Multiple imprints on Spellweaver Helix

Toggle sidebar Toggle sidebar
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

I've seen a few posts recently on multiple imprints on Duplicant,
which got me thinking about other multiple imprints. The one which
most intrigued me was Spellweaver Helix. The situation is as follows.
I have Helix in play, alongside a March of the Machines and an Astral
Slide. I cycle a card, and slide out my 3/3 Helix creature. When it
returns to play, I assume the imprint ability goes through and two
extra sorceries are put on Helix. My
question is what happens when one of the four imprinted sorceries are
played. Do I get the option of any of the other three spells
imprinted, or is there something I'm missing?

Spellweaver Helix
{3}
Artifact
Imprint -- When Spellweaver Helix comes into play, you may remove two
target sorcery cards in a single graveyard from the game. (The removed
cards are imprinted on this artifact.)
Whenever a card is played, if it has the same name as one of the
imprinted sorcery cards, you may copy the other and play the copy
without paying its mana cost.



March of the Machines
{3}{U}
Enchantment
Each noncreature artifact is an artifact creature with power and
toughness each equal to its converted mana cost. (Equipment that's a
creature can't equip a creature.)

Astral Slide
{2}{W}
Enchantment
Whenever a player cycles a card, you may remove target creature from
the game. If you do, return that creature to play under its owner's
control at end of turn.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

barry@bobbybarrett.cjb.net (Barry Bobbit) writes:
> I've seen a few posts recently on multiple imprints on Duplicant,
> which got me thinking about other multiple imprints. The one which
> most intrigued me was Spellweaver Helix. The situation is as follows.
> I have Helix in play, alongside a March of the Machines and an Astral
> Slide. I cycle a card, and slide out my 3/3 Helix creature. When it
> returns to play, I assume the imprint ability goes through and two
> extra sorceries are put on Helix.

The Helix is coming into play, so you may remove two sorcery cards in
a graveyard from the game to imprint on it.

> My question is what happens when one of the four imprinted sorceries
> are played. Do I get the option of any of the other three spells
> imprinted, or is there something I'm missing?

You're missing something. There are only two imprinted sorceries on
the Helix. When something changes zones, it loses all memory of what
it was before (with a few exceptions, like spells to in-play, phasing,
and when a card triggers on the zone-change). So, the two cards that
were imprinted on Helix-before-slide are gone forever in the RFG-zone
(barring a Wish-effect), and there are two completely separate cards
imprinted on this Helix-after-slide.

If you did manage to get more than 2 sorcery cards imprinted on it
(through the same kind of copy-card madness that we were using on the
Duplicant), then I believe that whenever one of the cards is played,
you may choose one of the others to copy.

--
Peter C.
"Did the table do something wrong?"
-- Troi, "Birthright, Part 1", Star Trek, The Next Generation
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Peter Cooper Jr. wrote:

> You're missing something. There are only two imprinted sorceries on
> the Helix. When something changes zones, it loses all memory of what
> it was before (with a few exceptions, like spells to in-play, phasing,
> and when a card triggers on the zone-change).

Not that I'm arguing with the well-established behavior of Astral Slide but
just how did this whole "it's a new creature" thing come about? The text on
the card says "return that creature to play under its owner's control at end
of turn."

The words "return that creature to play" strongly hint at returning *that*
creature to play, not a copy of that creature or even a new instance of that
creature.

This is something I've always been curious about so I figured I'd ask since
it's being discussed.


--
Gravity: it's not just a good idea, it's the law.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hello, Zaxx!
You wrote on Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:01:48 -0500:

Z> Not that I'm arguing with the well-established behavior of Astral
Z> Slide but
Z> just how did this whole "it's a new creature" thing come about?
Z> The text on
Z> the card says "return that creature to play under its owner's
Z> control at end
Z> of turn."

This should answer your question:

217.5c Whenever a permanent enters the in-play zone, it's considered a
brand-new permanent and has no relationship to any previous permanent
represented by the same object. This is also true for any objects
entering any zone (see rule 217.1c).

Of course, Phasing rules specifically say otherwise so phasing
permanents *do* remember their previous state...

Regards,
Arkady.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"Zaxx" <bogus@cox.net> writes:
> Peter Cooper Jr. wrote:
>> When something changes zones, it loses all memory of what it was
>> before (with a few exceptions, like spells to in-play, phasing, and
>> when a card triggers on the zone-change).
>
> Not that I'm arguing with the well-established behavior of Astral
> Slide but just how did this whole "it's a new creature" thing come
> about?

