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At this point, who can trust nVidia?

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  • Nvidia
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Last response: in Graphics & Displays
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May 24, 2003 12:15:45 PM

This is a very interesting story...nVidia is cheating and they're denying it although FutureMark clearly says they are...it makes you wonder about other benchmarks that suddenly increase in performance due to the Detonator FX drivers. Who is to say that nVidia didn't cheat in other games as well?

Intelligence is not merely the wealth of knowledge but the sum of perception, wisdom, and knowledge.

More about : point trust nvidia

May 24, 2003 1:14:22 PM

Yes, trust nobody even yourself because sometime you don't know what you are doing... and don't trust me...

It is morally wrong to allow suckers to keep their money
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May 24, 2003 1:44:48 PM

I wouldn't take it from one extreme to another. A level of trust should be establish before you make a buying decision. You don't want to buy a $400 video card to open up a box with crap in it, would you? You would at least expect to get a video card, a video card that is hopefully represented on the box, a video card that works etc.. Right? Nvidia is clearly misleading a number of folks indirectly you can say to believe something about their product which it is not. Is that a trust issue, you bet. Would I buy a Nvidia product right now? Maybe but it wouldn't be a video card I dare say.
May 24, 2003 3:24:17 PM

Whats really the pits is that a lot of people and i mean a LOT will end up buying the Fxs just because of this. I dont really know many people who do much internet research or post in forums for advice. They will fall for this fake PR. Look at the amount of fx5200s that have been selling and the amount of people asking advice for a choice between 5200s and ti 4200s. I mean is there even a comparison?

What really bugs me is that why does nVidia has to stoop to such low levels ....They have produced wayy better products in the past and has been the hands down market leader for a long while. Look at nForce IT's damn good and the only choice for AMD procs. Can't they just get back to some serious work? IT's desperation at it worst
<font color=blue><b>OKK!! Which one of you wise guys stole my sig! :frown: :tongue: </font color=blue></b><font color=red><b><i>Jay Kay</font color=red></b></i>
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
May 24, 2003 5:50:18 PM

The FX5900 outperforms the R9800 in Tom's HW game benchmarks and that's all I care about.

--Why do blondes have bruises on their belly buttons? Because blonde GUYS can be dumb too! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!--
May 24, 2003 6:42:01 PM

Quote:

The FX5900 outperforms the R9800 in Tom's HW game benchmarks and that's all I care about.

So what? That means nothing if nVidia is cheating to get those scores.

Intelligence is not merely the wealth of knowledge but the sum of perception, wisdom, and knowledge.
May 24, 2003 6:51:49 PM

Quote:
So what? That means nothing if nVidia is cheating to get those scores.

Let's not get carried away. I know nVidia cheated (yes, it's cheating, but so did ATI and ATI is just glad that they didn't do it as extremely as nVidia), but that was only in one specific benchmark. They didn't cheat in the games, and they could still beat the 9800 (not by much, but still). So just because they cheated in one single benchmark doesn't mean that their entire product is made of air (no pun intended). It is still a good card and and is still comparable to what ATI offers.
May 24, 2003 7:02:27 PM

poof cheating poof~~~~~ big deal~~~ only thing i care about is getting more then 2fps when i get doom3. and no whoever can tell the difference between 45fps and 48fps in any game should be shot....... why are you people making this such a big deal anyways..... so they cheated BIG DEAL! anyone who said they have never cheated or help someone cheat should be shot in the head as well, also i think personally that the only reason u guys are making a big fuss about this is you ATi Fanboys, scared that FX5900Ultra beat 9800pro.............what was it? 800 mark that nvidia cheated off?? tell me does that really matter -_-" as long as i can get more fps in Unreal 2k3 i don't really care how they cheated on a benchmark program infact i doubt among the people that will be a FX5900Ultra or 9800pro probably half of them don't even know wtf benchmark is

Proud Owner the Block Heater
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Athlon 64......nForce 3, it sure sucks when you can't afford things. One day Operton Servers will cost less than $4000 so everyone can get one
May 24, 2003 7:34:59 PM

And if you weren't "120% Nvidia fanboy," you would feel the same way? I always find it hilarious when one fanboy starts calling other people fanboys.


