Just think of it - ATi's highend .13u card!!!

daddywags214

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I can't wait. Clock speeds pushed through the roof... Memory speeds jacked up... New technologies... what do you guys think the specs will be like?

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Ghostdog

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People (you in this case) seem to think that moving to a 130nm process automatically gurantees insane clockspeeds. A GPU´s clockspeed isn´t the only thing that counts.

And think about it, if a company had the technology to produce something amazing, something that beats competing products by leaps, would they release such a thing?
No, because that would be bad marketing. They´ll continue with appropriate speed-increases.

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phial

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an R350 @ 600mhz would be insane. imagine it. or even 700mhz cause they are hitting 500hmz on .15


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Ghostdog

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I'm merely fantasizing, my friend. After all, it would be hella cool.
Yes it would :smile: Would be interesting to see how far you could OC a chip like that.
Of course we would have to wait until the process is more mature.

<font color=red>I´m starting to feel like a real computer consultant.</font color=red><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Ghostdog on 06/09/03 06:07 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
 

Twitch

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That's what I was hoping they would do with the 256-meg version.



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Twitch

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Insane clock and memory speeds aren't everything, but they don't hurt, either.



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coolsquirtle

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I smell the good old dustbuster hype......... (throws dustbuster into the crowd)

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Twitch

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Well, considering the 9800 PRO is already approaching NV35 clock speeds with a conventional and very quiet HSF, it only stands to reason that the .13 process would yield some useable gains without sacrificing an efficient cooling system. I do tend to think ATI's next product to improve performance will also include either a core refresh (R375?) or a new core altogether (R400.) It wouldn't surprise me if a theoretical R375 was an R350 core with a few enhancements specifically to improve performance in D3 or HL2 or both, on a .13 process running at 450/400 or thereabouts, and performing around 15-20% faster than the 9800 PRO. One thing I do wonder is what motivated ATI to use hot and inefficient DDR2 ram on their new 9800 PRO-256. They must have gotten a swingin' deal on that crap.


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phial

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I do tend to think ATI's next product to improve performance will also include either a core refresh (R375?) or a new core altogether (R400.)


more than likely it seems. look at the K7. man that architecture has been around for a long time. and its still good. its what the opetron is based on. only modificatoins are to increase its clock speed and its branch prediction. truly an amazing chip

and i think the R300 is the same way. it was a leap for sure. the GFFX was a step ahead yes, but not the huge leap the R300 was. if they can keep improving it, like htey did the the 9800 and its Tbuffer for faster stencil shadows for Doom3. if they can keep on doing small steps like that i thik that core will take them a long way

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reever2

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Its not hype, r350's on 0.15 can already reach 5800 ultra speeds, that is the result of a very mature process, Nvidias 5800 WAS hype because it was a new immature process which didnt happen to give any real benefits to clockspeed, they had to slap a huge dustbuster fan on it and overclock the board to reach the speeds they were *hoping* to reach on the 0.13 process with a tiny fan, but they were wrong.
 

lhgpoobaa

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Bear in mind all the trouble that Nvidia had going to 0.13 micron... they ended up with silicon running so hot it needed a turbine to cool it.

0.13 is not some miracle. It takes alot of work to get cool running, highly clockable 0.13.

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daddywags214

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DDRII supposedly will be able to be clocked much higher than DDR once the proper research and development is done, right? Why? How much?

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lhgpoobaa

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Same deal. DDR2 = new process = inefficient = runs HOT.

Once it matures DDR2 should achieve its target goals, but for now its HOT HOT HOT.

<font color=blue>Many modern games <b>must</b> be played multiplayer. And those you encounter online are, almost as a rule, <b>complete and utter cockmongers.</b></font color=blue> :frown:
 

daddywags214

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Probably R400 will have a greater grip on the technology, no? I'm sure they won't have it down pat by then but they'll be getting better at it.

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Ghostdog

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They must have gotten a swingin' deal on that crap.
Huhm, I wonder why? :smile:

The R400/500 might come out in the beggining of next year, maybe to counter <A HREF="http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20030608032259.html" target="_new">NV40</A>?
ATI supposedly had a R400 pretty much done on the design-side, and it was something pretty grand, but apparently it had some flaws which forced ATI to re-design things.
Now it´s likely will see another version of the R300 core before the next architecture.

<font color=red>I´m starting to feel like a real computer consultant.</font color=red>
 
0.13 is not some miracle. It takes alot of work to get cool running, highly clockable 0.13.
Says who? The RV350 is highly clockable at 0.13. Yes it has less transistors, but it also has a miniscule HSF. The question is more about the need to make as many transistors as the NVs running that fast. Can ATI run a leaner setup? I think their experience with the 9600P will give them an idea of what works.
All things being equal the0.13 process means fater speeds. Whether that necessarily translates into better performance depends on all the factors involved. I think Nvidia's implementation is not an example of anything other than a way to rush a new design and to over tax it to make it competitive. It's not an example of the process, simply an example of what Nvidia did to try a compensate for driver/design shortcomings. The process itself isn't inherentley hot. And from all the rumblings out of the west, the problem plaguing Taiwa Semi's first process are long gone.



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lhgpoobaa

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you make it sound soooooooooooooo easy.... why i should have a 0.13 fab in my bedroom! Ill have it up and running by the weekend.
[/sarcasm]

all im saying is 0.13 shouldnt automatically be easy to obtain. Nvidia's 0.13 is rather hot ATM, and we all know it took a while for AMD to make their 0.13 run decently cool. DDR2 for the moment seems to be the same. but everything changes in time


<font color=blue>Many modern games <b>must</b> be played multiplayer. And those you encounter online are, almost as a rule, <b>complete and utter cockmongers.</b></font color=blue> :frown:
 
You have a 9600 right? Did you overclock it?
Yes on both counts. and you can check out all 'our' (read many) adventures <A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=348985#348985" target="_new">HERE</A>.

The main thing is MOST of the newer cards do have some room, however I suspect that the Nvidia ones are shipping near max.


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So use a bad example as a base line. The process itself allows for more wiggle room. They max out at different levels, and so far I've seen all 0.13 cores able to outpace all 0.15 cores under 'normal' conditions even the 'crappy' implementation.
I think 0.13 isn't as ground breaking as you make it out to be. Yes it is new to the VPU market, but it's not like they are breaking SOI ground or something.
Yeah Nvidia has cranked the cores in order to make their underperforming design work better, but that's not indicative of 0.13 process so much as the core design.


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daddywags214

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Welll done on your overclocking success. As for the whole .13u thing, the good part (or most beneficial part) of the whole thing is really about what it could mean, not what it does mean. For example, when digital camcorders first came out, my uncle ran out and bought one. He was quite exited about the new technology that he went to buy it just because it was digital. The camcorder sucked. It wa overpriced, it only supported one type of media, it lacked many basic features (image stabilization, good zoom, and a light) and the sonofabitch only shot 15 frames per second!!! (The movie standard is 24-30fps) He still liked it, and eventually put it to some good use (He gave to his students to use as a learning tool in his media technology class). Now, look at digital camcorders. They are cheap (relatively speaking) and loaded with useful features. They are efficient, both in size and performance.

Now, obviously, the whole camcorder thing is a bit more extreme than the .13u situation. The 9600 Pro is a kickarse card. It is very useful, and very efficient, as is proved by your overclocking success. But .13u opens doors not necessarily to performance, but to techniques and technologies that increase performance. And to further what you said, the already-efficient manufacturing process that ATi uses on its cards will only affect this for the better.

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