Well, it's nothing new, but Astral Slide's popularity has made many
people ask more questions about some of the implications of moving
cards around.

> The text on the card says "return that creature to play under its
> owner's control at end of turn."
>
> The words "return that creature to play" strongly hint at returning
> *that* creature to play, not a copy of that creature or even a new
> instance of that creature.

Well, it probably ought to say "that object" or somesuch, although
then it might be even more confusing. But if I animate a land with
Vivify (Target land becomes a 3/3 creature until end of turn. It's
still a land.), and then Astral Slide it out, it will still get
returned at end of turn, even though it isn't a creature in the RFG
zone and it won't be one once it comes back. So the word "creature"
there is to try to make the English sound better, not to indicate that
it's the "same" creature in any way. Counters/Enchantments/Equipments
leave it when it leaves play, don't they? Why not effects, too?

Here's the relevant rule:

,----[ Magic Comp. Rules (http://www.wizards.com/magic/comprules) ]
| 217.1c An object that moves from one zone to another is treated as a
| new object. Effects connected with its previous location will no
| longer affect it. There are two exceptions to this rule: Effects
| that edit the characteristics of an artifact, creature, or
| enchantment spell on the stack will continue to apply to the
| permanent that spell creates, and abilities that trigger when an
| object moves from one zone to another (for example, "When Rancor is
| put into a graveyard from play") can find the object in the zone it
| moved to when the ability triggered.
`----

> This is something I've always been curious about so I figured I'd
> ask since it's being discussed.

Please, as always, ask away. (Not that you seem to have any
reservations about asking questions in the first place)

--
Peter C.
"I have discovered a strange level of sleep deprivation in which I do
not randomly fall asleep and yet am completely incapable of
intelligent thought..." -- Jessi
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

> I've seen a few posts recently on multiple imprints on Duplicant,
> which got me thinking about other multiple imprints. The one which
> most intrigued me was Spellweaver Helix. The situation is as follows.
> I have Helix in play, alongside a March of the Machines and an Astral
> Slide. I cycle a card, and slide out my 3/3 Helix creature. When it
> returns to play, I assume the imprint ability goes through and two
> extra sorceries are put on Helix. My
> question is what happens when one of the four imprinted sorceries are
> played. Do I get the option of any of the other three spells
> imprinted, or is there something I'm missing?

Hmm. I don't think this works, as when the card comes back into play, it's
not the "same" artifact, so it won't remember the previously imprinted
cards.

I'm pretty sure that's the case, and I don't have time to find the citing.
Let's let the official judges have their say.

Peter
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 14 Apr 2004 10:49:27 -0700, Barry Bobbit <barry@bobbybarrett.cjb.net> wrote:
>I've seen a few posts recently on multiple imprints on Duplicant,
>which got me thinking about other multiple imprints. The one which
>most intrigued me was Spellweaver Helix.

You get to play one of the imprinted cards, and not the one that triggered
it either.

>The situation is as follows.
>I have Helix in play, alongside a March of the Machines and an Astral
>Slide. I cycle a card, and slide out my 3/3 Helix creature. When it
>returns to play, I assume the imprint ability goes through and two
>extra sorceries are put on Helix.

Not "extra". The moment the Helix left play? It -forgets everything- about
having been in play ever before. It forgets, in particular, which two
RFG cards were imprinted on it while it was previously in play. You can
certainly Imprint two more on it when it comes into play again, but this
will be a "fresh" Helix, shiny and new, without anything left over. Even
though it's the same CARD, it's a different PERMANENT when it returns.

The only way to have a Helix leave play and "remember" its Imprinted cards?
Is to phase it out (which nothing does except stuff from Mirage block and
two very early cards, none of which were ever reprinted). And when it
phases in again, its Imprint ability will NOT trigger.

It's certainly possible to get more than two cards Imprinted on the Helix,
but having it leave play is not the way to do so. (March of the Machines,
oddly, is fairly essential, or something that also can animate artifacts,
in the solution...)

>My question is what happens when one of the four imprinted sorceries are
>played. Do I get the option of any of the other three spells
>imprinted, or is there something I'm missing?

You get the option of any one of the other three spells to copy and play,
correct.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:01:48 -0500, Zaxx <bogus@cox.net> wrote:
>Peter Cooper Jr. wrote:
>> You're missing something. There are only two imprinted sorceries on
>> the Helix. When something changes zones, it loses all memory of what
>> it was before (with a few exceptions, like spells to in-play, phasing,
>> and when a card triggers on the zone-change).
>
>Not that I'm arguing with the well-established behavior of Astral Slide but
>just how did this whole "it's a new creature" thing come about? The text on
>the card says "return that creature to play under its owner's control at end
>of turn."

