Finally! An article about the cheating scandal!

daddywags214

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<A HREF="http://www.tomshardware.com/column/20030624/index.html" target="_new"> Here it is... </A>

What do you think? I agree with Tim Sweeney.

Tit for tat, butter for fat, ATi's dog kicks nVidia's cat

(Maximum PC)
 

simwiz2

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It seems from the part about the Futuremark beta program - "influence the development of the benchmarking software to suit their hardware" - that 3DMark scores can be bought.
 

daddywags214

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Why do you think ATi should've been 'ripped up?' Their optimizations were legitimate (in my eyes)! The article explained that! Even so, ATi said that since they weren't part of the original benchmark, they would be (and have been) removed, just for honesty's sake. That ISN'T cheating. They did not deceive anybody to gain an edge on the competition. And they owned up to what changes they had made, and removed them... Wherein did they deserve to be 'ripped up?'

Tit for tat, butter for fat, ATi's dog kicks nVidia's cat

(Maximum PC)
 

phial

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there teh Quack ting

that DEFINATELY should have been mentioned



otherwise its no suprise. theres not a single person that doesnt know that what Nvidia did was wrong. even teh Nvidiots cant deny it in their heads (even tho some wont admit it ... tools)

not like itll make a difference. people will still buy more nvidia cards, because people are stupid, people are shallow and follow brands and names like religious idols

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<A HREF="http://www.quake3world.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001355.html" target="_new">*I hate thug gangstas*</A>
 

coolsquirtle

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well right now it CLEARLY shows that both nVidia and ATi deserves a smacking from their mothers...... LONG LIVE MATROX!!! hahhahahahaha

Proud Owner the Block Heater
120% MATROX/INTEL EXTREME GRAPHICS Fanboy
 

lhgpoobaa

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It certainly justify's my long held opinion that 3dmarks are a pretty meaningless commodity with a variable result.

Unfortunately noobs need numbers to justify a purchace.

<b>Melb_angel: PooBaa's <A HREF="http://www.secretarythemovie.com" target="_new">Secretary!</A></b>
 

reever2

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Nice bandwagon skills, i bet if Nvidia was winning in 3dmark03, or if they didnt start their anti-3dmark smear cmapaign, or even if there was no article published on this site about the 3dmark smear campaign, which was FILLED with Nvidia's usual BS, whining PR statement, you wouldnt be saying "3dmark is useless"

i like how Tom manages to get their 3dmark is useless point across in the conclusion, as if the entire article devoted to the issue, and money from Nvidia to create and post the article wasn't enough. Oh, and the way he says and doesnt say "nvidia cheated" really gets his point across "I love Nvidia". These aren't accusations anymore, they are facts, Nvidia cheated, its alright for you to just go out and say it now
oh wait i just realized something.....
 

GeneticWeapon

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Reever2 wrote
Oh, and the way he says and doesnt say "nvidia cheated" really gets his point across "I love Nvidia".
You dont know how to read, do you moron?


From the article...
One thing is clear though, in our opinion - the use of clipping frames is a cheat, pure and simple, employed only to improve benchmark scores. And this practice deserves to be condemned.
I think that statement say's alot. Reever, why dont you go make comments to Kyle in his forums... Lars already deserves a ton of respect in my eyes, compared to the commentaries published by [H].

"We need fangirls" - dhlucke
 

lhgpoobaa

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Sorry to dissapoint you and holt your froth laden diatribe, but ive allways thought that 3dmark was pretty useless, along with the "mark monkey's" who spend countless hours tweaking their rig for 100 more points.
I think ive had this view all the way back to the days of the TNT2.

And before you label me a ATI lackey or something (i know u want to), ive owned:
A. 4mb Diamond stealth 2d PCI graphics card.
B. 4mb ATI RagePro PCI 3d card.
C. 32mb Diamond Viper V770 TNT2 AGP.
D. 32Mb Gigabyte TNT2Pro.
E. 32Mb Leadtek Geforce2Pro.
F. And just recently aquired a R9700pro, and donated the Geforce2pro to the GirlFriend.




