hallow

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***
Hallow {W}
Instant
Darksteel Common
- Prevent all damage target spell would deal this turn.
- You gain life equal to the damage prevented this way.
***

When do you gain the life?

***
Profane Prayers {2BB}
Sorcery
Onslaught Common
- Profane Prayers deals X damage to target creature or player and you gain X
life, where X is the number of Clerics in play.
***
I mean, let's say I play a Profane Prayers and there's, oh, 6 Clerics in
play and I target my opponent.
Then my opponent plays Hallow.

So, Hallow resolves and the damage from Profane Prayers is prevented. And
the *life is gained* right then, right, as the spell resolves, after the
prevention sheild is set up? How much is gained? Six?
Now, let's say after the Hallow resolves, I have a bright idea and I cycle
Slice and Dice, wiping out, oh, say 4 Clerics, leaving 2.
Now Profane Prayers would only do 2 damage, but the life's already been
gained, right?

Or does the life gain wait until the damage is actually prevented, and if
so, why?

And what about the flipside? If Hallow resolves, and I suddenly get two
extra Clerics out via an instant (maybe an Artificial Evolution on Raise the
Alarm), would Hallow only prevent 6 of the resultant 8 damage? Or is it
preventing all the damage from a source?

Just wondering,
Peter

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Risser Family wrote:

> Or does the life gain wait until the damage is actually prevented,
> and if so, why?

You've got the right of it with this guess. All damage prevention effects
wait until an effect which would deal damage resolves. In Hallow's case,
that effect is the targeted spell.

That's quite logical when you consider any number of factors could change
the number of clerics in play before Profane Prayers resolves.

> And what about the flipside? If Hallow resolves, and I suddenly get
> two extra Clerics out via an instant (maybe an Artificial Evolution
> on Raise the Alarm), would Hallow only prevent 6 of the resultant 8
> damage? Or is it preventing all the damage from a source?

Hallow would prevent all eight points if those extra cleric spells were to
successfully resolve before Profane Prayers resolved.

--
Gravity: it's not just a good idea, it's the law.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"Risser Family" <news@nospam.com> writes:
> Hallow {W}

You quoted Hallow as having two separate lines... In actuality, they
are on one line, indicating that they are linked.

,----[ Oracle (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dci/oracle) ]
| Hallow
| {W}
| Instant
| Prevent all damage target spell would deal this turn. You gain life
| equal to the damage prevented this way.
`----

> When do you gain the life?

When Hallow resolves, it sets up a prevention/replacement shield that
says "This turn, any damage *that* spell there would do doesn't
happen. Oh, and *that* player gains life equal to the damage prevented
this way."

So, you gain the life when the spell tries to do you damage (including
the permanent that the spell becomes, if it's a creature, enchantment,
or artifact).

> ***
> Profane Prayers {2BB}
> Sorcery
> Onslaught Common
> - Profane Prayers deals X damage to target creature or player and you gain X
> life, where X is the number of Clerics in play.
> ***
> I mean, let's say I play a Profane Prayers and there's, oh, 6 Clerics in
> play and I target my opponent.
> Then my opponent plays Hallow.
>
> So, Hallow resolves and the damage from Profane Prayers is prevented.

Well, the shield is set up that will prevent the damage.

> And the *life is gained* right then, right, as the spell resolves,
> after the prevention sheild is set up? How much is gained? Six?

The life is gained as a part of the prevention/replacement shield. So
if the Profane Prayers hasn't resolved yet, you won't gain any life
yet. All Hallow does on resolution is set up the shield.

> Now, let's say after the Hallow resolves, I have a bright idea and I
> cycle Slice and Dice, wiping out, oh, say 4 Clerics, leaving 2. Now
> Profane Prayers would only do 2 damage, but the life's already been
> gained, right?

No, as I just said.

> Or does the life gain wait until the damage is actually prevented,

That's correct.

> and if so, why?

