Cycling with an Empty Library Question

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

At regionals today, this happened:
Player A, the active player, is at 4 life.
Player B has no cards left in his library and two Lightning Rifts in play.
Player B cycles a Renewed Faith and targets Player A with the Lightning
Rifts.........now what?
The judge ruled that Player A dies before Player B has to draw from an empty
library. Was this correct?
4 answers Last reply
More about cycling empty library question
  1. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

    Fshrly834 <fshrly834@cs.com> wrote:

    > At regionals today, this happened:
    > Player A, the active player, is at 4 life.
    > Player B has no cards left in his library and two Lightning Rifts in play.
    > Player B cycles a Renewed Faith and targets Player A with the Lightning
    > Rifts.........now what?
    > The judge ruled that Player A dies before Player B has to draw from an empty
    > library. Was this correct?

    Looks like it. Let's check it in detail.

    Renewed Faith
    {2}{W}
    Instant
    You gain 6 life.
    Cycling {1}{W} ({1}{W}, Discard this card from your hand: Draw a card.)
    When you cycle Renewed Faith, you may gain 2 life.

    Lightning Rift
    {1}{R}
    Enchantment
    Whenever a player cycles a card, you may pay {1}. If you do, Lightning
    Rift deals 2 damage to target creature or player.

    1. Player A gets priority and passes it.
    2. Player B gets priority and plays cycling ability of Renewed Faith,
    paying {1}{W} and discarding it. This triggers the second ability of
    Renewed Faith, along with the abilities of the two Lightning Rifts.
    3. Player B would get priority, but three triggered abilities go on the
    stack on top of the cycling ability. For the sake of definiteness, I'll
    assume that Player B puts the Renewed Faith triggered ability on the
    stack between the abilities from the Lightning Rifts, but it ultimately
    won't matter. The targets for both Lightning Rift triggered abilities
    are Player A.
    4. Player B gets priority and passes.
    5. Player A gets priority and passes.
    6. The top item on the stack (one of the Lightning Rift triggered
    abilities) resolves. Player B decides to pay {1}. Lightning Rift deals
    2 damage to Player A, reducing Player A to 2 life.
    7. Player A gets priority and passes.
    8. Player B gets priority and passes.
    9. The top item on the stack (the Renewed Faith cycle trigger) resolves.
    Player B decides to gain 2 life.
    10. Player A gets priority and passes.
    11. Player B gets priority and passes.
    12. The top item on the stack (the other Lightning Rift triggered
    ability) resolves. Player B decides to pay {1}. Lightning Rift deals 2
    damage to Player A, reducing Player A to 0 life.
    13. Player A would get priority, but a state-based effect resolves,
    ending the game with Player A as the loser.

    (If something like damage prevention interfered with A's loss, the
    cycling ability would eventually resolve, losing the game for Player B.)
    --
    Daniel W. Johnson
    panoptes@iquest.net
    http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
    039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
  2. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

    Fshrly834 <fshrly834@cs.com> wrote:
    > At regionals today, this happened:
    >Player A, the active player, is at 4 life.
    >Player B has no cards left in his library and two Lightning Rifts in play.
    >Player B cycles a Renewed Faith and targets Player A with the Lightning
    >Rifts.........now what?

    Now both Lightning Rifts trigger, because a player cycled a card, and the
    Renewed Faith also triggers, because B cycled it. All three of these triggered
    abilities go on the stack on top of the Cycling ability (up to here this
    doesn't depend on whose turn it is or who controls the triggered abilities).

    B controls all three triggered abilities, so B orders them on the stack, on
    top of the Cycling, as B chooses.

    >The judge ruled that Player A dies before Player B has to draw from an empty
    >library. Was this correct?

    This is correct; both of the Lightning Rift abilities _and_ the Faith triggered
    ability must resolve (or be countered) before the Cycling ability can try to
    resolve at all, because all three of them are sitting on top of it. It went
    on the stack as the first part of announcing it, and all three of them
    triggered in the last portion of announcing it, so there's no way any of them
    can be _under_ it on the stack. So A will take 4 damage and B will gain 2 life
    (assuming B chooses to pay 1 for each Rift ability, and targets A with both)
    before B would have to deal with drawing from an empty library... so the
    game will end with the Cycling still on the stack.

