Hypnotic Specter/Guiltfeeder, which comes first?

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I have a Hypnotic Specter and a Guiltfeeder in play. My opponent has 3 cards
in hand and 3 in his graveyard.

Hypnotic Specter
1BB
2/2 Flying. An opponent damaged by Specter discards a card at
random from his or her hand.

Guiltfeeder
3BB
0/4 Guiltfeeder can't be blocked except by artifact and black creatures.
Whenever Guiltfeeder attacks and isn't blocked, defending player
loses 1 life for each card in his or her graveyard.

So the question is, at the damage step, what order do things occur? Is it
possible for the Guiltfeeder to hit my opponent for 4 damage (3 cards in
graveyard plus the 1 discard from Specter) or is this just not gonna happen?

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

LBradH <lbradh@aol.commmono> wrote:

> I have a Hypnotic Specter and a Guiltfeeder in play. My opponent has 3 cards
> in hand and 3 in his graveyard.
>
> Hypnotic Specter
> 1BB
> 2/2 Flying. An opponent damaged by Specter discards a card at
> random from his or her hand.

Hypnotic Specter
{1}{B}{B}
Creature -- Specter
2/2
Flying
Whenever Hypnotic Specter deals damage to an opponent, that player
discards a card at random from his or her hand.

> Guiltfeeder
> 3BB
> 0/4 Guiltfeeder can't be blocked except by artifact and black creatures.
> Whenever Guiltfeeder attacks and isn't blocked, defending player
> loses 1 life for each card in his or her graveyard.

Guiltfeeder
{3}{B}{B}
Creature -- Horror
0/4
Fear
Whenever Guiltfeeder attacks and isn't blocked, defending player loses 1
life for each card in his or her graveyard.

Attacks and Isn't Blocked
An ability that triggers when a creature "attacks and isn't blocked"
triggers when the creature becomes an unblocked attacking creature. See
rule 309.2f.

309. Declare Blockers Step

309.2f An attacking creature with one or more creatures declared as
blockers for it becomes a blocked creature; one with no blockers becomes
an unblocked creature. The creature's status remains unchanged until the
creature is removed from combat or the combat phase ends, whichever
comes first. (Some effects can change a creature's status.)

> So the question is, at the damage step, what order do things occur?

306. Combat Phase

306.1. The combat phase has five steps, which proceed in order:
beginning of combat, declare attackers, declare blockers, combat damage,
and end of combat. The declare blockers and combat damage steps are
skipped if no creatures are declared as attackers (see rule 308.4).
There are two combat damage steps if any attacking or blocking creature
has first strike (see rule 502.2) or double strike (see rule 502.28).

> Is it
> possible for the Guiltfeeder to hit my opponent for 4 damage (3 cards in
> graveyard plus the 1 discard from Specter) or is this just not gonna happen?

No. The Guiltfeeder's triggered ability has already resolved (in the
declare blockers step) by the time combat damage is put on the stack (in
the combat damage step).
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Daniel W. Johnson (panoptes@iquest.net) wrote:
: LBradH <lbradh@aol.commmono> wrote:

: Guiltfeeder
: {3}{B}{B}
: Creature -- Horror
: 0/4
: Fear
: Whenever Guiltfeeder attacks and isn't blocked, defending player loses 1
: life for each card in his or her graveyard.

: Attacks and Isn't Blocked
: An ability that triggers when a creature "attacks and isn't blocked"
: triggers when the creature becomes an unblocked attacking creature. See
: rule 309.2f.

Which, as an aside, also means that if you have somehow increased the
Guiltfeeder's power above 0, you'll get double duty from it: first it
hits the opponent for one life (that's *life*, not damage, so can't be
prevented) per card in graveyard when it isn't blocked, and then it
hits opponent again for combat damage equal to its power during normal
combat damage resolution. Wonderful card!

Feast of the Unicorn, anyone, or Loxodon's Hammer?


Keith

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

LBradH <lbradh@aol.commmono> wrote:
>I have a Hypnotic Specter and a Guiltfeeder in play. My opponent has 3 cards
>in hand and 3 in his graveyard.
>
>Hypnotic Specter 1BB
>2/2 Flying. An opponent damaged by Specter discards a card at
>random from his or her hand.

That's the wording on the -card- perhaps. [Checking ... no, UL had extra
(reminder-type) text, as did RV and 4E; it didn't appear in any other main
set or expansion. So you've got that from somewhere that does not quote exact
text AND does not have Oracle text available; you're not even typing it in
off an actual card in front of you.]

Hypnotic Specter 1BB Creature -- Specter
2/2 Flying Whenever ~ deals damage to an opponent, that player discards a card
at random from his or her hand.

>Guiltfeeder 3BB
>0/4 Guiltfeeder can't be blocked except by artifact and black creatures.
>Whenever Guiltfeeder attacks and isn't blocked, defending player
>loses 1 life for each card in his or her graveyard.

That's not typed off the card either. The Fear text had been using "and/or"
for quite some time by the time Guiltfeeder came out.

When possible, cut and paste from Oracle, rather than typing things in; even
when you're -sure- you've copied something exactly, you may suffer difficulties
with the source, or might just not see that a difference in what you typed
actually makes a difference in the answer.

Guiltfeeder 3BB Creature -- Horror
0/4 Fear Whenever ~ attacks and isn't blocked, defending player loses 1 life
for each card in his or her graveyard.

>So the question is, at the damage step, what order do things occur?

Well, only one of these occurs "at the damage step".

Guiltfeeder triggers off of blocker declaration, so goes on the stack right
after declare-blockers step starts, and must resolve BEFORE combat damage
gets to go on the stack at all.

Hypnotic Specter doesn't trigger until combat damage has _resolved_, some
time during the next step (or possibly step after next, if First Strike or
Double Strike is involved), and resolves after -that- (but still during
combat-damage step).

So Guiltfeeder's ability _always_ counts cards some time before Hypnotic
Specter makes someone discard, in the same Combat phase.

> Is it
>possible for the Guiltfeeder to hit my opponent for 4 damage (3 cards in
>graveyard plus the 1 discard from Specter) or is this just not gonna happen?

This is just not gonna happen, because Guiltfeeder's ability resolves at least
one step, and sometimes two, before Hypnotic Specter's even gets to trigger.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.