There's no way for the Hallow to know how much damage a spell might do
to you this turn. So, it sets up a prevention/replacement shield that
does two things: prevent the damage and have you gain that much
life. Anything that depends on the damage being prevented has to be a
part of the same shield.

I'm not sure how else to describe how you can tell that the effects
are linked like that, although the fact that there's no paragraph
break between them should be a big clue.

> And what about the flipside? If Hallow resolves, and I suddenly get
> two extra Clerics out via an instant (maybe an Artificial Evolution
> on Raise the Alarm), would Hallow only prevent 6 of the resultant 8
> damage?

Hallow would prevent all 8, and its controller would gain 8 life,
during the resolution of Profane Prayers.

> Or is it preventing all the damage from a source?

It prevents all the damage from that source that would occur this
turn. (Exactly what it says. No more, no less. Sometimes, you just
have to read cards literally.)

Please post again if this doesn't clear things up or if you have more
questions.

--
Peter C.
"Almost every secure Internet protocol requires a highly accurate
value of Pi in order to function correctly."
-- RFC 3091, "Pi Digit Generation Protocol"

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Peter Cooper Jr. wrote:

> I'm not sure how else to describe how you can tell that the effects
> are linked like that, although the fact that there's no paragraph
> break between them should be a big clue.

Even so, the spells clearly indicates that the amount of life gained is the
amount of damage prevented. There's no way for the life gain to occur until
the damage is actually prevented.

--
Gravity: it's not just a good idea, it's the law.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 23:22:22 GMT, Risser Family <news@nospam.com> wrote:
>***
>Hallow {W} >Instant >Darksteel Common
>- Prevent all damage target spell would deal this turn.
>- You gain life equal to the damage prevented this way.
>***
>
>When do you gain the life?

When the damage gets prevented. Note that this spell does NOT have two
separate abilities or effects, so typing it in yourself rather than
cut-and-pasting from Oracle may have misled you:

Hallow W Instant
Prevent all damage target spell would deal this turn. You gain life equal to
the damage prevented this way.

If for some reason the spell manages to try to deal damage more than once
this turn - if, say, this was a Thrashing Wumpus spell which becomes a
Thrashing Wumpus creature [the shield will follow the Wumpus into play and
still prevent damage from it -this turn-, per 419.8a], and the Wumpus then
uses its ability twice this turn - that damage will still all be prevented
and you'd gain life for each time the spell tries to deal damage.

[Note that a _copy of_ a spell is not the same as the spell itself; Chain
Lightning's copies are not the same as the original, and if you Hallow the
original you only prevent its damage, not that of the copies too.]

>Profane Prayers {2BB} >Sorcery
>- Profane Prayers deals X damage to target creature or player and you gain X
>life, where X is the number of Clerics in play.
>***
>I mean, let's say I play a Profane Prayers and there's, oh, 6 Clerics in
>play and I target my opponent.
>Then my opponent plays Hallow.
>
>So, Hallow resolves and the damage from Profane Prayers is prevented. And
>the *life is gained* right then, right, as the spell resolves, after the
>prevention sheild is set up? How much is gained? Six?

No. The life is gained _later when the shield is actually used_. Since you have
no idea, when the shield is first MADE, how much damage it will actually
end up preventing later this turn. (Someone could counter the Profane
Prayers after the Hallow resolved, for example, or play Standardize and
make everything in play into Cats, etc.)

You gain no life as Hallow resolves. In this example, you will later gain
life when the _Profane Prayers_ resolves. If there are still 6 Clerics in
play at that time, the Hallow shield changes what Profane Prayers' effect is
into "Hallow's caster gains 6 life. Profane Prayers deals no damage. Profane
Prayers' caster gains 6 life.".

>Now, let's say after the Hallow resolves, I have a bright idea and I cycle
>Slice and Dice, wiping out, oh, say 4 Clerics, leaving 2.
>Now Profane Prayers would only do 2 damage, but the life's already been
>gained, right?

