Relentless Rats Question

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

So, what kind of effect is this exactly?

I've been looking at effects on cards lately, and even with far-out stuff
like Serum Powder, you could say that it's a replacement effect, replacing a
mulligan with its actions.

But the weird thing about this card is, it affects the game from the
library. Before it's in your hand, in play, in the graveyard or anywhere
else, the "effect" generated by the card is in effect and allows you to
break the 4 card in library rule.

I guess on further review it's not that different than cards that change
your maximum hand size.

Still, it's weird.
Peter

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Risser Family <news@nospam.com> wrote:

> So, what kind of effect is this exactly?

Answering questions about cards requires the text of the cards. For
cards that have already been released, we can look them up in Oracle.

Poking around the Wizards of the Coast site turned up
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/as14 :

Relentless Rats
{1}{B}{B}
Creature -- Rat
2/2
Relentless Rats gets +1/+1 for each other creature in play named
Relentless Rats.
A deck can have any number of cards named Relentless Rats.

I'd call that a static ability.

405. Static Abilities

405.1. A static ability does something all the time rather than being
activated or triggered. The ability isn't played--it just "exists." Such
abilities apply only while the ability is on a permanent in play, unless
the ability is covered by rule 402.8 or 402.9.

402.8. Abilities function only while the permanent with the ability is
in play unless the ability is a characteristic-setting ability that sets
type or color, an ability of an instant or sorcery, an additional cost,
an alternative cost, or a play restriction. Abilities can also function
in other zones if they state otherwise or if the ability can only
trigger or be played in a zone other than the in-play zone. An ability
whose cost or effect specifies that it moves the object it's on out of a
particular zone functions only in that zone.
Example: An ability with a cost that includes "Discard this card from
your hand" can be played only if the card is in your hand.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

(for those confused, the preview card Relentless Rats is at
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/as14)

"Risser Family" <news@nospam.com> writes:
> So, what kind of effect is this exactly?

A static ability, I suppose. One that modifies the fundamental rules
of the game, as opposed to doing something while in play.

> I've been looking at effects on cards lately, and even with far-out stuff
> like Serum Powder, you could say that it's a replacement effect, replacing a
> mulligan with its actions.
>
> But the weird thing about this card is, it affects the game from the
> library. Before it's in your hand, in play, in the graveyard or anywhere
> else, the "effect" generated by the card is in effect and allows you to
> break the 4 card in library rule.

Before that, even. It affects the rules for deck construction, which
happens before the deck becomes the library.

,----[ Comp. Rules ]
| 101.1. At the start of a game, each player shuffles his or her own
| deck so that the cards are in a random order. Each player may then
| shuffle his or her opponent's deck. The players' decks become their
| libraries.
`----

> I guess on further review it's not that different than cards that change
> your maximum hand size.
>
> Still, it's weird.

Weird, but if Wizards says that a card Works This Way, that's what
happens.

They're going to have to update the rulebook in some way to handle it
regardless. The Golden Rule as written today can't change the
4-of-a-card rule. Although, mulliganing is in 101.4, but Serum Powder
doesn't contradict the mulligan rule; it just gives more options for
it. The Rats seems to outright contradict the 4-of-a-card rule.

Just wait a couple weeks and the FAQ should tell all.

,----[ Comp. Rules ]
| 100.2. In constructed play, each player needs his or her own deck of
| at least sixty cards, small items to represent any tokens and
| counters, and some way to clearly track life totals. A constructed
| deck can have any number of basic land cards and no more than four
| of any card with a particular English name other than basic land
| cards.
|
| 103.1. Whenever a card's text directly contradicts these rules, the
| card takes precedence. The card overrides only the rule that applies
| to that specific situation. The only exception is that the rules in
| section 100, "General," and section 101, "Starting the Game," can't
| be overridden by the cards. Those rules apply at all times,
| regardless of what the cards say.
`----

--
Peter C.
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World
War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
-- Albert Einstein

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Risser Family <news@nospam.com> wrote:
>So, what kind of effect is this exactly?

It's a "it works because they want it to" effect.

>I've been looking at effects on cards lately, and even with far-out stuff
>like Serum Powder, you could say that it's a replacement effect, replacing a
>mulligan with its actions.

No - Serum Powder's a normal Special Action effect, that doesn't use the stack,
that defines -when- you can use it, exactly, at its start. It doesn't replace
a mulligan - if it did it would say "Instead of taking a mulligan, if ~ is in
your hand, you may..."

Serum Powder adds an option to 101.4, effectively, without overriding anything
that's actually there.

