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Cycling with an Empty Library Question

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Last response: in PC Gaming
Anonymous
May 2, 2004 7:14:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

At regionals today, this happened:
Player A, the active player, is at 4 life.
Player B has no cards left in his library and two Lightning Rifts in play.
Player B cycles a Renewed Faith and targets Player A with the Lightning
Rifts.........now what?
The judge ruled that Player A dies before Player B has to draw from an empty
library. Was this correct?

More about : cycling empty library question

Anonymous
May 2, 2004 7:14:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Fshrly834 <fshrly834@cs.com> wrote:

> At regionals today, this happened:
> Player A, the active player, is at 4 life.
> Player B has no cards left in his library and two Lightning Rifts in play.
> Player B cycles a Renewed Faith and targets Player A with the Lightning
> Rifts.........now what?
> The judge ruled that Player A dies before Player B has to draw from an empty
> library. Was this correct?

Looks like it. Let's check it in detail.

Renewed Faith
{2}{W}
Instant
You gain 6 life.
Cycling {1}{W} ({1}{W}, Discard this card from your hand: Draw a card.)
When you cycle Renewed Faith, you may gain 2 life.

Lightning Rift
{1}{R}
Enchantment
Whenever a player cycles a card, you may pay {1}. If you do, Lightning
Rift deals 2 damage to target creature or player.

1. Player A gets priority and passes it.
2. Player B gets priority and plays cycling ability of Renewed Faith,
paying {1}{W} and discarding it. This triggers the second ability of
Renewed Faith, along with the abilities of the two Lightning Rifts.
3. Player B would get priority, but three triggered abilities go on the
stack on top of the cycling ability. For the sake of definiteness, I'll
assume that Player B puts the Renewed Faith triggered ability on the
stack between the abilities from the Lightning Rifts, but it ultimately
won't matter. The targets for both Lightning Rift triggered abilities
are Player A.
4. Player B gets priority and passes.
5. Player A gets priority and passes.
6. The top item on the stack (one of the Lightning Rift triggered
abilities) resolves. Player B decides to pay {1}. Lightning Rift deals
2 damage to Player A, reducing Player A to 2 life.
7. Player A gets priority and passes.
8. Player B gets priority and passes.
9. The top item on the stack (the Renewed Faith cycle trigger) resolves.
Player B decides to gain 2 life.
10. Player A gets priority and passes.
11. Player B gets priority and passes.
12. The top item on the stack (the other Lightning Rift triggered
ability) resolves. Player B decides to pay {1}. Lightning Rift deals 2
damage to Player A, reducing Player A to 0 life.
13. Player A would get priority, but a state-based effect resolves,
ending the game with Player A as the loser.

(If something like damage prevention interfered with A's loss, the
cycling ability would eventually resolve, losing the game for Player B.)
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
Anonymous
May 2, 2004 7:18:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Fshrly834 <fshrly834@cs.com> wrote:
> At regionals today, this happened:
>Player A, the active player, is at 4 life.
>Player B has no cards left in his library and two Lightning Rifts in play.
>Player B cycles a Renewed Faith and targets Player A with the Lightning
>Rifts.........now what?

Now both Lightning Rifts trigger, because a player cycled a card, and the
Renewed Faith also triggers, because B cycled it. All three of these triggered
abilities go on the stack on top of the Cycling ability (up to here this
doesn't depend on whose turn it is or who controls the triggered abilities).

B controls all three triggered abilities, so B orders them on the stack, on
top of the Cycling, as B chooses.

>The judge ruled that Player A dies before Player B has to draw from an empty
>library. Was this correct?

This is correct; both of the Lightning Rift abilities _and_ the Faith triggered
ability must resolve (or be countered) before the Cycling ability can try to
resolve at all, because all three of them are sitting on top of it. It went
on the stack as the first part of announcing it, and all three of them
triggered in the last portion of announcing it, so there's no way any of them
can be _under_ it on the stack. So A will take 4 damage and B will gain 2 life
(assuming B chooses to pay 1 for each Rift ability, and targets A with both)
before B would have to deal with drawing from an empty library... so the
game will end with the Cycling still on the stack.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
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Anonymous
May 2, 2004 8:07:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Fshrly834 sez:

<<
>
> At regionals today, this happened:
>Player A, the active player, is at 4 life.
>Player B has no cards left in his library and two Lightning Rifts in play.
>Player B cycles a Renewed Faith and targets Player A with the Lightning
>Rifts.........now what?
>The judge ruled that Player A dies before Player B has to draw from an empty
>library. Was this correct?
>
>
>>

Stack check:

B Discards Renewed Faith for cycling. Ability goes on the stack.
Lightning Rift 1 triggers during cycling. After cycling is put on stack, B pays
1, ability goes on the stack.
Lightning Rift 2 triggers during cycling. After cycling is put on stack, B pays
1, ability goes on the stack.
B Passes (Player who controlled the last spell or activated ability to hit the
stack)
A Passes.
Lightning Rift 2 ability resolves, does 2 damage to A. A is at 2 life.
A Passes (Active player)
B Passes.
Lightning Rift 1 ability resolves, does 2 damage to A. A is at 0 life.
SBE check reveals that A has 0 or less life. A loses the game.

So, the judge is right in this case.

Had A had any prevention/lifegain whatsoever, B would've lost.


----
"I remember back in the day we'd stay up all night...during the summer playing
DnD. Just us, a 12 pack of mtn. dew, a pizza, and alot of sacrificing newborns
on the altar to the lord Satan. good times, good times."
--From Fark.com
Anonymous
May 3, 2004 1:19:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hello, Andy!

A few nitpicks:

You wrote on 02 May 2004 04:07:07 GMT:

>> At regionals today, this happened:
>>Player A, the active player, is at 4 life.
>>Player B has no cards left in his library and two Lightning Rifts
>>in play.
>>Player B cycles a Renewed Faith and targets Player A with the
>>Lightning
>>Rifts.........now what?
>>The judge ruled that Player A dies before Player B has to draw from
>>an empty
>>library. Was this correct?

AJ> Stack check:

AJ> B Discards Renewed Faith for cycling. Ability goes on the
AJ> stack.
You mean ability which reads "Draw a card", don't you?

AJ> Lightning Rift 1 triggers during cycling. After cycling is put
AJ> on stack, B pays
AJ> 1, ability goes on the stack.

Careful: B does *not* immediately pay {1} - it happens (if he/she
decides to do so) on *resolution* of the LR's ability. B does, however,
choose the target for the ability before it goes onto the stack -
presumably player A.


AJ> Lightning Rift 2 triggers during cycling. After cycling is put
AJ> on stack, B pays
AJ> 1, ability goes on the stack.
AJ> B Passes (Player who controlled the last spell or activated
AJ> ability to hit the
AJ> stack)

Actually, B cannot pass just yet - there is another triggered ability to
be put on the stack - the *triggered* ability of Renewed Faith ("you may
gain 2 life"). Since it also triggers during the cycling (playing the
*cycling* ability) of Renewed Faith, and is also controlled by player B,
B may choose the order of those 3 abilities (2 LR's and RF's "you may
gain 2 life") as he/she pleases. Then B may pass.

AJ> A Passes.
AJ> Lightning Rift 2 ability resolves, does 2 damage to A. A is at
AJ> 2 life.
AJ> A Passes (Active player)
AJ> B Passes.
AJ> Lightning Rift 1 ability resolves, does 2 damage to A. A is at
AJ> 0 life.
AJ> SBE check reveals that A has 0 or less life. A loses the game.

AJ> So, the judge is right in this case.

Regards,
Arkady.