Living Terrain / summoning sickness / wrong card text?

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

I was considering the following card (8th Edition Core Set) with
respect to summoning sickness:

Living Terrain
Enchant Land | 2GG (4) | Green
"Enchanted land is a 5/6 green Treefolk creature
that's still a land."

Then, I found the following on magicthegathering.com:

Saturday School #35 (Rune Horvik / July 5, 2003):

Q: If I enchant a land with Living Terrain, can I attack
with it the same turn I played the spell?

A: You can attack with it if you have controlled the land
continuously since the beginning of your turn. Summoning
sickness only applies to the creature (which is the land),
it doesn't matter if you played the enchantment this turn -
it's how long you have controlled the permanent that wants
to attack that matters.

But the Comprehensive Rules (magicthegathering.com) say:

212.3d A creature's activated ability with the tap symbol in
its activation cost can't be played unless *the creature* has
been under its controller's control since the start of his or
her most recent turn. A creature can't attack unless *it* has been
under its controller's control since the start of his or her most
recent turn. This rule is informally called the "summoning sickness"
rule. Ignore this rule for creatures with haste (see rule 502.5).

I think, this does not fit together. In my opinion, either the
Comprehensive Rules should replace the words marked with *...* by
'the corresponding permanent' or the card text of Living Terrain
should say "Enchanted land is a 5/6 green Treefolk creature with
haste that's still a land." ('haste' was added here).

Another solution: Rune Horvik made a mistake in his article.
(I doubt that.)

Or maybe I don't get the point here (most probably :-)

What do you think?

Nuff

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Nuff Said wrote:

> I was considering the following card (8th Edition Core Set) with
> respect to summoning sickness:
>
> Living Terrain Enchant Land | 2GG (4) | Green "Enchanted land is a
> 5/6 green Treefolk creature that's still a land."
>
> Then, I found the following on magicthegathering.com:
>
> Saturday School #35 (Rune Horvik / July 5, 2003):
>
> Q: If I enchant a land with Living Terrain, can I attack with it
> the same turn I played the spell?
>
> A: You can attack with it if you have controlled the land
> continuously since the beginning of your turn. Summoning sickness
> only applies to the creature (which is the land), it doesn't
> matter if you played the enchantment this turn - it's how long you
> have controlled the permanent that wants to attack that matters.
>
> But the Comprehensive Rules (magicthegathering.com) say:
>
> 212.3d A creature's activated ability with the tap symbol in its
> activation cost can't be played unless *the creature* has been
> under its controller's control since the start of his or her most
> recent turn. A creature can't attack unless *it* has been under
> its controller's control since the start of his or her most recent
> turn. This rule is informally called the "summoning sickness"
> rule. Ignore this rule for creatures with haste (see rule 502.5).
>
> I think, this does not fit together. In my opinion, either the
> Comprehensive Rules should replace the words marked with *...* by
> 'the corresponding permanent' or ...

Maybe they should change the following rule so it won't affect
abilities only:

202.2a If an ability of an object uses a phrase such as "this
[something]" to identify an object, where [something] is a category or
characteristic, it is referring to that particular object, even if it
isn't the appropriate category or characteristic at the time.
Example:
An ability reads "Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn.
Destroy that creature at end of turn." The ability will destroy the
object it gave +2/+2 at the end of the turn, even if that object isn't
a creature anymore.

But it's clear it means 'the permanent which now is the creature we
are talking about' when they say 'the creature'.

