Soul Sculptor and Forgotten Ancient

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Let's say that the Soul Sculptor...

Soul Sculptor
{2}{W}
Creature -- Townsfolk
1/1
{1}{W}, {T}: Target creature becomes an enchantment and loses all
abilities until a player plays a creature spell.

....has previously changed the Forgotten Ancient...

Forgotten Ancient
{3}{G}
Creature -- Elemental
0/3
Whenever a player plays a spell, you may put a +1/+1 counter on
Forgotten Ancient.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may move any number of +1/+1
counters from Forgotten Ancient onto other creatures.

....into an enchantment. Then someone plays a creature spell. Does
the player get to use Forgotten Ancient's ability?

Normally, I would say no way, since these things both get triggered
simultaneously, and in order for the Ancient to get a counter, it
would have had to have it's ability when that trigger happened.

In this case, I'm slightly confused by Soul Sculptor's wording, by
which I mean the "until a player plays a creature spell" part. Is
this a trigger thing? For instance, if someone plays a creature
spell, does the enchantisized creature IMMEDIATELY become a creature
again, or does it trigger off the playing of the card, and go onto the
stack above the creature spell, along with any other similar triggers?

Thanks,

Rick Kunkel

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Rick Kunkel <NOSPAM-kunkel@w-link.net> wrote:
>Let's say that the Soul Sculptor...
>
>Soul Sculptor 2W Creature -- Townsfolk
>1/1 1W,Tap: Target creature becomes an enchantment and loses all abilities
> until a player plays a creature spell.
>
>...has previously changed the Forgotten Ancient...
>
>Forgotten Ancient 3G Creature -- Elemental
>0/3 Whenever a player plays a spell, you may put a +1/+1 counter on ~. / At
> the beginning of your upkeep, you may move any number of +1/+1 counters from
> ~ onto other creatures.

The +1/+1 counters will still be on the "Forgotten Ancient" enchantment, but
won't have any particular effect until it becomes a creature again. Neither
ability can trigger while the FA is an enchantment, since the FA has lost
all abilities.

If Soul Scupltor enchantifies the FA in -response- to one of the triggered
abilities? That ability will still resolve; the first will still put a
(currently useless) +1/+1 counter on the enchantment, while the second would
still let you move +1/+1 counters off the enchantment onto other creatures.

>...into an enchantment. Then someone plays a creature spell. Does
>the player get to use Forgotten Ancient's ability?

The effect of the Soul Sculptor wears off as the creature spell gets played;
this means the FA should be a creature again in time for its ability to trigger
a moment later when we get to 409.1i . (If for some reason the creature spell
gets played _illegally_, or its player finds they can't finish playing it
correctly, the game rewinds to just before the spell was played and in the
process rewinds to the Soul Sculptor ability still being "on".)

>Normally, I would say no way, since these things both get triggered
>simultaneously, and in order for the Ancient to get a counter, it
>would have had to have it's ability when that trigger happened.

Note that Soul Sculptor's effect does _not_ have any sort of delayed triggered
ability that triggers to end the effect. Rather, it has a _duration_: "until
a player plays a creature spell". The rulebook doesn't -specifically- go into
this, but 300.4's second bit applies here - this is an effect scheduled to last
"until" Foo happens, not until something ends... so the duration wears off
as the player starts playing the creature spell.

>In this case, I'm slightly confused by Soul Sculptor's wording, by
>which I mean the "until a player plays a creature spell" part. Is
>this a trigger thing?

No, it's a duration, like "until end of turn" or "until a player has 20 or more
life".

> For instance, if someone plays a creature
>spell, does the enchantisized creature IMMEDIATELY become a creature
>again, or does it trigger off the playing of the card, and go onto the
>stack above the creature spell, along with any other similar triggers?

Nothing triggers and goes on to the stack here - the duration of the effect
simply ends, and the effects of the effect, so to speak, wear off at that
point, leaving the FA once again a creature.

Dave
--
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