Nope. Again, you haven't gained any life _as Hallow resolves_, because NO
DAMAGE HAS BEEN PREVENTED BY HALLOW'S SHIELD YET at that time. If you Slice
and Dice away four of the Clerics before the PP resolves, then later when it
does:
a) Hallow will prevent the 2 damage PP tries to deal
b) You will gain 2 life from Hallow's effect
c) PP's caster will gain 2 life from PP's effect

>Or does the life gain wait until the damage is actually prevented, and if
>so, why?

Yes, and because until the damage is actually prevented you have no idea at
all how much damage _Hallow_ will prevent. Also, remember that Hallow might
not be the only damage-prevention effect competing to prevent damage from this
spell; if the PP targetted a player, and that player had a Circle: Black out
and used it picking the PP as the source, then that player gets to _choose_
whether the Hallow shield, or the Circle shield, prevents the damage that
the PP tries to deal [419.9a].

>And what about the flipside? If Hallow resolves, and I suddenly get two
>extra Clerics out via an instant (maybe an Artificial Evolution on Raise the
>Alarm), would Hallow only prevent 6 of the resultant 8 damage? Or is it
>preventing all the damage from a source?

It's preventing -all- the damage from that spell this turn, as it says. You
would later, when the PP was resolving, gain 8 life from Hallow's effect in
this case (and the PP's caster would also gain 8 life, from the PP's effect).

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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"Risser Family" <news@nospam.com> writes:
> dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) writes:
>> Hallow W Instant
>> Prevent all damage target spell would deal this turn. You gain life
>> equal to the damage prevented this way.
>>
>> "Risser Family" <news@nospam.com> writes:
>> >Or does [Hallow's] life gain wait until the damage is actually
>> >prevented, and if so, why?
>>
>> Yes, and because until the damage is actually prevented you have no
>> idea at all how much damage _Hallow_ will prevent. Also, remember
>> that Hallow might not be the only damage-prevention effect
>> competing to prevent damage from this spell; if the PP targetted a
>> player, and that player had a Circle: Black out and used it picking
>> the PP as the source, then that player gets to _choose_ whether the
>> Hallow shield, or the Circle shield, prevents the damage that the
>> PP tries to deal [419.9a].
>
> Okay, yeah, but, "Why?".
>
> The only things I can think of are:
> - The prevention is a replacement effect, and it replaces the
> damage done with "don't do damage, and also, gain that much life."
> - The life gain is a delayed triggered ability that really means
> "Whenever damage is prevented this way, you gain that much life."
>
> But again, I can't find anything in the rules to back up either of these
> readings. I'd like to understand how this works.

Well, the first one is the only one that makes sense. In order to be
the second one, it would need to use one of the Magic words "When",
"Whenever", or "At". If it doesn't have one of those words, then it
isn't a triggered ability.

Since you need to know how much damage is being prevented in order to
gain the life, the life-gain has to be a part of the same
prevention/replacement effect shield.

> I looked through some older cards. Here are some other examples of
> similar templating:
>
> Respite
> - Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt this turn. You gain
> 1 life for each attacking creature.
>
> If I understand correctly, if my opponent attacked with 4
> Ornithopters and I played Respite, I would gain no life, because the
> second part of the effect wouldn't occur until the prevention
> "shield" was actually used, and since no damage is being done,
> nothing is prevented.

The "gain 1 life for each attacking creature" doesn't depend on
knowing how much damage was prevented, so it occurs as Respite
resolves. You would gain 4 life.

> Spore Cloud
> - Tap all blocking creatures. Prevent all combat damage that would
> be dealt this turn. Each attacking creature and each blocking
> creature doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.
>
> Telekinesis
> - Tap target creature. Prevent all combat damage that would be
> dealt by that creature this turn. It doesn't untap during its
> controller's next two untap steps.
>
> And same here. The final part of the effect doesn't occur until the
> prevention shield is actually used, and if no damage is dealt, the
> shield isn't used.

No, for the same reason. The prevention can work on its own,
separately from the rest of the effect.

> I'm sure I'm missing something, I just want to know what I'm missing.