<b>Melb_angel: PooBaa's <A HREF="http://www.secretarythemovie.com" target="_new">Secretary!</A></b>
 

phial

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teh 5900 is not a bad card


but its overpriced. im not going to over the facts again

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<A HREF="http://www.quake3world.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001355.html" target="_new">*I hate thug gangstas*</A>
 

daddywags214

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I will, Phial. First look at the prices:

GeForceFX 5900 = $500 (Referred to hereafter as 5900)
ATi Radeon 9800 Pro 256mb = $500 (Radeon 256)
ATi Radeon 9800 Pro 128mb = $350 (Radeon 128)

Notice that the 5900 and Radeon256 are the same price. Their performance is very close, with the cards trading benchmark victories. Image Quality is superior on ATi, but we will ignore that for the time being. Now, to compare the two Radeons. The Radeon256 only beats the 128 at high resolutions with AA. And even so, the difference is minimal, barely noticeable to the human eye. Therefore, if A=B and B=C, then A=C. In other words, the 5900 only outperforms the 9800 128 some of the time, and only by a small margin when it does. Therefore, the Radeon 128 is obviously the best choice in high end video cards. The 5900 isn't bad necessarily, but there's really no advantage to buying one when you could save $150 and buy one just as fast (AH!) with better image quality.

Tit for tat, butter for fat, ATi's dog kicks nVidia's cat

(Maximum PC)
 

daddywags214

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YEEAAAAAAAHHHH BAYYYYBEEEEEEE I'm an ENTHUSIAST NOW!!! HAHHAHHA.... Wow, I'm a loser, too...

Tit for tat, butter for fat, ATi's dog kicks nVidia's cat

(Maximum PC)
 

eden

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I can personally attest as a forum veteran that Poobaa has always had a stance against 3dMark. Don't put words into Poobaa's mouth people.

--
If I could see the Matrix, I'd tell you I am only seeing 0s inside your head! :tongue:
 

eden

Champion
An excellent article that proves they got our opinion across.
Not only did they mention what we mentioned about benchmarking becoming something that will change from now on (namely GrapeApe), but they mentioned the argument of Quack against ATi.
Kudos to Lars, they really read our posts.

I am hoping we as readers can help THG get their point accross those 2 companies.
Let us join with other websites and start a rally.

Seriously, has anyone read the PR crap from ATi's attack on nVidia with their Enthusiast-Mainstream-Value comparisons?
Someone read the Value part mentioning the hypocrisy with the 9200 being touted as so good when it has no DX9 while FX5200 has it. It was even one of the pics on the article, it can be seen near the end.
It is so childish to see how they attack each other. It is demoralizing. What a capitalistic world. An ideal but become a web of lies world.

--
If I could see the Matrix, I'd tell you I am only seeing 0s inside your head! :tongue:
 

lhgpoobaa

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Thankyou.... errr.... i think LOL :lol:

Having one single number to show a graphics card capability is allways tempting for the OEM to convince the noob...

But:

A. The number is also greatly influenced by the CPU & memory subsystem
B. Its open to all sorts of devious tactics, financial and technical.
C. Markmonkeys :smile:


<b>Melb_angel: PooBaa's <A HREF="http://www.secretarythemovie.com" target="_new">Secretary!</A></b>
 

eden

Champion
Hahah!
Well, maybe number 1 can be removed, as clearly seen by the CPU tests for 3dMark 03. Barely 100 points are gained per 500MHZ increase!

