Energy Chamber (Fifth Dawn)

[sullivan]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Energy Chamber (Artifact | 2 | Colorless)
At the beginning of your upkeep, choose one -
Put a +1/+1 counter on target artifact creature;
or put a charge counter on target noncreature artifact.

It think, putting a counter (either +1/+1 or a charge counter)
is mandatory when having Energy Chamber in play. So, if I neither
have an artifact creature in play, nor an artifact which makes use
of charge counters, can I then e.g. put a +1/+1 or charge counter
on the Energy Chamber itself (resp. on the artifact which does not
make use of charge counters)? (Instead of putting a counter on one
of my opponent's cards.)

If so, can I choose whether the counter I put on Energy chamber
(resp. on the artifact which does not make use of counters) is a
+1/+1 counter or a charge counter, or does it then have to be a
charge counter?

Any help appreciated! Thanks! S.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Sullivan <sullivan@phreaker.net> wrote:

> Energy Chamber (Artifact | 2 | Colorless)
> At the beginning of your upkeep, choose one -
> Put a +1/+1 counter on target artifact creature;
> or put a charge counter on target noncreature artifact.
>
> It think, putting a counter (either +1/+1 or a charge counter)
> is mandatory when having Energy Chamber in play. So, if I neither
> have an artifact creature in play, nor an artifact which makes use
> of charge counters, can I then e.g. put a +1/+1 or charge counter
> on the Energy Chamber itself (resp. on the artifact which does not
> make use of charge counters)? (Instead of putting a counter on one
> of my opponent's cards.)

The Energy Chamber is as valid a target for that ability as any other
artifact. The second mode does NOT say "put a charge counter on target
noncreature artifact that has a use for charge counters". Also, neither
mode requires that the target be under your control.

> If so, can I choose whether the counter I put on Energy chamber
> (resp. on the artifact which does not make use of counters) is a
> +1/+1 counter or a charge counter, or does it then have to be a
> charge counter?

If you choose the first mode, the target must be an artifact CREATURE.
If you choose the second mode, the target must be a NONCREATURE
artifact. Either way, the type of counter is fixed by the time you
choose the target; you can not use this to put a +1/+1 counter on a
noncreature artifact.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Sullivan wrote:

> Energy Chamber (Artifact | 2 | Colorless)
> At the beginning of your upkeep, choose one -
> Put a +1/+1 counter on target artifact creature;
> or put a charge counter on target noncreature artifact.
>
> It think, putting a counter (either +1/+1 or a charge counter)
> is mandatory when having Energy Chamber in play.

Correct. It doesn't say "You may". You *must* play a counter
if you can. Theoretically you might be unable to, if you manage
to make the Chamber untargettable (there's probably a way, but
I'm too lazy to look one up).

> So, if I neither
> have an artifact creature in play, nor an artifact which makes use
> of charge counters, can I then e.g. put a +1/+1 or charge counter
> on the Energy Chamber itself (resp. on the artifact which does not
> make use of charge counters)?

Well, unless you animated the Chamber in some fashion, it's going
to be a charge counter, but yeah, you can do that.

> (Instead of putting a counter on one
> of my opponent's cards.)

Yep. There is no requirement that artifact receiving the charge
counters actually be able to use them, or mention charge counters
at all in its rules text.

>
> If so, can I choose whether the counter I put on Energy chamber
> (resp. on the artifact which does not make use of counters) is a
> +1/+1 counter or a charge counter, or does it then have to be a
> charge counter?

Well, it has to be a charge counter. You don't get a choice on
that--if the artifact is a creature, it *must* be +1/+1 counter;
if the artifact is *not* a creature, it *must* be a charge counter.
>
> Any help appreciated! Thanks! S.

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Daniel W. Johnson <panoptes@iquest.net> wrote:

> If you choose the first mode, the target must be an artifact CREATURE.
> If you choose the second mode, the target must be a NONCREATURE
> artifact. Either way, the type of counter is fixed by the time you
> choose the target; you can not use this to put a +1/+1 counter on a
> noncreature artifact.

I just had a thought (which DeLaney will probably have to answer):

If there are no artifact creatures in play at all, could a player choose
the first mode and then have the ability removed from the stack when no
suitable target can be found?
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Daniel W. Johnson wrote:
> Daniel W. Johnson <panoptes@iquest.net> wrote:
>
>
>>If you choose the first mode, the target must be an artifact CREATURE.
>>If you choose the second mode, the target must be a NONCREATURE
>>artifact. Either way, the type of counter is fixed by the time you
>>choose the target; you can not use this to put a +1/+1 counter on a
>>noncreature artifact.
>
>
> I just had a thought (which DeLaney will probably have to answer):
>
> If there are no artifact creatures in play at all, could a player choose
> the first mode and then have the ability removed from the stack when no
> suitable target can be found?

No. Because when you choose the first you would need to be able to
choose the valid target.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Daniel W. Johnson wrote:

> Daniel W. Johnson <panoptes@iquest.net> wrote:
>
>> If you choose the first mode, the target must be an artifact CREATURE.
>> If you choose the second mode, the target must be a NONCREATURE
>> artifact. Either way, the type of counter is fixed by the time you
>> choose the target; you can not use this to put a +1/+1 counter on a
>> noncreature artifact.
>
> I just had a thought (which DeLaney will probably have to answer):
>
> If there are no artifact creatures in play at all, could a player choose
> the first mode and then have the ability removed from the stack when no
> suitable target can be found?