<font color=green>The Netherlands is where you go when you're too good for heaven.</font color=green> :tongue:
May 24, 2003 8:11:42 PM

The game benchmarks are all that really matter. I don't care much about these benchmark programs, and having both companies cheating in a single round of benchmarks just proves that I have good reason to completely ignore 3DMark.
May 24, 2003 8:42:04 PM

No, it proves that companies are immature and are forgetting to optimize Drivers for games, and instead for benchmarks, when these are used to TEST a card, to check if its FEATURES WORK.


--
If I could see the Matrix, I'd tell you I am only seeing 0s inside your head! :tongue:
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
May 24, 2003 8:49:36 PM

What he said.

Nvidia didn't cheat on the games.

I'm willing to live with a superior GPU, even if it's from an untrustworthy company. Games are all I care about, 3D Mark has always been controversal anyway.

--Why do blondes have bruises on their belly buttons? Because blonde GUYS can be dumb too! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!--
May 24, 2003 9:19:32 PM

The GPU may or may not be superior, but is it worth $100 more? That's why nVidia is cheating. It's hard to ask an additional $100 for a card that has 3-5% better performance overall. Much easier if you can claim 15-20% performance boosts...

And incidentally, calling the NV35 GPU "superior" is very debatable. It is a tiny bit faster, nothing more. I suppose if FPS is your <i>only</i> criteria to define quality in a graphics card, it's somewhat superior. There's more to 3D graphics than framerates, however.

<font color=green>The Netherlands is where you go when you're too good for heaven.</font color=green> :tongue:


<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Twitch on 05/24/03 05:21 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
May 24, 2003 11:36:08 PM

Can't argue that. The FX5900 is a big rip-off compared to the R9800, and especially the R9700. I'm not buying a GPU until July/August, so I'll just have to see how price are by then. If the FX5900 is $50 more expensive, sure I'll buy it, but right now, you're 100% right.

--Why do blondes have bruises on their belly buttons? Because blonde GUYS can be dumb too! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!--
May 24, 2003 11:51:16 PM

Not just that, but the 5800 is slightly behind it in most standard tests and even sometimes ahead, such as in Splinter Cell!
Is it worth the cost?
Imagine how worth it really is, for a 256MB version at 499$, insane pricing.

--
If I could see the Matrix, I'd tell you I am only seeing 0s inside your head! :tongue:
a b U Graphics card
May 25, 2003 12:49:29 AM

Great! So I should buy an nVidia card because they cheated on a benchmark, so I can feel sneeky. And a P4X400 board because VIA stole that, even though they later were forced to pay. And I'll be running some copy of Windows XP I picked up off Kaza. Now if I could just find a way to run that XP3200+ on it, and overclock it to the point that it actually performs on par with a P4 3.2C.

<font color=blue>Watts mean squat if you don't have quality!</font color=blue>
May 25, 2003 1:55:20 AM

How do you know they didn't cheat in the game benchmark's too?
May 25, 2003 2:00:49 AM

Quote:
How do you know they didn't cheat in the game benchmark's too?

Cuz the only way they could cheat in a game is if they reduce the image quality and ppl would notice that. But if they do write game-specific code then that is an optimization: game runs faster and looks the same, therefore not a cheat.
May 25, 2003 3:55:25 AM

The new problem arising in optimizations, is that it nevers used to be the driver that created performance increases, it used to be game-specific, as in THE GAME ITSELF is programmed. When Carmack does Doom III, HE is the one who optimizes, not ATi. HE makes sure the game will run at its best on ATi. Nowadays it seems most other programmers are lazy, and instead rely on driver control, which btw is NOT supposed to be this relied on, because the main goal of drivers, has and always will be, functionality.
Any performance boost aside, is a boon. Giving us this boon due to laziness, IMO, just isn't fun. And can you imagine how hard and long it is, to make game-specific opts in drivers? Pretty soon, we will download drivers 100MBs big, because the company wanted a leg up over the other in games.

