Damage Prevention "Damage Shield"

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

a situation arose recently...

i had a Master Healer in play.

my opponent had a couple of different creatures on the board, one of
them was equipped with a Specters Shroud, one of them was a Thieving
Magpie.

when he declared his attack, i announced that i would use the Master
Healer.

so how does damage prevention work in regards to triggered effects due
to combat damage?

i understand that it my opponent was dealing damage equal to or less
than the amount of damage that i prvent them no damage is done, and
therefore none of the triggered effects take place... but lets's say
that he was doing 6 damage, with 4 creatures.

do i (as the defending player) get to decide what order the damage is
being done to me, or does the attacking player make that call?

if you were being attacked by 4 creature for 2 points of damage each
(total 8) can you choose to prevent 1 damage from each creature?

we got a reply from Wizards on this that was pretty ambigous, so i
really do appreciate you guys taking the time to help me out with this.
i'm sure that it's a Priority issue, and i'm very much looking forward
to seeing the outcome...

-Cannibal-

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Cannibal <cannibal@cox.net> wrote:

> a situation arose recently...
>
> i had a Master Healer in play.
>
> my opponent had a couple of different creatures on the board, one of
> them was equipped with a Specters Shroud, one of them was a Thieving
> Magpie.

Specter's Shroud
{2}
Artifact -- Equipment
Equipped creature gets +1/+0.
Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player, that player
discards a card from his or her hand.
Equip {1} ({1}: Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a
sorcery. This card comes into play unattached and stays in play if the
creature leaves play.)

Thieving Magpie
{2}{U}{U}
Creature -- Bird
1/3
Flying
Whenever Thieving Magpie deals damage to an opponent, you draw a card.

> when he declared his attack, i announced that i would use the Master
> Healer.

Master Healer
{4}{W}
Creature -- Cleric
1/4
{T}: Prevent the next 4 damage that would be dealt to target creature or
player this turn.

> so how does damage prevention work in regards to triggered effects due
> to combat damage?

Prevented damage is nonexistant damage and triggers nothing.

419.5. If an event is prevented or replaced, it never happens. A
modified event occurs instead, which may in turn trigger abilities. Note
that the modified event may contain instructions that can't be carried
out, in which case the player simply ignores the impossible instruction.

419.5a If a source would deal 0 damage, it does not deal damage at all.
That means abilities that trigger on damage being dealt won't trigger.
It also means that replacement effects that increase damage dealt have
no event to replace when 0 damage is dealt, so they have no effect.

> i understand that it my opponent was dealing damage equal to or less
> than the amount of damage that i prvent them no damage is done, and
> therefore none of the triggered effects take place... but lets's say
> that he was doing 6 damage, with 4 creatures.
>
> do i (as the defending player) get to decide what order the damage is
> being done to me, or does the attacking player make that call?

No, it's simultaneous.

310.4. Combat damage resolves as an object on the stack. When it
resolves, it's all dealt at once, as originally assigned. After combat
damage finishes resolving, the active player gets priority.

> if you were being attacked by 4 creature for 2 points of damage each
> (total 8) can you choose to prevent 1 damage from each creature?

419.7b Some prevention effects refer to a specific amount of damage--for
example, "Prevent the next 3 damage that would be dealt to target
creature or player this turn." These work like shields. Each 1 damage
that would be dealt to the "shielded" creature or player is prevented.
Preventing 1 damage reduces the remaining shield by 1. If damage would
be dealt to the shielded creature or player by two or more sources at
the same time, the player or the controller of the creature chooses
which damage the shield prevents first. Once the shield has been reduced
to 0, any remaining damage is dealt normally. Such effects count only
the amount of damage; the number of events or sources dealing it doesn't
matter.

Okay, the rule isn't clear on whether you could do what you want or
would have to choose two of the attacking creatures to have their damage
prevented. But it is clear that you make whatever decision there is.

Since it talks about preventing 1 damage at a time, I would say that you
could allocation the individual points of prevention without being
obligated to completely prevent one source before going on to the next.

> we got a reply from Wizards on this that was pretty ambigous, so i
> really do appreciate you guys taking the time to help me out with this.
> i'm sure that it's a Priority issue, and i'm very much looking forward
> to seeing the outcome...

Priority applies to playing spells and activated abilities. It has
nothing to do with handling replacement/prevention effects that are
already in place.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hello, Cannibal!
You wrote on Wed, 21 Apr 2004 10:57:50 -0400:

C> a situation arose recently...

C> i had a Master Healer in play.

C> my opponent had a couple of different creatures on the board, one
C> of
C> them was equipped with a Specters Shroud, one of them was a
C> Thieving
C> Magpie.

C> when he declared his attack, i announced that i would use the
C> Master
C> Healer.

C> so how does damage prevention work in regards to triggered
C> effects due
C> to combat damage?