No. Making the first choice requires identifying a legal target for
it. If you can't so identify a legal target, you cannot make the first
choice--which means you must make the second.
--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"

 

[sullivan]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 14:32:12 -0500, Daniel W. Johnson wrote:

>> If so, can I choose whether the counter I put on Energy chamber
>> (resp. on the artifact which does not make use of counters) is a
>> +1/+1 counter or a charge counter, or does it then have to be a
>> charge counter?
>
> If you choose the first mode, the target must be an artifact CREATURE.
> If you choose the second mode, the target must be a NONCREATURE
> artifact. Either way, the type of counter is fixed by the time you
> choose the target; you can not use this to put a +1/+1 counter on a
> noncreature artifact.

Yes (obviously!). That part of my question was quite stupid.

Thanks a lot for your answer!

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Sullivan sez:

<<
>Energy Chamber (Artifact | 2 | Colorless)
> At the beginning of your upkeep, choose one -
> Put a +1/+1 counter on target artifact creature;
> or put a charge counter on target noncreature artifact.
>
>It think, putting a counter (either +1/+1 or a charge counter)
>is mandatory when having Energy Chamber in play. So, if I neither
>have an artifact creature in play, nor an artifact which makes use
>of charge counters, can I then e.g. put a +1/+1 or charge counter
>on the Energy Chamber itself (resp. on the artifact which does not
>make use of charge counters)? (Instead of putting a counter on one
>of my opponent's cards.)

>
>>

Sure. There's no restriction that the card actually has to USE the charge
counter...and it has some minor combo-ability with cards like Power Conduit and
Ion Storm...

<<
>If so, can I choose whether the counter I put on Energy chamber
>(resp. on the artifact which does not make use of counters) is a
>+1/+1 counter or a charge counter, or does it then have to be a
>charge counter?
>>

Well, no, it has to be a charge counter, unless it's being affected by March of
the Machines...then it has to be a +1/+1 counter...but that's set in which mode
you chose...


----
"If President Bush is going to take credit for 'the invisble hand' [of
economics], then he's going to take the blame when 'the hand' gives him the
finger."
--From Fark.com

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 21:03:33 +0200, Sullivan <sullivan@phreaker.net> wrote:
>Energy Chamber (Artifact | 2 | Colorless)
> At the beginning of your upkeep, choose one -
> Put a +1/+1 counter on target artifact creature;
> or put a charge counter on target noncreature artifact.
>
>It think, putting a counter (either +1/+1 or a charge counter)
>is mandatory when having Energy Chamber in play.

Yes. It triggers regardless, and the effect doesn't say "may". But note that
you can put charge counters on something that doesn't use them for anything,
such as the Chamber itself.

>So, if I neither
>have an artifact creature in play, nor an artifact which makes use
>of charge counters, can I then e.g. put a +1/+1 or charge counter
>on the Energy Chamber itself (resp. on the artifact which does not
>make use of charge counters)? (Instead of putting a counter on one
>of my opponent's cards.)

You can put a charge counter on it if it's a noncreature artifact, which
it usually will be. You can't target it with the first mode unless it's an
artifact creature.

Note that if you pick a mode for which there are no legal targets, you can't
continue, and remove the ability from the stack, I believe.

>If so, can I choose whether the counter I put on Energy chamber
>(resp. on the artifact which does not make use of counters) is a
>+1/+1 counter or a charge counter, or does it then have to be a
>charge counter?

How did you target it - with which mode? You choose mode before you choose
targets. And you can't pick it as a target unless it matches the targetting
specs. This means that almost all the time you'll have picked the second
mode, and picked the Energy Chamber as "target noncreature artifact". If
you pick the first mode, you can't then target the EC unless it's an
artifact creature -at the time- - turning it into an artifact creature in
response can only cause the target to be illegal on resolution, you can't
pick an illegal target in the first place and make it legal in response.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Daniel W. Johnson <panoptes@iquest.net> wrote:
>I just had a thought (which DeLaney will probably have to answer):
>
>If there are no artifact creatures in play at all, could a player choose
>the first mode and then have the ability removed from the stack when no
>suitable target can be found?

As far as I can see, yes; nothing in choosing modes says you HAVE TO choose
a mode which in the _next_ step will turn out to have a legal target. I
don't think you get to 'force someone to use the one mode of the two which
has a legal target' because you haven't picked or even looked at targets yet
(other than deciding if you'll choose -optional- ones) at that time.

I'll ask, though.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Chris Mattern <matternc@comcast.net> wrote:
>Daniel W. Johnson wrote:
>> If there are no artifact creatures in play at all, could a player choose
>> the first mode and then have the ability removed from the stack when no
>> suitable target can be found?
>
>No. Making the first choice requires identifying a legal target for
>it. If you can't so identify a legal target, you cannot make the first
>choice--which means you must make the second.

No it doesn't. Look in the rulebook please; targets are NOT chosen until
after you're entirely done choosing modes. While you're choosing modes you
aren't yet thinking about which targets are legal, in any way.

(But I'll ask.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.