    Dave
    --
    \/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
    It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
    Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
    http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
  3. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

    Fshrly834 sez:

    <<
    >
    > At regionals today, this happened:
    >Player A, the active player, is at 4 life.
    >Player B has no cards left in his library and two Lightning Rifts in play.
    >Player B cycles a Renewed Faith and targets Player A with the Lightning
    >Rifts.........now what?
    >The judge ruled that Player A dies before Player B has to draw from an empty
    >library. Was this correct?
    >
    >
    >>

    Stack check:

    B Discards Renewed Faith for cycling. Ability goes on the stack.
    Lightning Rift 1 triggers during cycling. After cycling is put on stack, B pays
    1, ability goes on the stack.
    Lightning Rift 2 triggers during cycling. After cycling is put on stack, B pays
    1, ability goes on the stack.
    B Passes (Player who controlled the last spell or activated ability to hit the
    stack)
    A Passes.
    Lightning Rift 2 ability resolves, does 2 damage to A. A is at 2 life.
    A Passes (Active player)
    B Passes.
    Lightning Rift 1 ability resolves, does 2 damage to A. A is at 0 life.
    SBE check reveals that A has 0 or less life. A loses the game.

    So, the judge is right in this case.

    Had A had any prevention/lifegain whatsoever, B would've lost.


    ----
    "I remember back in the day we'd stay up all night...during the summer playing
    DnD. Just us, a 12 pack of mtn. dew, a pizza, and alot of sacrificing newborns
    on the altar to the lord Satan. good times, good times."
    --From Fark.com
  4. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

    Hello, Andy!

    A few nitpicks:

    You wrote on 02 May 2004 04:07:07 GMT:

    >> At regionals today, this happened:
    >>Player A, the active player, is at 4 life.
    >>Player B has no cards left in his library and two Lightning Rifts
    >>in play.
    >>Player B cycles a Renewed Faith and targets Player A with the
    >>Lightning
    >>Rifts.........now what?
    >>The judge ruled that Player A dies before Player B has to draw from
    >>an empty
    >>library. Was this correct?

    AJ> Stack check:

    AJ> B Discards Renewed Faith for cycling. Ability goes on the
    AJ> stack.
    You mean ability which reads "Draw a card", don't you?

    AJ> Lightning Rift 1 triggers during cycling. After cycling is put
    AJ> on stack, B pays
    AJ> 1, ability goes on the stack.

    Careful: B does *not* immediately pay {1} - it happens (if he/she
    decides to do so) on *resolution* of the LR's ability. B does, however,
    choose the target for the ability before it goes onto the stack -
    presumably player A.


    AJ> Lightning Rift 2 triggers during cycling. After cycling is put
    AJ> on stack, B pays
    AJ> 1, ability goes on the stack.
    AJ> B Passes (Player who controlled the last spell or activated
    AJ> ability to hit the
    AJ> stack)

    Actually, B cannot pass just yet - there is another triggered ability to
    be put on the stack - the *triggered* ability of Renewed Faith ("you may
    gain 2 life"). Since it also triggers during the cycling (playing the
    *cycling* ability) of Renewed Faith, and is also controlled by player B,
    B may choose the order of those 3 abilities (2 LR's and RF's "you may
    gain 2 life") as he/she pleases. Then B may pass.

    AJ> A Passes.
    AJ> Lightning Rift 2 ability resolves, does 2 damage to A. A is at
    AJ> 2 life.
    AJ> A Passes (Active player)
    AJ> B Passes.
    AJ> Lightning Rift 1 ability resolves, does 2 damage to A. A is at
    AJ> 0 life.
    AJ> SBE check reveals that A has 0 or less life. A loses the game.

    AJ> So, the judge is right in this case.

    Regards,
    Arkady.
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