>But the weird thing about this card is, it affects the game from the
>library. Before it's in your hand, in play, in the graveyard or anywhere
>else, the "effect" generated by the card is in effect and allows you to
>break the 4 card in library rule.

Right. This is a static ability, but it has to be active in any zone at all,
and in particular has to be active before the game even begins. Weird, right?

Even weirder: this -overrides the Golden Rule as stated-. Because the Golden
Rule as stated says you can't override the rules in 100.*-101.*, yet this
card skitters straight past 100.2 in declaring that it isn't subject to "no
more than four of any card with a particular English name other than basic
land cards."...

>I guess on further review it's not that different than cards that change
>your maximum hand size.

Well, the only ones of those that actually work before the game starts, at
present, are the Vanguard cards, which aren't technically Magic cards at all.
It is actually fairly different from nearly anything else we've got. (There's
at least one other card whose effect works from the library... and the ante
cards, technically, have part of their effect work before the game starts at
all... but those don't override something the Golden Rule says can't be
overridden.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Wed, 12 May 2004 21:17:36 -0500, panoptes@iquest.net (Daniel W.
Johnson) wrote:

>Relentless Rats
>{1}{B}{B}
>Creature -- Rat
>2/2
>Relentless Rats gets +1/+1 for each other creature in play named
>Relentless Rats.
>A deck can have any number of cards named Relentless Rats.
>
>I'd call that a static ability.

Silly question, but:

You have five rats in your deck and they are all in play. Now, if your
opponent plays Humility - will your deck become illegal?


Humility
{2}{W}{W}
Enchantment
All creatures lose all abilities. ~this~ gains "All creatures are
1/1."

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Simon Nejmann <snejmann@worldonline.REMOVETHIS.dk> wrote:

> Silly question, but:
>
> You have five rats in your deck and they are all in play. Now, if your
> opponent plays Humility - will your deck become illegal?

Technically, yes. But, like the interaction between mask counters and
Power Conduit[1], I would be inclined to ignore it. Or, they might take
the position that deck legality can not change during a game, no matter
what happens to the cards and/or their abilities. (They probably have a
similar position for the possibility of using an ante-only card to take
a fifth card with a given name from the opponent's deck.)

[1] It's nice not to have to invoke an Unglued card for this issue.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

> >I've been looking at effects on cards lately, and even with far-out stuff
> >like Serum Powder, you could say that it's a replacement effect,
replacing a
> >mulligan with its actions.
>
> No - Serum Powder's a normal Special Action effect, that doesn't use the
stack,
> that defines -when- you can use it, exactly, at its start. It doesn't
replace
> a mulligan - if it did it would say "Instead of taking a mulligan, if ~ is
in
> your hand, you may..."

I guess I've always seen it as "Instead of taking a mulligan, you may do
this or take a mulligan." Like, replacing a normal mulligan with an
extended-extra-option mulligan. If that makes any sense...


> >But the weird thing about this card is, it affects the game from the
> >library. Before it's in your hand, in play, in the graveyard or anywhere
> >else, the "effect" generated by the card is in effect and allows you to
> >break the 4 card in library rule.
>
> Right. This is a static ability, but it has to be active in any zone at
all,
> and in particular has to be active before the game even begins. Weird,
right?

I wonder if it works from the Out of the Game zone... Also, it's kinda odd
that it allows your opponent to have more than 4 copies of the card as well.
Of course, her deck would anyway.


> Even weirder: this -overrides the Golden Rule as stated-. Because the
Golden
> Rule as stated says you can't override the rules in 100.*-101.*, yet this
> card skitters straight past 100.2 in declaring that it isn't subject to
"no
> more than four of any card with a particular English name other than basic
> land cards."...

Jeez, that's weird. I hadn't thought of that.
Although, I always thought that the Golden Rule was a paradox, sorta. To
say that cards override the rules, except the rules from 100-101, well,
that's fine until a card overrides one of those rules, thus overriding the
Golden Rule...


> >I guess on further review it's not that different than cards that change
> >your maximum hand size.
>
> Well, the only ones of those that actually work before the game starts, at
> present, are the Vanguard cards, which aren't technically Magic cards at
all.
> It is actually fairly different from nearly anything else we've got.
(There's
> at least one other card whose effect works from the library... and the
ante
> cards, technically, have part of their effect work before the game starts
at
> all... but those don't override something the Golden Rule says can't be
> overridden.)

Yeah. See, I'm looking at these rules from an implementation standpoint,
and rules that change fundamentals that AREN'T related to cards, permanents,
etc. are a little weirder to implement. But Daniel was right, this is a
simple static ability that creates a static effect that overrides that
particular rule for any game in which a deck with Relentless Rats is
included.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to the FAQ/Rules update.
Peter