I think the following rule should clear things for you:
419.7b Some prevention effects refer to a specific amount of damage-for
example, "Prevent the next 3 damage that would be dealt to target
creature or player this turn." These work like shields. Each 1 damage
that would be dealt to the "shielded" creature or player is prevented.
Preventing 1 damage reduces the remaining shield by 1. If damage would
be dealt to the shielded creature or player by two or more sources at
the same time, the player or the controller of the creature chooses
which damage the shield prevents first. Once the shield has been reduced
to 0, any remaining damage is dealt normally. Such effects count only
the amount of damage; the number of events or sources dealing it doesn't
matter.

Since Master Healer specifies just the "next 4 damage" and combat damage
is dealt as a single event ("at the same time", see above), you (the
player who is about to receive damage) choose which damage you prevent
and which you don't. If a damage from a creature is fully prevented
(reduced to zero), it *has never happened* and thus does not trigger any
abilities...

Regards,
Arkady.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Cannibal wrote:

> a situation arose recently...
>
> i had a Master Healer in play.
>
> my opponent had a couple of different creatures on the board, one of
> them was equipped with a Specters Shroud, one of them was a Thieving
> Magpie.
>
> when he declared his attack, i announced that i would use the Master
> Healer.
>
> so how does damage prevention work in regards to triggered effects due
> to combat damage?

If an effect is triggered by combat damage being dealt, it will not
trigger if all the damage is prevented, as damage that is prevented
never gets dealt.
>
> i understand that it my opponent was dealing damage equal to or less
> than the amount of damage that i prvent them no damage is done, and
> therefore none of the triggered effects take place... but lets's say
> that he was doing 6 damage, with 4 creatures.
>
> do i (as the defending player) get to decide what order the damage is
> being done to me, or does the attacking player make that call?
>
When damage is being prevented, and there is a choice as to which
damage to prevent, the player being damaged or the controller of
the creature(s) being damaged gets to determine which damage is
prevented.

> if you were being attacked by 4 creature for 2 points of damage each
> (total 8) can you choose to prevent 1 damage from each creature?

Yes. Or whatever pattern you decide.
>
> we got a reply from Wizards on this that was pretty ambigous, so i
> really do appreciate you guys taking the time to help me out with this.
> i'm sure that it's a Priority issue, and i'm very much looking forward
> to seeing the outcome...
>
> -Cannibal-

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 10:57:50 -0400, Cannibal <cannibal@cox.net> wrote:


>
>do i (as the defending player) get to decide what order the damage is
>being done to me, or does the attacking player make that call?

All damage is done simultaneously*. You, as the controller of the
ability that is preventing the damage, get to decide which damage gets
prevented.

*Exception: Attackers with first- (or double-) strike assign and deal
their combat damage before attackers without first- (or double-)
strike. You still get to decide what damage gets prevented. (However,
if you decline to prevent damage done by first-strikers, your creature
might not survive long enough to get to the "normal" combat steps...)

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Mark Landin wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 10:57:50 -0400, Cannibal <cannibal@cox.net> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>do i (as the defending player) get to decide what order the damage is
>>being done to me, or does the attacking player make that call?
>
> All damage is done simultaneously*. You, as the controller of the
> ability that is preventing the damage, get to decide which damage gets
> prevented.
>
Incorrect. The player who is receiving (or whose creatures are receiving)
the damage gets to decide which damage is prevented. Here, that's the same
thing, but it isn't always...
--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Cannibal <cannibal@cox.net> sent:
> a situation arose recently...

> i had a Master Healer in play.

Master Healer {4}{W} Creature -- Cleric 1/4
{T}: Prevent the next 4 damage that would be dealt to target creature
or player this turn.

> my opponent had a couple of different creatures on the board, one of
> them was equipped with a Specters Shroud, one of them was a Thieving
> Magpie.

Specter's Shroud {2} Artifact -- Equipment
Equipped creature gets +1/+0.
Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player, that
player discards a card from his or her hand.
Equip {1}

Thieving Magpie {2}{U}{U} Creature -- Bird 1/3
Flying
Whenever Thieving Magpie deals damage to an opponent, you draw a card.

If a creature has its damage prevented, or it tries to deal 0 damage,
then that's not actually dealing any damage, and things that trigger
on damage being dealt won't trigger.

> when he declared his attack, i announced that i would use the Master
> Healer.

Presumably on yourself, preventing the next 4 damage to yourself this
turn.

> so how does damage prevention work in regards to triggered effects due
> to combat damage?

Well, damage prevention sets up prevention shields. When the event
being prevented would occur, the shield edits it so that it doesn't
occur. The player being affected, or the controller of the creature
being affected, decides how to apply shields:

419.7b Some prevention effects refer to a specific amount of
damage - for example, "Prevent the next 3 damage that would be dealt
to target creature or player this turn." These work like shields.
Each 1 damage that would be dealt to the "shielded" creature or
player is prevented. Preventing 1 damage reduces the remaining
shield by 1. If damage would be dealt to the shielded creature or
player by two or more sources at the same time, the player or the
controller of the creature chooses which damage the shield prevents
first. Once the shield has been reduced to 0, any remaining damage is
dealt normally. Such effects count only the amount of damage; the
number of events or sources dealing it doesn't matter.