--
If I could see the Matrix, I'd tell you I am only seeing 0s inside your head! :tongue:
May 25, 2003 6:20:22 AM

How many of the specific game benchmarks that we see are really demos being run on rails? Because it seems like any such benchmark might be susceptible to predictive culling. And that's not an optimization, it's a cheat. It's only an optimization if it carries over into gameplay, and a graphics card can never predict which way a player is going to turn the mouse...

<font color=green>The Netherlands is where you go when you're too good for heaven.</font color=green> :tongue:
May 25, 2003 6:31:21 AM

Actually I think since the game benchmarks are pretty much preset also, there are plenty of ways to cheat in them that are nothing to do with optimizing the game.

I would place a bet that both nVidia and ATi will be worrying right now about what they are going to do about cheats they have used in their drivers for game demos that are widely used for benchmarking. They can't just take them out in future drivers because it will be obvious.

I think it's only a matter of time before more cheating comes to light.
May 25, 2003 8:27:48 AM

Where? Do you have a link?
May 25, 2003 12:51:26 PM

Quote:
poof cheating poof~~~~~ big deal~~~ only thing i care about is getting more then 2fps when i get doom3.

look, ive said it about a million times to you guys.


if a company is willing to LIE to you about what their products are capable of, and charge you a higher price because of this False CLaim, and you found out about this lie would you still buy from them?

real life if the 2 sales reps were standing before you, one the known liar and the other beinng honest

and dont think Nvidia or ATI. becaause for some fukcing WIERD reason people think they have to be loyal to their video card companies, like they know the CEO personally or own shares or something

just think generally. who the hell would buy from the guy who is lieing?

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<A HREF="http://www.quake3world.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001355.html" target="_new">*I hate thug gangstas*</A>
May 25, 2003 1:12:40 PM

Does anyone believe that the detonator drivers have not already been optimized for Doom.Since Ati was not given the same chance, is that not cheating as well. Personally I will miss sucking on the detonator once a month. Such is life.
May 25, 2003 1:19:26 PM

Quote:
Has anyone with a legal background looked at this in their Country of origin.

Beyond cheating it looks like corporate Fraud - attempt to gain commercial benefits by deception to the lay person.

When a company listed on the stock market makes or causes to be false benefits attributed to their products that is actually a criminal action.



this was posted by g__day in a different thread.

i thought it was very relavent to your "i only care about FPS in games not the fact tat nvidia cheated" statement

and actually try to understand it, if you can find the time


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<A HREF="http://www.quake3world.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001355.html" target="_new">*I hate thug gangstas*</A>
May 25, 2003 2:56:30 PM

"The FX5900 outperforms the R9800 in Tom's HW game benchmarks and that's all I care about. "

Have fun waiting until June or later to get your card. I'll play with my 9800PRO NOW!
May 25, 2003 9:33:29 PM

I'm not sure if this point has already been touched upon, but nVidia seems to be moaning about 3DMarks and the fact that cause ATi work with them, ATi have an unfair advantage. Yet the Doom3 Exclusive sent to THG was a joint venture between nVidia and ID software, and it was this benchmark which showed the FX5900 in the most favourable light, even making the FX5800 look significantly better than the 9800Pro even though the FX5800 could hardly make a dent in the 9800Pro on it's previous benchmarks.

Is this a case of double standards on NVidia's part?
May 25, 2003 10:20:10 PM

thats exactly why i said before that we should wait until the retail of Doom3 comes out to make judgement


ATI probably hasnt had a chance to tweak drivers for that game yet, and Nvidia obviously has

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<A HREF="http://www.quake3world.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001355.html" target="_new">*I hate thug gangstas*</A>
May 25, 2003 10:32:02 PM

ATi has already made a statement to the public, claiming that when Doom3 is released, Radeon cards will be armed and ready for the best gameplay experience....and I believe them. Ive also heard that Quake 4 will be coming out shortly after Doom 3

3DMark 03 = 4,101
<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=775464" target="_new">http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=775464&lt;/A>
<font color=red>"I want that dam Cramack to finish Dom3 Now I wanna play!" - young rage3d forum member</font color=red>
May 25, 2003 11:32:31 PM

Damn it the benchmarks are still being shown!! Tom and Anand et al it is time to pull them. Replace them with some good old "blind taste tests". Nvidia does not deserve the free advertising if they haven't earned it!
May 25, 2003 11:51:04 PM

Thanks, Agent Mulder.

