+1/+1 counters - strange mechanic?

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

I really don't like the mechanic for +1/+1 counters in Magic.
Normally, everything needs a 'legal target' etc. in magic. E.g.
an 'enchant creature' card will drop off and go to the graveyard,
when the enchanted permanent stops being a creature; the same holds
for equipment. Other spells simply have no effect and go to the
graveyard if their target is no longer in play, becomes an illegal
target etc. etc.

But: +1/+1 counters stay on the permanent, even if the permanent
isn't a creature anymore. (E.g. 'Darksteel Brute'; put counters
on it when it is a creature and they will stay on it even after
the end of turn.)

Is this really a good mechanic? Is there some deeper reason, why
counters behave so (IMO) totally different (compared to equipment,
enchantments etc.)?

E.g. when I read the card text of 'Dismantle' for the first time,
I thought there is a mistake in the text (and it should say
'... on an artifact *creature* you control'). Now I have the
feeling, that the card text was formulated in that way especially
for 'Darksteel Brute'.

I love Magic and I really like (most of) its rules. Could someone
help me to figure out why the rules for +1/+1 counters are the way
they are?

Thanks in advance for your answers! Nuff.



Cards mentioned above:

Darksteel Brute - Artifact - {2}
Darksteel Brute is indestructible.
{3}: Darksteel Brute becomes a 2/2 artifact creature until end
of turn.

Dismantle - Sorcery - {2}{R}
Destroy target artifact. If that artifact had counters on it,
put that many +1/+1 counters or charge counters on an artifact
you control.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Nuff Said wrote:

> I really don't like the mechanic for +1/+1 counters in Magic.
> Normally, everything needs a 'legal target' etc. in magic.

Um, no, it doesn't. Only enchantments being cast and spells/effects
that *say* "target" need legal targets.

> E.g.
> an 'enchant creature' card will drop off and go to the graveyard,
> when the enchanted permanent stops being a creature; the same holds
> for equipment.

Neither of which are targetting issues, I might add.

> Other spells

"Other spells"? Enchantments and equipments are not spells when they
are in play.

> simply have no effect and go to the
> graveyard if their target is no longer in play, becomes an illegal
> target etc. etc.

Assuming they have any targets; not all spells do.
>
> But: +1/+1 counters stay on the permanent, even if the permanent
> isn't a creature anymore. (E.g. 'Darksteel Brute'; put counters
> on it when it is a creature and they will stay on it even after
> the end of turn.)
>
> Is this really a good mechanic? Is there some deeper reason, why
> counters behave so (IMO) totally different (compared to equipment,
> enchantments etc.)?
>
> E.g. when I read the card text of 'Dismantle' for the first time,
> I thought there is a mistake in the text (and it should say
> '... on an artifact *creature* you control'). Now I have the
> feeling, that the card text was formulated in that way especially
> for 'Darksteel Brute'.
>
> I love Magic and I really like (most of) its rules. Could someone
> help me to figure out why the rules for +1/+1 counters are the way
> they are?
>
> Thanks in advance for your answers! Nuff.
>

I agree with Mr. Wiegert; it's because counters have never been
creature specific; many non-creature cards use counters of their
own, so +1/+1 counters can go on non-creature cards to keep them
consistent with other counters.
>
>
> Cards mentioned above:
>
> Darksteel Brute - Artifact - {2}
> Darksteel Brute is indestructible.
> {3}: Darksteel Brute becomes a 2/2 artifact creature until end
> of turn.
>
> Dismantle - Sorcery - {2}{R}
> Destroy target artifact. If that artifact had counters on it,
> put that many +1/+1 counters or charge counters on an artifact
> you control.

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

> E.g. when I read the card text of 'Dismantle' for the first time,
> I thought there is a mistake in the text (and it should say
> '... on an artifact *creature* you control'). Now I have the
> feeling, that the card text was formulated in that way especially
> for 'Darksteel Brute'.

I'd say it was written that way since Dismantle can also put charge
counters on stuff. If it said what you want, "put that many +1/+1 or charge
counters on target artifact creature you control", the charge counter part
would be basically useless. And it'd be a bit wordy to say "put that many
+1/+1 counters on target artifact creature or put that many charge counters
on target artifact". I really doubt Darksteel Brute entered their thinking
at all.

> I love Magic and I really like (most of) its rules. Could someone
> help me to figure out why the rules for +1/+1 counters are the way
> they are?

