Gemini Engine / Fodder Cannon

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

The Cards:

Fodder Cannon - Artifact
{4}, {T}, Sacrifice a creature: Fodder Cannon
deals 4 damage to target creature.

Gemini Engine - Artifact Creature
Whenever Gemini Engine attacks, put an attacking Twin
artifact creature token into play. Its power is equal
to Gemini Engine's power and its toughness is equal to
Gemini Engine's toughness. Sacrifice the token at end
of combat.


The Question:

In one of our recent games, the following question came up:

Can I use the token produced by the Gemini Engine in
the Fodder Cannon at end of combat?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Wed, 5 May 2004, Nuff Said wrote:

> The Cards:
>
> Fodder Cannon - Artifact
> {4}, {T}, Sacrifice a creature: Fodder Cannon
> deals 4 damage to target creature.
>
> Gemini Engine - Artifact Creature
> Whenever Gemini Engine attacks, put an attacking Twin
> artifact creature token into play. Its power is equal
> to Gemini Engine's power and its toughness is equal to
> Gemini Engine's toughness. Sacrifice the token at end
> of combat.
>
>
> The Question:
>
> In one of our recent games, the following question came up:
>
> Can I use the token produced by the Gemini Engine in
> the Fodder Cannon at end of combat?

Yeah, why not?
Trigger goes on the stack, the you sacrifice the token, ability does
nothing when it resolves. Or sacrifice it any time you want (probably
after damage went on the stack).

David

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Wed, 05 May 2004 11:44:14 +0200, David de Kloet wrote:

>> In one of our recent games, the following question came up:
>>
>> Can I use the token produced by the Gemini Engine in
>> the Fodder Cannon at end of combat?
>
> Yeah, why not?

'Why not?' was exactly what I thought; but someone in our group
meant, that the 'sacrifice'-part in the Gemini Engines text is
'something like' part of the costs for bringing the token out and
following the lines that one action cannot pay for two costs, he
disagreed with putting the token into the Fodder Cannon. I said,
that the Gemini Engine's text has nothing to do with costs (but
is a triggered ability) and so: 'Why not?' (Finally, we followed
my interpretation, but I wanted to ask this here because similar
situations arise quite often in our group; i.p. when players are
not so familiar with the CompRules but try to *interpret* card
texts only.)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

> 'Why not?' was exactly what I thought; but someone in our group
> meant, that the 'sacrifice'-part in the Gemini Engines text is
> 'something like' part of the costs for bringing the token out and
> following the lines that one action cannot pay for two costs, he
> disagreed with putting the token into the Fodder Cannon. I said,
> that the Gemini Engine's text has nothing to do with costs (but
> is a triggered ability) and so: 'Why not?' (Finally, we followed
> my interpretation, but I wanted to ask this here because similar
> situations arise quite often in our group; i.p. when players are
> not so familiar with the CompRules but try to *interpret* card
> texts only.)

So, by your friend's logic, if that Twin token was blocked by a 10/10
creature, the Twin wouldn't be killed since it has to stay alive to be able
to be sacrificed later? So it's basically indestructible other than it's sac
effect thing, in his mind? Uh, no.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Nuff Said <nuffsaid@phreaker.net> wrote:
>The Cards:
>
>Fodder Cannon - Artifact
> 4,Tap,Sacrifice a creature: ~ deals 4 damage to target creature.
>Gemini Engine - Artifact Creature
> Whenever ~ attacks, put an attacking Twin artifact creature token into play.
> Its power is equal to ~'s power and its toughness is equal to ~'s toughness.
> Sacrifice the token at end of combat.

You may sacrifice the Twin token to the Fodder cannon, during end-of-combat
step, before the delayed triggered ability resolves, assuming the Twin token
didn't get killed already by combat damage or something else.

>The Question:
> In one of our recent games, the following question came up:
> Can I use the token produced by the Gemini Engine in
> the Fodder Cannon at end of combat?

Yep. Provided you do so before that delayed triggered ability resolves and
tells you to sacrifice it.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Wed, 05 May 2004 18:08:12 +0200, Nuff Said <nuffsaid@phreaker.net> wrote:
>'Why not?' was exactly what I thought; but someone in our group
>meant, that the 'sacrifice'-part in the Gemini Engines text is
>'something like' part of the costs for bringing the token out

There's no "cost for bringing the token out" - it appears as part of a
triggered ability's effect, and they never HAVE activation costs to pay on
announcement, because they're not activated. And a delayed triggered ability
that gets made as part of an effect isn't any different from any other
delayed triggered ability; there's nothing special about it that would make it
not use the stack, or take precedence over any other thing while it was on the
stack, or anything like that.

>and following the lines that one action cannot pay for two costs, he
>disagreed with putting the token into the Fodder Cannon. I said,
>that the Gemini Engine's text has nothing to do with costs (but
>is a triggered ability) and so: 'Why not?'

You're correct. Yes, it's being sacrificed; no, that sacrifice isn't part of
an activation cost (like the one on Fodder Cannon _is_) or an additional cost
to play a spell, it's just an instruction.

If it had said "sacrifice a creature" rather than 'sacrifice the token', you
would still have to sacrifice SOMETHING on resolution. But since it specifies
the token, if the token's not there on resolution you just don't do anything.

>(Finally, we followed
>my interpretation, but I wanted to ask this here because similar
>situations arise quite often in our group; i.p. when players are
>not so familiar with the CompRules but try to *interpret* card texts only.)

Well, part of what they've been making a good deal of effort since 1999 to do
is get the card texts to where they don't -need- all that much interpreting,
at least in conjunction with the rulebook. Having a copy of the CompRules,
currently at ... oh, gah, they've previewed one of the cards in Darksteel that
we insisted shouldn't be released as printed... anyway, currently at

http://www.wizards.com/magic/comprules/MagicCompRules020104.txt ,

only a little over 300K in size, suitable for grabbing and printing out...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.