Well, the templating is the same both ways, yes. Right now, in order
to tell if two effects happen at the same time or are a part of the
same prevent/instead statement, you just kinda have to use common
sense. If the other part needs the prevention to happen in order to do
its job, it has to be a part of the same shield. If it makes sense for
the second part to occur on its own, it does.

It can be hard to word cards such that the order of what exactly
happens when is completely clear without making the English (or
whatever natural language is being used) very convoluted. WotC Editing
has sometimes done a very good job and sometimes done a not-so-good
job.

They probably should have worded Hallow to be closer to Test of Faith,
with a comma instead of a period between the prevention part and the
do-something-based-on-the-prevention part. Maybe if we bug them enough
about it they'd update Oracle to do so. But I wouldn't count on it.

,----[ Oracle ]
| Test of Faith
| {1}{W}
| Instant
| Prevent the next 3 damage that would be dealt to target creature
| this turn, and put a +1/+1 counter on that creature for each 1
| damage prevented this way.
`----

> Thanks!

You're welcome. I hope that this cleared things up for you, and
probably other people will post that can explain what to look for
better than I.

--
Peter C.
"The corn muffin shall be the official muffin of the commonwealth."
-- Mass. General Law, Chapter 2, Section 28.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hello, David!
You wrote on 13 Apr 2004 00:26:43 -0400:

DD> Hallow W Instant
DD> Prevent all damage target spell would deal this turn. You gain
DD> life equal to
DD> the damage prevented this way.

DD> If for some reason the spell manages to try to deal damage more
DD> than once
DD> this turn - if, say, this was a Thrashing Wumpus spell which
DD> becomes a
DD> Thrashing Wumpus creature [the shield will follow the Wumpus
DD> into play and
DD> still prevent damage from it -this turn-, per 419.8a

Whoa!
I'm learning something new about this game every day! Although the rule
(419.8a) is crystal clear, the example above is in fact very
counterintuitive and I can imagine that not all judges would rule it the
correct way in the heat of the Magic duel.
Does it mean that Hallow can prevent combat damage from creatures with
Haste as well? (By casting it in response to, say, Viashino Sandstalker)
It does say "all damage"...

Regards,
Arkady.

 

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"Arkady Zilberberg" <arkadyz1@yahoo.com> writes:
> Hello, David!
> You wrote on 13 Apr 2004 00:26:43 -0400:
> DD> Hallow W Instant
> DD> Prevent all damage target spell would deal this turn. You gain
> DD> life equal to the damage prevented this way.
>
> DD> If for some reason the spell manages to try to deal damage more
> DD> than once this turn - if, say, this was a Thrashing Wumpus spell
> DD> which becomes a Thrashing Wumpus creature [the shield will
> DD> follow the Wumpus into play and still prevent damage from it
> DD> -this turn-, per 419.8a
>
> Whoa!
> I'm learning something new about this game every day!

We all do

> Although the rule (419.8a) is crystal clear, the example above is in
> fact very counterintuitive and I can imagine that not all judges
> would rule it the correct way in the heat of the Magic duel.

Magic has a lot of odd corner cases that can be difficult to judge
correctly. That's why I read & answer questions in this group, 'cause
I want to be a certified judge someday.

> Does it mean that Hallow can prevent combat damage from creatures
> with Haste as well? (By casting it in response to, say, Viashino
> Sandstalker) It does say "all damage"...

Yes. It prevents all damage that the spell (or permanent that the
spell becomes) would deal this turn. Just like it says.

Note that a smart opponent would probably not attack with the Viashino
Sandstalker or use the Thrashing Wumpus's ability that turn, as the
damage would be prevented and Hallow's controller would gain that much
life. Also note that Hallow has to be played in response to the
spell. Once the spell has resolved, you can't play Hallow on it (since
it's no longer a spell).

--
Peter C.
"I was gratified to be able to answer promptly, and I did. I said I
didn't know."
-- Mark Twain, "Life on the Mississippi"

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

> Hallow W Instant
> Prevent all damage target spell would deal this turn. You gain life equal
to
> the damage prevented this way.