David

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Nuff Said <nuffsaid@phreaker.net> writes:
> I was considering the following card (8th Edition Core Set) with
> respect to summoning sickness:
>
> Living Terrain
> Enchant Land | 2GG (4) | Green
> "Enchanted land is a 5/6 green Treefolk creature
> that's still a land."
>
> Then, I found the following on magicthegathering.com:
[snip: Rune saying that you can attack as long as you've had the
permanent under your control since the beginning of your turn]
>
> But the Comprehensive Rules (magicthegathering.com) say:
>
> 212.3d A creature's activated ability with the tap symbol in
> its activation cost can't be played unless *the creature* has
> been under its controller's control since the start of his or
> her most recent turn. A creature can't attack unless *it* has been
> under its controller's control since the start of his or her most
> recent turn. This rule is informally called the "summoning sickness"
> rule. Ignore this rule for creatures with haste (see rule 502.5).
>
> I think, this does not fit together. In my opinion, either the
> Comprehensive Rules should replace the words marked with *...* by
> 'the corresponding permanent' or the card text of Living Terrain
> should say "Enchanted land is a 5/6 green Treefolk creature with
> haste that's still a land." ('haste' was added here).

Well, I can understand the confusion, but it's just using the words
"the creature" to refer to the object that is currently a creature
that wants to attack or use its {T} ability. The constraint is that it
needs to be under its controller's control since the beginning of
his/her most recent turn. If it needed to be a creature the entire
time, it would have said so explicitly.

I agree that they could word it more clearly.

> Another solution: Rune Horvik made a mistake in his article.
> (I doubt that.)

Well, that does happen occasionally, but they generally post a
corrected version fairly quickly. Rune's usually right.

> Or maybe I don't get the point here (most probably :-)

Well, the point is that the Comprehensive Rules are very technical,
and usually explicitly state exactly what needs to occur. And that
creature needed to be under your control since the beginning of your
most recent turn. It may have looked a little different earlier, but
that's immaterial.

--
Peter C.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to get back to reality.
Wherever that is.

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Nuff Said sez:

<<
>I was considering the following card (8th Edition Core Set) with
>respect to summoning sickness:
>
> Living Terrain
> Enchant Land | 2GG (4) | Green
> "Enchanted land is a 5/6 green Treefolk creature
> that's still a land."
>
>Then, I found the following on magicthegathering.com:
>
> Saturday School #35 (Rune Horvik / July 5, 2003):
>
> Q: If I enchant a land with Living Terrain, can I attack
> with it the same turn I played the spell?
>
> A: You can attack with it if you have controlled the land
> continuously since the beginning of your turn. Summoning
> sickness only applies to the creature (which is the land),
> it doesn't matter if you played the enchantment this turn -
> it's how long you have controlled the permanent that wants
> to attack that matters.
>
>>

True.

<<
>But the Comprehensive Rules (magicthegathering.com) say:
>
> 212.3d A creature's activated ability with the tap symbol in
> its activation cost can't be played unless *the creature* has
> been under its controller's control since the start of his or
> her most recent turn. A creature can't attack unless *it* has been
> under its controller's control since the start of his or her most
> recent turn. This rule is informally called the "summoning sickness"
> rule. Ignore this rule for creatures with haste (see rule 502.5).
>>

But the creature (Living Terrain'd land) HAS been controlled continuously since
the start of its controller's last turn. It just hasn't been a creature all
that time. This rule ignores card type. It asks two things: Are you a
creature now? Yes. Have you been controlled continuously since the start of
your controller's last turn? No. Then you have "Summoning sickness".
However, the LT'ed land answers "Yes" to both questions, so it can attack. (If
it answered "No" to the first, then this rule doesn't even apply.)

<<
>I think, this does not fit together. In my opinion, either the
>Comprehensive Rules should replace the words marked with *...* by
>'the corresponding permanent' or the card text of Living Terrain
>should say "Enchanted land is a 5/6 green Treefolk creature with
>haste that's still a land." ('haste' was added here).
>>

It might help, but I don't think it matters.

<<
>Another solution: Rune Horvik made a mistake in his article.
>(I doubt that.)
>>

Even Rune sometimes makes mistakes. Just not this time...

<<
>Or maybe I don't get the point here (most probably :-)
>
>What do you think?
>>

I think you're right there.


----
"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."
--Sigmund Freud
"Sometimes a cake is just a cake."
--Deanna Troi, Star Trek: TNG: "Phantasms"