
> the wins later on in the game?

Not necessarily. Some decks look threatening, and then end up having
the counter to whatever everyone else happens to have played -- these
decks will usually run over the table. No big surprise. But they can
go "flop" later against other decks who happen to have the counter
against THEM -- because there is no "one perfect deck type".

Many times the winner is the person who can move forward at an average,
yet consistent pace early on, and then accelerate later in the game when
everyone's resources are starting to be stretched.

> I especially hadn't anticipated hostile players/being verbally abused
> etc. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you guys meant, but surely being
> insulting should be unsportsmanlike conduct or something? The players

Uh, you come from Magic tournaments and you are asking this? I've seen
some massively poor sportsmanship from Magic players in my time,
including throwing a chair about 10 feet. Assuming you've seen the
same, I can safely say that you won't see ANYTHING as bad.

People are not likely to spend their entire time cussing you out
(although last time I played a variant of this deck, my prey DID
actually comment something to the effect of "cheese deck" every time he
spoke that game) or anything... but you are not gonna be greeted with
sweetness and light, either. Most people are just going to quietly go
about the business of evicting your deck from the table, and probably
not make much light conversation while doing it.

> at the two tournaments I played at previously seemed friendly enough,
> although my deck at the previous constructed one was, um, somewhat,
> suboptimal, ok it was really bad!

It's amazing how much easier it is to be nice to a player whose deck
needs help from the table to win.

> I have managed to convince some friends to have some casual Vampire
> games on Sunday although there will be only 4 of us unfortunately, I
> will incorporate the suggestions and try out both the obfuscate-based
> and presence-based versions of the deck to see how it goes. But I

Suggest trying out the NO-discipline version of the deck as well, as
that is typically one of the strongest.

> Ravnos Trap-based decks often so maybe something along those lines) to
> the tournament and have a discussion with the judge before we start
> about the acceptability of playing the Pander deck.

Oh, don't get me wrong. It's perfectly acceptable from the sense of
"are you here to win? Yes? Pander is a clan? Yes?" And there you go.
But you can't lose sight of the fact that by bringing that deck, you
claim you're there to win, not have fun, and will be treated accordingly.

- --
Derek

insert clever quotation here
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In message <1127513814.201833.141730@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
PWillis <paul@willisworld.fsnet.co.uk> writes:
>For starters, I hadn't really thought about the possibility that if I
>come out of the starting gates to quickly then I would have problems
>due to being ganged up on.

The player who looks like a disproportionate threat on a table will
invoke the wrath of the table.

For example, in days gone by, the old Anarch Revolt decks would get the
whole table come after them. Weenie swarm bleed and weenie swarm vote
(lots of Crusades/Praxis Seizures, some Presence, and a metric buttload
of KRC) will get similar treatment, as will many "turbo" decks - decks
which use Soul Gem and burning and repeating with a new copy of the
vampire, or lots and lots of Freak Drive (or similar) to repeatedly
untap and do other things.

If it looks like you're going to sweep the table and not let anyone else
get VPs out of it, most players will come after you. Some won't,
because they're in a weak position. Some won't, because they think they
might be able to snatch a quick VP, and then beat you in a show-down
(getting them 3VP and the table win).

But many players who need more time will come after you. Players who
need to slow the table down to get their deck working will try to come
after you, or bargain with others to come after you. Anyone who is in
trouble who can offer another player on the table something tempting
(e.g. pool from Parity Shifts, rushes on vampires you hate) *so long as
they're still alive* will try to cut deals with someone to take you on.


Also note that various decks - like weenie bleed/swarm bleed - will, as
Derek notes, provoke particularly hostile reactions because they're
boring. Arika-based decks will trigger similarly hostile reactions,
because so many Arika-based decks have done really nasty things.


The key to really, really successful play is to be the threat to the
table (so you can get the Game Win) but not *look like* the threat.

--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

 

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PWillis wrote:

> I especially hadn't anticipated hostile players/being verbally abused
> etc. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you guys meant, but surely being
> insulting should be unsportsmanlike conduct or something?

No one is gonna, like, beat you up or anything, but certainly in a storyline
event which most folks go to for giggles and entertainement, that kind of
Caitiff computer hacking deck is going to elicit groans and concentrated
table focus.

It is kind of like sitting down for a game of Magic with a deck of, like, 20
Land and 40 direct damage cards or whatever--it might win, it might not win,
but most folks will be like "Umm, yeah, ok. Lightning bolt me again please?"

> The players
> at the two tournaments I played at previously seemed friendly enough,
> although my deck at the previous constructed one was, um, somewhat,
> suboptimal, ok it was really bad!

Oh, people are certainly friendly. But again, given the general view of
storyline events, people tend to not play real focused decks, and that is a
real focused deck.


Peter D Bakija
pdb6@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

"So in conclusion, our business plan is to sell hot,
easily spilled liquids to naked people."
-Brittni Meil

 

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"Grey Wanderer" <greyone@gmail.com> writes:

> I'd like to see either the Caitiff or Pander win a storyline, but I
> don't have the faintest idea how to get such a deck to work.

Hint: http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/clan-twd.htm
(Tournament winning deck archive, sorted by clan)

Hint2: Legacy of Pander

Hint3: the vast majority of them are weenies



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hg@ "If you can't offend part of your audience,
iki.fi there is no point in being an artist at all." -Hakim Bey