> You gain no life as Hallow resolves. In this example, you will later gain
> life when the _Profane Prayers_ resolves. If there are still 6 Clerics in
> play at that time, the Hallow shield changes what Profane Prayers' effect
is
> into "Hallow's caster gains 6 life. Profane Prayers deals no damage.
Profane
> Prayers' caster gains 6 life.".

> >Or does the life gain wait until the damage is actually prevented, and if
> >so, why?
>
> Yes, and because until the damage is actually prevented you have no idea
at
> all how much damage _Hallow_ will prevent. Also, remember that Hallow
might
> not be the only damage-prevention effect competing to prevent damage from
this
> spell; if the PP targetted a player, and that player had a Circle: Black
out
> and used it picking the PP as the source, then that player gets to
_choose_
> whether the Hallow shield, or the Circle shield, prevents the damage that
> the PP tries to deal [419.9a].

Okay, yeah, but, "Why?".

The only things I can think of are:
- The prevention is a replacement effect, and it replaces the damage done
with "don't do damage, and also, gain that much life."
- The life gain is a delayed triggered ability that really means "Whenever
damage is prevented this way, you gain that much life."

But again, I can't find anything in the rules to back up either of these
readings. I'd like to understand how this works.

I looked through some older cards. Here are some other examples of similar
templating:

Respite
- Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt this turn. You gain 1 life
for each attacking creature.
If I understand correctly, if my opponent attacked with 4 Ornithopters and I
played Respite, I would gain no life, because the second part of the effect
wouldn't occur until the prevention "shield" was actually used, and since no
damage is being done, nothing is prevented.

Spore Cloud
- Tap all blocking creatures. Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt
this turn. Each attacking creature and each blocking creature doesn't untap
during its controller's next untap step.

Telekinesis
- Tap target creature. Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt by
that creature this turn. It doesn't untap during its controller's next two
untap steps.

And same here. The final part of the effect doesn't occur until the
prevention shield is actually used, and if no damage is dealt, the shield
isn't used.


I'm sure I'm missing something, I just want to know what I'm missing.
Thanks!
Peter

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Risser Family <news@nospam.com> sent:

Hallow {W} Instant
Prevent all damage target spell would deal this turn. You gain life
equal to the damage prevented this way.

>> You gain no life as Hallow resolves. In this example, you will later gain
>> life when the _Profane Prayers_ resolves. If there are still 6 Clerics in
>> play at that time, the Hallow shield changes what Profane Prayers' effect
>> is
>> into "Hallow's caster gains 6 life. Profane Prayers deals no damage.
>> Profane
>> Prayers' caster gains 6 life.".

>> >Or does the life gain wait until the damage is actually prevented, and if
>> >so, why?
>>
>> Yes, and because until the damage is actually prevented you have no
>> idea at all how much damage _Hallow_ will prevent. Also, remember that
>> Hallow might not be the only damage-prevention effect competing to
>> prevent damage from this spell; if the PP targetted a player, and that
>> player had a Circle: Black out and used it picking the PP as the
>> source, then that player gets to _choose_ whether the Hallow shield,
>> or the Circle shield, prevents the damage that the PP tries to deal
>> [419.9a].

> Okay, yeah, but, "Why?".

> The only things I can think of are:
> - The prevention is a replacement effect, and it replaces the damage done
> with "don't do damage, and also, gain that much life."
> - The life gain is a delayed triggered ability that really means "Whenever
> damage is prevented this way, you gain that much life."

The prevention is a prevention effect. It sits around the targeted
spell, watching for it dealing damage. Any time it tries to, that damage
is prevented, and you gain that much life.

> But again, I can't find anything in the rules to back up either of these
> readings. I'd like to understand how this works.

Well, it seems to me to fall mostly under 413.2b:

413.2b The controller of the spell or ability follows its
instructions in the order written. However, replacement effects may
modify these actions. In some cases, later text on the card may
modify the meaning of earlier text (for example, "Destroy target
creature. It can't be regenerated" or "Counter target spell. If you
do, put it on top of its owner's library instead of into its owner's
graveyard.") Don't just apply effects step by step without thinking
in these cases~Wread the whole text and apply the rules of English to
the text.