And in more general terms:

419.9a If two or more replacement or prevention effects are
attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player,
the affected object's controller (or its owner if it has no
controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply. Then the
other effect applies if it is still appropriate. If one or more of
the applicable replacement effects is a self-replacement effect (see
rule 419.6d), that effect is applied before any other replacement
effects. If both players have to make these choices at the same time,
follow the "Active Player, Nonactive Player rule" (see rule 103.4).

So, if there are more points of damage to prevent than the amount of
shield remaining, you get to choose which points of damage to prevent.
In the example you give, suppose the creature equipped by the Shroud
would normally be 3/3, so it's currently 4/3. You could prevent all
of its damage and take damage from the Magpie; in this case, the Magpie
ability would trigger. Or, you could prevent 3 of the damage from the
Shrouded creature and 1 from the Magpie; the Shroud's ability would then
trigger.

> i understand that it my opponent was dealing damage equal to or less
> than the amount of damage that i prvent them no damage is done, and
> therefore none of the triggered effects take place... but lets's say
> that he was doing 6 damage, with 4 creatures.

> do i (as the defending player) get to decide what order the damage is
> being done to me, or does the attacking player make that call?

Barring first/double strike, the damage is dealt all at the same time.
You get to choose the order in which to apply each point of damage
prevention remaining in the shield that you set up, and then anything
not prevented will actually be dealt once you've finished editing the
damage event.

> if you were being attacked by 4 creature for 2 points of damage each
> (total 8) can you choose to prevent 1 damage from each creature?

Yes. Note that you choose what to prevent right as the damage happens,
you don't lock this choice in ahead of time.

> we got a reply from Wizards on this that was pretty ambigous, so i
> really do appreciate you guys taking the time to help me out with this.
> i'm sure that it's a Priority issue, and i'm very much looking forward
> to seeing the outcome...

It's not really anything to do with priority. It's to do with who is
or controls (or in some cases, owns) the thing being shielded by the
replacement or prevention.

--
-- zoe

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 10:57:50 -0400, Cannibal <cannibal@cox.net> wrote:
>i had a Master Healer in play.
>
>my opponent had a couple of different creatures on the board, one of
>them was equipped with a Specters Shroud, one of them was a Thieving
>Magpie.
>
>when he declared his attack, i announced that i would use the Master
>Healer.
>
>so how does damage prevention work in regards to triggered effects due
>to combat damage?

Damage that gets prevented entirely is never dealt, so can't trigger anything
that triggers when damage, or combat damage, is dealt.

Damage that is partly but not completely prevented is dealt in the reduced
amount, and will trigger damage-triggered abilities in the normal manner.

>i understand that it my opponent was dealing damage equal to or less
>than the amount of damage that i prvent them no damage is done, and
>therefore none of the triggered effects take place... but lets's say
>that he was doing 6 damage, with 4 creatures.
>
>do i (as the defending player) get to decide what order the damage is
>being done to me, or does the attacking player make that call?

_If_ there is some sort of choice as to which points of damage to prevent,
then the player being damaged, or the controller of the creature being
damaged, makes that call. (Not the controller of the creature, spell, or
ability dealing the damage.)

Master Healer 4W Creature -- Cleric
1/4 Tap: Prevent the next 4 damage that would be dealt to target creature or
player this turn.

Master Healer is preventing damage based on what it tries to get dealt -to-,
not on where it's trying to get dealt -from- (it doesn't say to choose a
source and prevent all damage from that source, for example). I'm assuming
here you chose to target yourself with his ability. In which case, yes, if
there's 6 combat damage being dealt to you all at once, you choose -which- 4
points to prevent out of that 6, and can pick one of them to be the point
from the Thieving Magpie. If the Shrouded creature is dealing 3 or less, you
can prevent all its damage too, making both abilities unable to trigger.

[Note that if the 6 damage is, say, 3 first strike and 3 "normal", then you
have to prevent the three first strike, because it's being dealt -first-
and you apply a 'prevent the next 4' shield to it, getting it all... and
you're left with a "prevent the next 1" shield to use on the other 3.]

>if you were being attacked by 4 creature for 2 points of damage each
>(total 8) can you choose to prevent 1 damage from each creature?

Yes.

>we got a reply from Wizards on this that was pretty ambigous, so i
>really do appreciate you guys taking the time to help me out with this.
>i'm sure that it's a Priority issue, and i'm very much looking forward
>to seeing the outcome...

Actually has nothing at all to do with priority (nobody has priority at
the time the damage is getting prevented) or with whose turn it is either,
or with who controls the creatures the damage is coming _from_, for Master
Healer. Check 419.7b for exact wording details.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:21:33 -0400, Chris Mattern
<matternc@comcast.net> wrote:

>Mark Landin wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 10:57:50 -0400, Cannibal <cannibal@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>do i (as the defending player) get to decide what order the damage is
>>>being done to me, or does the attacking player make that call?
>>
>> All damage is done simultaneously*. You, as the controller of the
>> ability that is preventing the damage, get to decide which damage gets
>> prevented.
>>
>Incorrect. The player who is receiving (or whose creatures are receiving)
>the damage gets to decide which damage is prevented. Here, that's the same
>thing, but it isn't always...

Thanks for the clarification.