I suppose it's to keep counters consistent. Other types of counters
don't care if the permanent they're on changes types, so rather than make a
special case for +1/+1 counters (or +-?/+-? counters in general) they just
say that all counters stay on at all times. You're right, it's a bit silly,
but there ya go.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 14:24:32 +0200, Nuff Said <nuffsaid@phreaker.net> wrote:
>I really don't like the mechanic for +1/+1 counters in Magic.
>Normally, everything needs a 'legal target' etc. in magic.

Um, no; only things that say "target" in their Oracle text, plus spells being
cast that are local-enchantment spells, are targetted. Nothing else in Magic
targets.

>E.g. an 'enchant creature' card will drop off and go to the graveyard,
>when the enchanted permanent stops being a creature; the same holds
>for equipment.

This has nothing to do with targetting, since permanents sitting in play do
not themselves target anything. This has to do with the rules for local
enchantments (and equipment, which are modeled after them), noting what they
can enchant or equip - what they can be attached to while in play. Also note
that an Equipment that becomes unattached does NOT get put into the graveyard
- it just sits there in play unattached, as an artifact.

>Other spells simply have no effect and go to the
>graveyard if their target is no longer in play, becomes an illegal
>target etc. etc.

Only targetted spells can have this happen. Untargetted spells, which are the
vast majority in Magic, don't have this happen. Global enchantment, creature,
or artifact spells never make any such check on announcement or resolution;
neither do untargetted Instant or untargetted Sorcery spells.

>But: +1/+1 counters stay on the permanent, even if the permanent
>isn't a creature anymore. (E.g. 'Darksteel Brute'; put counters
>on it when it is a creature and they will stay on it even after
>the end of turn.)

Right. Nothing says anywhere in the rules to make them get put somewhere else,
or remove them. They have no particular -effect- on a noncreature, but they're
still there on top of it.

>Is this really a good mechanic? Is there some deeper reason, why
>counters behave so (IMO) totally different (compared to equipment,
>enchantments etc.)?

Probably a better question for you to ask would be "why would they act the
same? They are different things, with different mechanics". Local enchantments
don't act exactly the same as equipment; neither one acts the same as counters;
and none of these act the same as removing some permanent from the game acts,
for example, or countering a spell.

>E.g. when I read the card text of 'Dismantle' for the first time,
>I thought there is a mistake in the text (and it should say
>'... on an artifact *creature* you control'). Now I have the
>feeling, that the card text was formulated in that way especially
>for 'Darksteel Brute'.

It could have had a longer text that said "put that many +1/+1 counters on an
artifact creature you control or that many charge counters on an artifact you
control", yes, and would have worked differently if it did. It might have
been a modal spell instead, as Power Conduit's ability is modal. They decided
they didn't want it to work that way.

+1/+1 counters have worked this way pretty much since the beginning; +1/+1
counters versus Mishra's Factory was a FAQ since Antiquities...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 17:14:46 +0000, Chris Wiegert wrote:

>> E.g. when I read the card text of 'Dismantle' for the first time,
>> I thought there is a mistake in the text (and it should say
>> '... on an artifact *creature* you control'). Now I have the
>> feeling, that the card text was formulated in that way especially
>> for 'Darksteel Brute'.
>
> I'd say it was written that way since Dismantle can also put charge
> counters on stuff. If it said what you want, "put that many +1/+1 or charge
> counters on target artifact creature you control", the charge counter part
> would be basically useless. And it'd be a bit wordy to say "put that many
> +1/+1 counters on target artifact creature or put that many charge counters
> on target artifact". I really doubt Darksteel Brute entered their thinking
> at all.

You are right! I was so focused on +1/+1 counters that I actually did not
realize that Dismantle's text mentions other types of counters, too.


>> I love Magic and I really like (most of) its rules. Could someone
>> help me to figure out why the rules for +1/+1 counters are the way
>> they are?
>
> I suppose it's to keep counters consistent. Other types of counters
> don't care if the permanent they're on changes types, so rather than make a
> special case for +1/+1 counters (or +-?/+-? counters in general) they just
> say that all counters stay on at all times. You're right, it's a bit silly,
> but there ya go.

The "... to keep counters consistent" part makes sense to me, too.
But I also agree 100% with the "it's a bit silly" part

Thanks for your answer! Nuff.