> I looked through some older cards. Here are some other examples of similar
> templating:

Respite {1}{G} Instant
Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt this turn. You gain 1
life for each attacking creature.

> If I understand correctly, if my opponent attacked with 4 Ornithopters and I
> played Respite, I would gain no life, because the second part of the effect
> wouldn't occur until the prevention "shield" was actually used, and since no
> damage is being done, nothing is prevented.

Well spotted. If read in exactly the same way as the previous card,
it would give you one life per attacking creature whenever combat damage
would be dealt this turn, and there is no combat damage to prevent.
This spell should probably have its abilities on separate lines to
clarify the intent. However, it is reasonable to interpret the spell
as intended by noting that there is no direct link between 'each attacking
creature' and 'all combat damage', whereas with Hallow there is indeed
a direct link between the damage prevented and the life gained, and so
Rule 413.2b is more likely to apply.

Spore Cloud {1}{G}{G} Instant
Tap all blocking creatures. Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt
this turn. Each attacking creature and each blocking creature doesn't untap
during its controller's next untap step.

Telekinesis
{U}{U}
Instant
Tap target creature. Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt by that
creature this turn. It doesn't untap during its controller's next two untap
steps.

> And same here. The final part of the effect doesn't occur until the
> prevention shield is actually used, and if no damage is dealt, the shield
> isn't used.

Again, read under the same interpretation as Hallow, this would be
correct, and the cards don't really need all the text in one line. The
intent is for it to be separate, and indeed it can be seen that there is
no direct link in the card that would tie the two effects together.

> I'm sure I'm missing something, I just want to know what I'm missing.
> Thanks!

I've had to resort to the easily-misused 413.2b to justify why these
things have their intended effects, and I'm not particularly happy with
it, but it's all I can think of right now that causes a difference in
interpretation between these cards. Maybe someone else has a different
take?

--
-- zoe

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Risser Family sez:

<<
>***
>Hallow {W}
>Instant
>Darksteel Common
>- Prevent all damage target spell would deal this turn.
>- You gain life equal to the damage prevented this way.
>***
>
>When do you gain the life?
>
>>

Whenever the prevention shield "activates". This is the same as saying: If
target spell would deal damage this turn, it deals no damage instead and you
gain life equal to the damage it would have dealt this way.

It may activate more than one time (Earthquake), but you'd still gain life this
way...(a 1-point Quake that's Hallow'ed gains you a minimum of 2 life...)


----
"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."
--Sigmund Freud
"Sometimes a cake is just a cake."
--Deanna Troi, Star Trek: TNG: "Phantasms"

 

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Arkady Zilberberg wrote:

> Does it mean that Hallow can prevent combat damage from creatures with
> Haste as well? (By casting it in response to, say, Viashino Sandstalker)
> It does say "all damage"...

Heh. Funny idea for a deck ...

Hallow on an Isochron Scepter, and Mass Hysteria. All my creatures have
haste. All yours do, too, but I can konk yours on the head with the
Hallowed Stick so that attacking isn't as attractive ...

--
(Posted from an account used as a SPAM dump. If you really want to get
in touch with me, dump the 'jboes' and substitute 'mur'.)
________
Jeffery Boes <>< jboes@qtm.net

 

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Risser Family <news@nospam.com> wrote:
>> >Or does the life gain wait until the damage is actually prevented, and if
>> >so, why?
>>
>> Yes, and because until the damage is actually prevented you have no idea at
>> all how much damage _Hallow_ will prevent.
>
>Okay, yeah, but, "Why?".

Again - because until the damage is actually -=prevented=-? You have _no
idea at all how much damage Hallow's shield is going to prevent_. You do NOT
know ahead of time what will actually happen, even if you think you do;
any number of things could intervene in between making the shield and using
it. Thus the life can't possibly be gained _while making the shield_.

