Treachery and Pro Blue Creature

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hi all,

Player A has a miscellaneous creature in play. Player B plays
Treachery and attempts to enchant player A's creature. Player A
responds by tapping Mother of Runes and giving his miscellaneous
creature protection from blue.

Since the miscellaneous creature is now an illegal target, is
Treachery countered on resolution (i.e. does the whole thing
fizzle) or can player B still untap up to five lands?

Treachery
{3}{U}{U}
Enchant Creature
When Treachery comes into play, if you played it from your hand,
untap up to five lands.
You control enchanted creature.

Mother of Runes
{W}
Creature -- Cleric
1/1
{T}: Target creature you control gains protection from the color
of your choice until end of turn.

Thanks!

- Dave

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Dave <im@not.telling> sent:
> Hi all,

> Player A has a miscellaneous creature in play. Player B plays
> Treachery and attempts to enchant player A's creature.

Selecting player A's creature as target, paying 3UU.

> Player A
> responds by tapping Mother of Runes and giving his miscellaneous
> creature protection from blue.

Good call, as long as Mom was in play and not summon-sick, that works
just fine.

> Since the miscellaneous creature is now an illegal target, is
> Treachery countered on resolution (i.e. does the whole thing
> fizzle) or can player B still untap up to five lands?

Treachery will be countered on resolution, and not come into play;
consequently, its ability that triggers on it coming into play (if
played from hand) won't trigger.

The same thing occurs with the spells that untap the lands as part of
their resolution, such as Rewind - if I play a spell, and my opponent
casts Rewind on it, and I then Memory Lapse my spell, the Rewind will
be countered on resolution for illegal target and none of its effect
will happen - including the untapping of the lands.

Rewind {2}{U}{U} Instant
/ Counter target spell, then untap up to four lands.

Memory Lapse {1}{U} Instant
/ Counter target spell. If you do, put it on top of its owner's library
instead of into that player's graveyard.

Basic gist is - if the spell gets countered, none of the stuff that
would normally happen actually happens.

--
-- zoe

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"David DeLaney" <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote in message
news:slrncchskf.tdi.dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com...
> On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 09:27:13 -0500, Dave <im@not.telling> wrote:
> >Player A has a miscellaneous creature in play. Player B plays
> >Treachery and attempts to enchant player A's creature. Player A
> >responds by tapping Mother of Runes and giving his miscellaneous
> >creature protection from blue.
>
> The Treachery spell will then be countered on resolution, since its only
> target has become illegal in response.
>
> >Since the miscellaneous creature is now an illegal target, is
> >Treachery countered on resolution (i.e. does the whole thing
> >fizzle) or can player B still untap up to five lands?
>
> The spell is countered. Countered spells that WOULD create permanents have
> no effect, and go to the graveyard from the stack; they never make it into
> play. Thus Treachery's ability which triggers "when Treachery comes into play"
> never gets to trigger at all, let alone wait on the stack for responses after
> Treachery is in play, or resolve and have ITS effect.
>
> No land untapping.
>
> >Treachery 3UU Enchant Creature
> > When ~ comes into play, if you played it from your hand, untap up to five
> > lands. / You control enchanted creature.

What if instead of saying "When ~ comes into play", it just said,
"Untap up to five lands". Would you now get to untap the lands
since there's no longer any comes into play requirement?

- Dave

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Dave <im@not.telling> wrote:
>> > When ~ comes into play, if you played it from your hand, untap up to five
>> > lands. / You control enchanted creature.
>
>What if instead of saying "When ~ comes into play", it just said,
>"Untap up to five lands". Would you now get to untap the lands
>since there's no longer any comes into play requirement?

No; again, a countered spell _has no effects at all_ of any sort. It goes
from the stack directly to the graveyard, without resolving in any way.

Plus which, nonSorcery nonInstant spells don't -have-, in general, effects
on resolution _other_ than "put permanent into play". Some of the cards
have abilities that modify HOW to put the permanent into play - "tapped",
"with these counters", "under Foo's control", "as a copy of Bar", etc. None
of them have a separate effect of the Enchantment/Artifact/Creature spell
that's something other than "put it into play as a permanent" (which usually
isn't even stated on the card, it's in the rulebook).