That's Editing, and we can't get them to stop doing that. "That <foo>", in
Magic, has the meaning "the object which last time this text referred to it
was a <foo>". It has nothing to do with "is it NOW a <foo>?" or even "is
it the same permanent as before?". Anything that's put into play that would
be a creature once IN play is referred to, in general, by Editing as "that
creature" - "when a creature is put into your graveyard from play, you may
sacrifice Angelic Renewal. If you do, return that creature to play" for
example.

This does not mean either that "that creature" _is_ currently a creature,
_or_ that it's got any memory left of the last time the text referred to it.

>The words "return that creature to play" strongly hint at returning *that*
>creature to play, not a copy of that creature or even a new instance of that
>creature.

You can't _ever_ 'return that creature to play', because it STOPPED BEING
a creature the moment it left play. And we know it hints strongly at this,
and is confusing, and we can't get them to not word it that way.

Believe me, the game is much easier to deal with if you don't have to track
what did what in each zone it goes into for the whole game long. In some
zones it's _not possible_ to so track it - hand and library are -not revealed
zones-. So to save time the standard is that ANY time an object changes zones
it "forgets everything", including whether it was in the last zone, with only
two exceptions: phasing in and out, and going from the stack to in-play.

(Some -abilities- can track things between zones; that's different than the
object itself remembering stuff. An Imprint card knows what's Imprinted on
it, while the cards over in the RFG zone literally have no idea there's a
card in play they're associated with, for example; an ability that triggers
off something going to the graveyard can track that something there, though
the card that's itself going can't remember anything once it's in the
graveyard. See the differences here?)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Barry Bobbit sez:

<<
>I've seen a few posts recently on multiple imprints on Duplicant,
>which got me thinking about other multiple imprints. The one which
>most intrigued me was Spellweaver Helix. The situation is as follows.
>I have Helix in play, alongside a March of the Machines and an Astral
>Slide. I cycle a card, and slide out my 3/3 Helix creature. When it
>returns to play, I assume the imprint ability goes through and two
>extra sorceries are put on Helix.
>
>>

You assume ALMOST right. Two sorceries CAN be imprinted on the Helix, yes.
But by sliding it out, you've just lost the two sorceries that WERE imprinted
on the Helix. Slide is not Phasing. (In fact, I'm kind of wondering myself
how Imprinted cards interact with Phasing.)

<<
>My
>question is what happens when one of the four imprinted sorceries are
>played. Do I get the option of any of the other three spells
>imprinted, or is there something I'm missing?
>
>>

What you're missing is above. There are only two sorceries imprinted on the
Helix at any one time.


----
"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."
--Sigmund Freud
"Sometimes a cake is just a cake."
--Deanna Troi, Star Trek: TNG: "Phantasms"
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Zaxx sez:

<<
>
>Not that I'm arguing with the well-established behavior of Astral Slide but
>just how did this whole "it's a new creature" thing come about? The text on
>the card says "return that creature to play under its owner's control at end
>of turn."
>

>>

It does that to be simple, although it probably should say "return that
creature card to play under its owner's control" to signify that it's no longer
the same creature...

And besides, it really is simpler to keep track of all the Magic stuff if we
just wipe the slate clean when permanents leave play. Some other games might
not (Legend of the Five Rings is one), but Magic does.


----
"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."
--Sigmund Freud
"Sometimes a cake is just a cake."
--Deanna Troi, Star Trek: TNG: "Phantasms"
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Andy Jakcsy <djaxmann@aol.computer> wrote:
>You assume ALMOST right. Two sorceries CAN be imprinted on the Helix, yes.
>But by sliding it out, you've just lost the two sorceries that WERE imprinted
>on the Helix. Slide is not Phasing. (In fact, I'm kind of wondering myself
>how Imprinted cards interact with Phasing.)

While in the phased-out zone nothing in particular is Imprinted on them;
their abilities don't work there. Once they have phased back in, though,
they remember just fine which card(s) in the RFG zone were/are removed by
their Imprint ability, and thus are Imprinted on them. Once they're back it's
much like they never left, in other words; you'll actually get a lot of the
complex stuff about phasing right using that as a rule of thought...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

TRENDING THREADS

Latest posts

Moderators online

Share this page

COMPANY
RESOURCES
FOLLOW
Top Bottom