>The only things I can think of are:
> - The prevention is a replacement effect, and it replaces the damage done
>with "don't do damage, and also, gain that much life."

Yes.

> - The life gain is a delayed triggered ability that really means "Whenever
>damage is prevented this way, you gain that much life."

Nope; that would be worded that way on Hallow. This is all one prevention /
replacement ability; when that replacement shield is _used_ it prevents the
damage and gives the lifegain.

Earlier when the shield is _made_, it doesn't prevent any damage then, and
also doesn't give any lifegain then.

>But again, I can't find anything in the rules to back up either of these
>readings. I'd like to understand how this works.

Look at any of: Sacred Boon; Scars of the Veteran; Awe Strike; Cho-Arrim
Alchemist; Reverse Damage; Samite Ministration; and Shadowbane. All of those
have damage-prevention effects which do something else equal to the amount
of damage prevented; all of them work this way - the something else is done
in addition to preventing the damage when the shield is used, not earlier when
making the shield. Also see Debt of Loyalty.

>Respite
> - Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt this turn. You gain 1 life
>for each attacking creature.

This does not tie the life gain to the damage prevention in any way; it does
not say "You gain life equal to the damage prevented this way". So it has
no reason to wait and see how much damage is prevented before giving you
the life; the lifegain is not set up as part of making the shield, it's a
separate effect of the spell, side by side with making the shield.

>Spore Cloud
> - Tap all blocking creatures. Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt
>this turn. Each attacking creature and each blocking creature doesn't untap
>during its controller's next untap step.
>Telekinesis
> - Tap target creature. Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt by
>that creature this turn. It doesn't untap during its controller's next two
>untap steps.

Again, neither the tapping nor the doesn't-untapping here is tied in any way
to preventing the damage.

>And same here. The final part of the effect doesn't occur until the
>prevention shield is actually used, and if no damage is dealt, the shield
>isn't used.

Nope. Nothing about not untapping here depends in any way on finding out
whether ANY damage was prevented, or how much. Whereas "Gain life equal to the
damage prevented this way" or "Put that many +1/+1 counters on that creature"
need to know how much damage _gets prevented by this particular shield_ or
else they can't do their effect at all, and they have no way to know IN ADVANCE
how much will actually get prevented.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Arkady Zilberberg <arkadyz1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>DD> Hallow W Instant
>DD> Prevent all damage target spell would deal this turn. You gain
>DD> life equal to the damage prevented this way.
>
>DD> If for some reason the spell manages to try to deal damage more
>DD> than once this turn - if, say, this was a Thrashing Wumpus spell which
>DD> becomes a Thrashing Wumpus creature [the shield will follow the Wumpus
>DD> into play and still prevent damage from it -this turn-, per 419.8a
>
>Whoa!
>I'm learning something new about this game every day! Although the rule
>(419.8a) is crystal clear, the example above is in fact very
>counterintuitive and I can imagine that not all judges would rule it the
>correct way in the heat of the Magic duel.

Right. It's _not_ something you run into all that often, mostly because
prevention effects that pick sources _usually_ get to pick sources in play
if they need to. Hallow _can't_ do that. 419.8a also might apply to, for
example, your Circle: Blue when it gets Disenchanted in response to a
Mahamoti Djinn spell - you can still pick the creature -spell- on the stack
as the required blue source. But usually this sort of time constraint -
'make the shield now because you won't be able to later once the Djinn is
in play' - doesn't apply and you could perfectly well use the Circle a
bit later once the Djinn was a creature... but that's not possible for
Hallow at all.

>Does it mean that Hallow can prevent combat damage from creatures with
>Haste as well? (By casting it in response to, say, Viashino Sandstalker)
>It does say "all damage"...

Yep. That same turn, anyway.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Andy Jakcsy <djaxmann@aol.computer> wrote:
>It may activate more than one time (Earthquake), but you'd still gain life this
>way...(a 1-point Quake that's Hallow'ed gains you a minimum of 2 life...)