--
If I could see the Matrix, I'd tell you I am only seeing 0s inside your head! :tongue:
 

davepermen

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i like the article. i just don't like how they still bash on futuremark. futuremark gave out a "contest", wich card performs best in a certain task. no mather if its game releated or not, it IS graphic releated, and it IS great to measure the performance of your gpu, IFF the driver developers are fair and take the contest as what it is, a contest.

too bad capitalistic marketing walked into the driver developer room and told them "look, we have to win this contest, NO MATHER WHAT!! we don't care about fair and sportive, just WIN THE BENCHMARKS!".
THAT is where the failure is. not 3dmark, not futuremark. nvidia and ati marketing parts. its like taking a car in a bycicle-race just to win no mather what.

futuremark presents a sportive event, a contest. and thats ALL they do. and there is NOTHING wrong with that. intel could come to the realstorm benchmark (www.realstorm.com) as well, and claim they have only compiled a basic version, making p4 looking worse than they are. or they could release a new "chipsetdriver" wich .. optimises for realstorm.. means determining "RealStorm_Benchmark.exe" and replace it by an own, SSE and SSE2 and MMX and all the fuzz optimized version. realstorm _would_ perform then much bether.

if a gpu does not work good in futuremark, it shows to not fit well into the given contest. like taking a race-bike to go downhill-biking (ouch!:D). too bad futuremark is _THAT_ gaming-near, that a bad result in futuremark leads to bad results in games as well .. if not "optimized" for nvidia as well.

btw, nvidia does not really help developers by recoding their stuff to optimize for their gpu. they just make them dependently on them.

and there is no "shift" in the graphics world that games should get optimized for different gpu's manually. at least, there should not be. we're still x86 compatible on cpu's, there is no "shift" away from amd and intel to make them incompatible.
nvidia made a shift away from being fast in opengl or directx to some... shitworld where they are only fast in their own small world coding own stuff. again, this is to make developers dependently on them.

a good gpu performs well in ANY opengl benchmark and in ANY dx benchmark with NO optimisation specific to that benchmark.
be the benchmark the futuremark 3dmark, be it a game, be it realstorm (while it doesn't actually use the gpu..:D at least, not yet..).

"take a look around" - limp bizkit

www.google.com
 
I wanted to comment on this, but the article was posted just before I went to party with some Quebecers in Calgary (Mmm Tortiere and Boreal Rousse!) now I'm awake at work and it's almost all been said! Dang Drinking in the Daytime! :eek:

So this mean I can't pimp out my 3dmark03 scores like it's a badge of 'coolness'? Dang I need something Else! Quick, Here's my Lego Land marks!

I enjoyed the article it seemes as even handed as the current cheats issue could get, so be it. I just wonder what he fall out will be; it took a while to get people (reviewers) on board with this being a bad thing for them too, but the question is what does the fall-out create/change. Nothing new? A new standards body. Pledges of 'fair play'? I hink it's likely the former since the later woudl be expecting alot from the industry.

At least it been said and fairly clearly, and both ATI and Nvidia now realize that the issue is out there.

As a Testament to this issue I will try and find a <A HREF="http://carcino.gen.nz/images/index.php/35a796d8/5e08eed6" target="_new"><b>Bitchin Fast 3D 2000</b></A> because I KNOW you can't cheat Bungholiomarks!

<font color=red>ATI</font color=red> Sux, <font color=green>Nvidia</font color=green> Blows, and <font color=blue>Matrox</font color=blue> gives good Multi-Head!


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new"><font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil:
 
And see what you guys think about this <A HREF="http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030624/sftu011_1.html" target="_new">Nvidia press release</A> (released as if it were an article in Yahoo Biz).

Expect alot more of this 'manufactured' news in the future.

I can see it now "SIS extends performanc lead to the chears of gamers everywhere" Of course now it's a performance lead over itself an the cheers are from the 12 Fanboys in each continent, but the story is 'legally' correct.

The end of any serious benchmarking standerd means this is what we are left with from the review sites (not that Yahoo is a review site), just expect this kinda thing to be more wide spread. Great!


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new"><font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil:
 

shadus

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Do you mean you missed the part where the guy who caught nvidia also found 6-8 places where ati was doing the same type of opts? On the original fiasco, nvidia got caught with alot more cheats of a worse variety, but its all evening up now.

Shadus
 

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