Seedborn Muse and Vedalken Shackles

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Hi all,

I have a question here regarding the interaction between Seedborn Muse
and Vedalken Shackles. Any help is appreciated!

Let's assume I control a Seedborn Muse and one Vedalken Shackles. For
example's sake, let's says the Shackles is tapped targetting a Bear.
Since I can choose not to untap during the Shackles during my upkeep, I
will keep control of it, however, during opponent's upkeep, the Bear
will return to my opponent's control since it has been untapped (due to
the Muse's triggered ability). Is this the case? I assume, once
untapped, I can re-target the Bear and gain control of it again
(assuming that by resolution time, it's power is still less than or
equal to the Islands I control).

As an additional question, if I play Day of the Dragons and then destroy
it (Naturalize it, for example), the Bear will now return under my
control and I can safely used the Shackles on another creature without
losing control of it, right?

Thanks in advance for any reply anybody can provide!
 
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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Francisco Ho, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> Hi all,
>
> I have a question here regarding the interaction between Seedborn Muse
> and Vedalken Shackles. Any help is appreciated!
>
> Let's assume I control a Seedborn Muse and one Vedalken Shackles. For
> example's sake, let's says the Shackles is tapped targetting a Bear.
> Since I can choose not to untap during the Shackles during my upkeep, I
> will keep control of it, however, during opponent's upkeep, the Bear
> will return to my opponent's control since it has been untapped (due to
> the Muse's triggered ability). Is this the case?

Seedborn Muse
{3}{G}{G}
Creature -- Spirit
2/4
Untap all permanents you control during each other player's untap step.

Vedalken Shackles
{3}
Artifact
You may choose not to untap Vedalken Shackles during your untap step.
{2}, {T}: Gain control of target creature with power less than or equal
to the number of Islands you control as long as Vedalken Shackles
remains tapped.

Correct. Seedborn Muse's ability is not optional, and will indeed cause
Vedalken Shackles (and the various other "tap-and-hold" cards - there
were quite a lot of them back in the day) to untap.

> I assume, once
> untapped, I can re-target the Bear and gain control of it again
> (assuming that by resolution time, it's power is still less than or
> equal to the Islands I control).

Certainly. And since your lands will just have untapped, mana shouldn't
be an issue.

> As an additional question, if I play Day of the Dragons and then destroy
> it (Naturalize it, for example), the Bear will now return under my
> control and I can safely used the Shackles on another creature without
> losing control of it, right?

Day of the Dragons
{4}{U}{U}{U}
Enchantment
When Day of the Dragons comes into play, remove all creatures you
control from the game. Then put that many 5/5 red Dragon creature tokens
with flying into play.
When Day of the Dragons leaves play, sacrifice all Dragons you control.
Then return the removed cards to play under your control.

Right (assuming you controlled the Bears when DotD's triggered ability
went off, of course). I'm not going to unravel all the details of the
continuous effects involved, because at this hour I'm bound to get some
fine point wrong and confuse you further, but basically you'll control
the Bears independantly of what Vedalken Shackles is doing at that point
(in fact, the game doesn't even know that this is the same Bears that
the Shackles were previously used to grab hold of - they come back into
play as a completely new permanent with no memory of what happened to it
before). You're free to Shackle yourself a different creature.

Note that this doesn't work for most other Flicker-like effects, such as
Astral Slide, because most of them specify that creatures come back into
play under their *owner's* control, and if you were using the Shackles
on the Bears, presumably you're not their owner.

> Thanks in advance for any reply anybody can provide!
 
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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 04:22:27 GMT, Francisco Ho <fxho@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I have a question here regarding the interaction between Seedborn Muse
>and Vedalken Shackles. Any help is appreciated!

Vedalken Shackles: "You may choose not to untap ~ during your untap step."

Seedborn Muse: "Untap all permanents you control during each other player's
untap step."

These two abilities do not interact at ALL. The Shackles doesn't say anything
about being able to choose to keep it tapped on someone ELSE'S untap step,
so your Muse will untap your Shackles on opponent's untap step just fine, and
the effect giving you control of the creature you stole with the Shackles
will end.

>Let's assume I control a Seedborn Muse and one Vedalken Shackles. For
>example's sake, let's says the Shackles is tapped targetting a Bear.

Then when the ability resolves, if you control two or more Islands (assuming
this is the canonical Bear, Grizzly Bears, and that its power hasn't been
changed by anything), you'll gain control of the Bear.

The next time opponent has an untap step, the Muse will cause your VShackles
to untap, and the Bear will return to its former controller.

>Since I can choose not to untap during the Shackles during my upkeep,

Shackles doesn't say that anywhere. Read the card please.

>I will keep control of it, however, during opponent's upkeep, the Bear
>will return to my opponent's control

Nope. Nothing of the sort will happen during ANYONE'S upkeep.

On opponent's _untap_ step you'll lose the Bear.

>I assume, once
>untapped, I can re-target the Bear and gain control of it again
>(assuming that by resolution time, it's power is still less than or
>equal to the Islands I control).

Oh, sure, but you'll have to wait until the upkeep step of that turn to
do so (or the first step in which players get priority, if upkeep's getting
skipped). The Bear will definitely have left your control for a short time
before you can try to get it back.

>As an additional question, if I play Day of the Dragons and then destroy
>it (Naturalize it, for example), the Bear will now return under my
>control and I can safely used the Shackles on another creature without
>losing control of it, right?

As long as you _wait to destroy it_ until after its comes-into-play ability
has resolved, then sure. Day of the Dragons specifically fails to say "under
their owners' control"; you get back any cards that you controlled as Day
removed them, regardless of why you controlled them then.

(If you destroy it _before_ it's actually removed anything, then it'll remove
all your creatures and you'll never get them back, just like with Worldgorger
Dragon or one of the Nightmare-class creatures in the same sort of situation.)

Dave
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