Assuming no other damage-prevention shields, of course. If opponent has one
to use, they're likely to use -that- shield rather than Hallow's to prevent
the Earthquake's damage to them...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

> Again - because until the damage is actually -=prevented=-? You have _no
> idea at all how much damage Hallow's shield is going to prevent_. You do
NOT
> know ahead of time what will actually happen, even if you think you do;
> any number of things could intervene in between making the shield and
using
> it. Thus the life can't possibly be gained _while making the shield_.
>
> >The only things I can think of are:
> > - The prevention is a replacement effect, and it replaces the damage
done
> >with "don't do damage, and also, gain that much life."
>
> Yes.

Basically, it seems to be a "common sense" reading of the rule: if you can
make sense of it without knowing how much damage would be prevented, then
you go ahead and do it on resolution. If it depends on the number, then it
actually gets tied to the prevention shield, so read it like "and" or a
comma is in place instead of a period.

Really, I was looking for a rules citation to back this up, but there
doesn't seem to be one, except possibly the "common sense" one someone
quoted earlier.

Thanks.
Peter

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Arkady Zilberberg sez:

<<
> Does it mean that Hallow can prevent combat damage from creatures with
> Haste as well? (By casting it in response to, say, Viashino Sandstalker)
> It does say "all damage"...

>>

I don't THINK so, since once the Sandstalker hits the table, it's not a spell
anymore. But, of course, I'm not sure...


----
"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."
--Sigmund Freud
"Sometimes a cake is just a cake."
--Deanna Troi, Star Trek: TNG: "Phantasms"

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Andy Jakcsy wrote:

> I don't THINK so, since once the Sandstalker hits the table, it's not
> a spell anymore. But, of course, I'm not sure...

The Sandstalker is still just a spell while on the stack so if you play it
correctly, Hallow will work. With any luck, it'll annoy the hell out of your
opponent as well. ;-)

--
Gravity: it's not just a good idea, it's the law.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David DeLaney sez:

<<
>Look at any of: Sacred Boon; Scars of the Veteran; Awe Strike; Cho-Arrim
>Alchemist; Reverse Damage; Samite Ministration; and Shadowbane. All of those
>have damage-prevention effects which do something else equal to the amount
>of damage prevented; all of them work this way - the something else is done
>in addition to preventing the damage when the shield is used, not earlier when
>making the shield. Also see Debt of Loyalty.

>
>>

Also Honorable Passage, Temper, Test of Faith, and Bone Mask. (Test of Faith
is from Darksteel, and is basically an improved Sacred Boon.)

Speaking of Sacred Boon, it and Scars of the Veteran actually DO have delayed
triggered abilities, since the counters don't go on until the end of turn step
begins. But the damage still has to be prevented. In this way, Test of Faith
is different, because there the counters go on immediately upon prevention.
And that means the counters could go on at different times. For instance, if
you respond to a Shock with ToF, the creature gets 2 counters now. If later in
the turn the same creature gets Shocked again,
that creature gets 1 counter and 1 damage.


----
"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."
--Sigmund Freud
"Sometimes a cake is just a cake."
--Deanna Troi, Star Trek: TNG: "Phantasms"

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hello, Andy!
You wrote on 15 Apr 2004 03:56:54 GMT:

AJ> Arkady Zilberberg sez:

AJ> <<
>> Does it mean that Hallow can prevent combat damage from creatures
>> with
>> Haste as well? (By casting it in response to, say, Viashino
>> Sandstalker)
>> It does say "all damage"...

AJ> I don't THINK so, since once the Sandstalker hits the table,
AJ> it's not a spell
AJ> anymore. But, of course, I'm not sure...

I did say "casting it in response" - casting it while Viashino
Sandstalker is still on the stack, targeting the creature SPELL. As
rule 419.8a says, Hallow's prevention effect will track the Sandstalker
down to its permanent state and apply to it (so it will be pointless to
attack with it that turn). And at the end of the turn the Sandstalker
jumps back to its owner's hand...

Regards,
Arkady.