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:

> Some of the cards
> have abilities that modify HOW to put the permanent into play - "tapped",
> "with these counters", "under Foo's control", "as a copy of Bar", etc.

Or the classic "If Phyrexian Dreadnought would come into play...."

But yes, there are no permanents with a side effect stated simply.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 11 Jun 2004 16:50:22 GMT, djaxmann@aol.computer (Andy Jakcsy)
wrote:

>Dave sez:
>
><<
>>> >Treachery 3UU Enchant Creature
>>> > When ~ comes into play, if you played it from your hand, untap up to five
>>> > lands. / You control enchanted creature.
>>
>>What if instead of saying "When ~ comes into play", it just said,
>>"Untap up to five lands".

>It would then be totally useless, because there's no timing on it. WHEN do you
>untap up to five lands? when the creature comes under your control? When
>Treachery leaves play? When the creature leaves play?
>
>That wording works on instants and sorceries because there's only one time
>anything happens on them: When the spell resolves.

It could say: "When ~ resolves", but that would just be a different
way of saying: "When ~ comes into play".

Another possibility would be: "When ~ is played", which should work
just like the "when you cycle ~" triggers as seen on eg. Slice and
Dice and Decree of X. The extra effect trigger just after the original
spell hits the stack - the extra effect can still be countered (using
Stifle and the like), but it would be independent of whether the spell
itself is countered.
For example Storm works like this - first it spawns a new effect, and
when that effect resolves it puts a bunch of copies on the stack.

Storm (When you play this spell, copy it for each spell played before
it this turn. You may choose new targets for the copies.)

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Dave <im@not.telling> wrote:
>> No; again, a countered spell _has no effects at all_ of any sort. It goes
>> from the stack directly to the graveyard, without resolving in any way.
>
>I'm assuming this would apply to abilities as well. For example:

Right.

>Savage Gorilla 4G Creature -- Ape
>3/3 UB,Tap,Sacrifice ~: Target creature gets -3/-3 until end of turn. Draw a
> card.
>
>If the creature the Savage Gorilla targeted became untargetable,
>you wouldn't get to draw the card then, correct?

Right. That's all one ability; it has one target; if the target becomes
illegal in response, the ability gets countered on resolution, rather than
resolving. No effect. Not "the targetted part has no effect" - the entire
ability is countered. (If there's more than one target, the ability or spell
gets countered if ALL the targets are illegal on resolution.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

uj551@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca (Keith Piddington) writes:
> David DeLaney (dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com) wrote:
> : Dave <im@not.telling> wrote:
> : >Savage Gorilla 4G Creature -- Ape
> : >3/3 UB,Tap,Sacrifice ~: Target creature gets -3/-3 until end of
> : >turn. Draw a card.
> : >
> : >If the creature the Savage Gorilla targeted became untargetable,
> : >you wouldn't get to draw the card then, correct?
> :
> : Right. That's all one ability; it has one target; if the target
> : becomes illegal in response, the ability gets countered on
> : resolution, rather than resolving.
>
> If the intent was for the "Draw a card" part of the ability to function
> independently of the other part, how would this have to be worded?
> (In other words, how could it be set up such that you'd draw the card
> regardless of whether the -3/-3 happened or even if there were no
> targetable creatures?)

It'd probably need to be worded something like the Oracle wording for
Gilded Drake, saying that it can't be countered. (They could probably
word it as just "can't be countered by the rules for having illegal
targets", if they wanted Stifle and the like to work on it.)

,----[ Oracle ]
| Gilded Drake
| {1}{U}
| Creature -- Drake
| 3/3
| Flying
| When Gilded Drake comes into play, choose one -- sacrifice Gilded
| Drake; or exchange control of Gilded Drake and target creature an
| opponent controls. If you can't make the exchange, sacrifice Gilded
| Drake. This ability can't be countered. (This effect doesn't end at
| end of turn.)
`----

> Though I know they're linked, having the ability's wording broken
> into 2 separate sentences like that certainly makes it *look* like
> they're independent...

Well, many things in Magic don't work exactly the way they might look
to new players... There's enough complicated card interactions that
you really need forums like this one to answer these kinds of
questions.

--
Peter C.
"The chocolate chip cookie shall be the official cookie of the
commonwealth."
-- Mass. General Law, Chapter 2, Section 42.