"I'm a man armed with a fork in a land of soup."
May 26, 2003 1:37:56 AM

Plus, the ATi outscored the nVidia on ExtremeTech's Gamegauge tests (on overall avg. framerate). Factor in that nVidia cheated on 3dmark , and you can see the better card. Are there any "real" 5900 ultra 3dmark scores out there?

I'm a born barbershopper...
May 26, 2003 1:43:10 AM

I don't mean to sound like a fanboy, but the said facts are true about the 9800 being superior in several ways. What I disagree with here is people saying that the 5900 Ultra is a bad card. It really isn't a bad card, so to speak, but the people behind it that are screwing up its rep. Whereas the performance numbers (on extremetech and [h]ard|ocp) list the 9800 Pro as being slightly superior, nvidia's are very close. But, image quality goes to ATi, hands down. Have you seen those extremetech screens? Big differences. Plus, check out the frame rates displayed on the screens.

I'm a born barbershopper...
May 26, 2003 1:57:43 AM

I agree with you. The FX5900 is not a bad card per se. It's that nVidia has given up on properly developping cards, and going for fanboy support, and fraud. In the history of life, cheating has always been the easiest way around, the fastest, and often the one that lead to easy results. But it had its flaws. And now they were uncovered.

If the FX5900 was properly worked on, it'd have raped.

--
If I could see the Matrix, I'd tell you I am only seeing 0s inside your head! :tongue:
May 26, 2003 2:06:01 AM

no no the 5900ultra is not a bad card at all

256bit memory, and more mature drivers



they just have to realize that they cant use marketing to manipulate. you can use it to talk up what yur selling, but you cant lie

"the way its meant to be played"

says who? ATI is faster and better quality. i guess that means that statement "the way its meant to be played" is a lie

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<A HREF="http://www.quake3world.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001355.html" target="_new">*I hate thug gangstas*</A>
May 26, 2003 3:09:26 AM

"The way you're meant to be played." is their real solgan.
May 26, 2003 4:55:22 AM

The worst of it is that Ati will now be less motivated to come out with a new top card, so suckers will keep giving money to Novidia (intentional)
May 26, 2003 9:41:01 AM

i'm following nvidia since its existance now, and i actually have seen them cheating the last 1.5 years. cheating, marketing manipulating, lie-saying (i don't say they lie:D  i would never say that:D ), developing immature, premature, primitive, unusable, nonportable software for developers and endusers.

somehow its really FUN to see nv-fanboys all the time saing how stable the nvidia drivers are, not actually knowing how much crap there is in.

and nvidia is really showing the world their driver is only there for cheating. just compare the sizes of ati drivers and nvidia drivers, and explain me what is in that difference.

those aren't drivers, those are real applications. like virescanners those are programscanners.

drivers of about all other hw are small and tiny. nvidia cannot explain why their drivers are huge. i know whats all in there. it doesn't explain the size at all.

nvidia is an american company, following the very first american rule of living: everything that fits your profit, do it. capitalism rules. as long as nobody can catch you, you can do what ever you want.

there are good people in the nvidia team. i know some of them. really good, hard working people. and then there are the others...


what i don't like is the answer of nvidia. "its futuremarks fault. they hate us". thats simply primitive. they can't stand their cheating. thats poor and primitive.

"take a look around" - limp bizkit

www.google.com
May 26, 2003 11:12:02 AM

davepermen.. who are you?


i seen you on a site linked from the developers section of ATI.com, a demo site


what do you do? if you dont mind me asking

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<A HREF="http://www.quake3world.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001355.html" target="_new">*I hate thug gangstas*</A>
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