Leonin Elder and Mycosynth Lattice

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

If Mycosynth Lattice is in play, and a Leonin Elder comes into play (as an
artifact, due to Lattice), does it trigger its own gain-1-life ability?

I notice that both Soul Warden and Auriok Champion trigger off creatures
other than themselves - is this for balance or rule reasons?

Cheers,
Grant

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Grant Anderson <gpsanderson@hotmail.com> wrote:
>If Mycosynth Lattice is in play, and a Leonin Elder comes into play (as an
>artifact, due to Lattice), does it trigger its own gain-1-life ability?

Yes, it does.

>I notice that both Soul Warden and Auriok Champion trigger off creatures
>other than themselves - is this for balance or rule reasons?

For balance, partly. If they did _not_ specify that they only triggered
off other creatures coming into play, their ability would happily do so;
410.10a specifies that all permanents in play (including ones that just
now came into play) that have CIP triggered abilities get checked to see
if they match what just came into play.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David DeLaney wrote:

> Grant Anderson <gpsanderson@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>If Mycosynth Lattice is in play, and a Leonin Elder comes into play
(as an
>>artifact, due to Lattice), does it trigger its own gain-1-life ability?
>
>
> Yes, it does.

Leonin Elder
{W}
Creature -- Cat Cleric
1/1
Whenever an artifact comes into play, you may gain 1 life.

Can someone break down the sequencing on this with rule citations?
(The 410.10a reference helped...)

I thought an objects abilities don't generally apply until it is in play.
(I may be having trouble with continuous effects here...)

It would seem that the Elder must come into play _before_ his ability
is "in play". (Bad term, feel free to correct it.)

The "whenever" makes me feel that this is different than an ability
such as "All your creatures have +1/+1" which would affect the
creature simultaneously with it coming into play.

It just seems that "Whenever an artifact comes into play" needs to
exist before the artifact comes into play.

There's no time lag between a creature coming into play and
its abilities "kicking" in, but it just really sounds
counter-intuitive that it can look for an effect that _must_ occur
for it to even start looking!

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Sorcier <sNoErMcOier@cavtel.net> writes:
> David DeLaney wrote:
> > Grant Anderson <gpsanderson@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>If Mycosynth Lattice is in play, and a Leonin Elder comes into
> >>play (as an artifact, due to Lattice), does it trigger its own
> >>gain-1-life ability?
> >
> >
> > Yes, it does.
>
> Leonin Elder
> {W}
> Creature -- Cat Cleric
> 1/1
> Whenever an artifact comes into play, you may gain 1 life.
>
> Can someone break down the sequencing on this with rule citations?
> (The 410.10a reference helped...)

I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for here besides
410.10a... It defines when "comes into play" triggers will trigger. It
might help to think of it as triggering just after anything comes into
play, looking back to see what came into play (which could, of course,
be itself).

> I thought an objects abilities don't generally apply until it is in play.
> (I may be having trouble with continuous effects here...)
>
> It would seem that the Elder must come into play _before_ his ability
> is "in play". (Bad term, feel free to correct it.)

I can see how you would get that intuition, but if that were the case,
how would any "When ~this~ comes into play..." abilities work?

> The "whenever" makes me feel that this is different than an ability
> such as "All your creatures have +1/+1" which would affect the
> creature simultaneously with it coming into play.
>
> It just seems that "Whenever an artifact comes into play" needs to
> exist before the artifact comes into play.

Well, the rules say that it doesn't... It just needs to exist
simultaneously with the artifact coming into play.

> There's no time lag between a creature coming into play and
> its abilities "kicking" in, but it just really sounds
> counter-intuitive that it can look for an effect that _must_ occur
> for it to even start looking!

Leaves-play abilities likewise "look back in time" to see what
triggers were in play at the time that they left (see
410.10d). Basically, the rules say to handle these comes-into-play and
leaves-play triggers specially, because they need to in order for them
to work.

Does that help?

--
Peter C.
A chicken is an egg's way of producing more eggs

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Sorcier <sNoErMcOier@cavtel.net> wrote:
>David DeLaney wrote:
>> Grant Anderson <gpsanderson@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>If Mycosynth Lattice is in play, and a Leonin Elder comes into play (as an
>>>artifact, due to Lattice), does it trigger its own gain-1-life ability?
>>
>> Yes, it does.
>
>Leonin Elder W Creature -- Cat Cleric
>1/1 Whenever an artifact comes into play, you may gain 1 life.
>
>Can someone break down the sequencing on this with rule citations?

Leonin Elder comes into play, and applying continuous effects from the
Lattice's ability we find it is colorless and an artifact. (This in no way
changes its mana cost, converted mana cost, or creature types, or stops it
from being a creature too, or removes any ability it has.)

Then we see what triggered abilities trigger off of coming into play,
and the Elder's ability says "look, an artifact! It just came into play! I
trigger! Fear me! Well, maybe quake in terror of me, because Fear is a keyword
.... no, Terror is a card name... look, just do it, okay?"

This is actually covered in more than one place in the rulebook, but 418.2 is
the most concise about it. 410.10a and 410.10b together describe it with an
actual example included.

>The "whenever" makes me feel that this is different than an ability
>such as "All your creatures have +1/+1" which would affect the
>creature simultaneously with it coming into play.
>
>It just seems that "Whenever an artifact comes into play" needs to
>exist before the artifact comes into play.

Nope. Triggered abilities, in general see if they exist just _after_ their
trigger event. The exception, and these are very numerous so don't feel bad
about getting confused, is _specifically_ leaves-play triggered abilities
(and abilities that trigger off of someone _losing_, specifically, control
of a permanent); those look at the game situation just BEFORE their trigger
event, to determine if they existed then and who controlled their source.

Comes-into-play abilities, in particular, get checked only after continuous
effects have been "painted onto" whatever just came into play, and thus
Humility or Titania's Song can make them unable to trigger at all. And the
CIP ability's controller is the player who controls the permanent, NOT the
player who controlled the spell or ability which put it into play, or the
card's owner.

You may want to glance at the entry for Comes Into Play also, and bear in mind
while you read that that all of "as this comes into play", "this comes into
play as", "this comes into play with", and "this comes into play tapped" are
replacement effects.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.