Goblin Brawler: equip vs. attach

[sullivan]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

I read an article by Jeff Zandi on Pojo's magic in which he reviews
a lot of Fifth Dawn cards. In particular, he says:

"... the five new equipment cards that can be ATTACHED as an
instant can target the Brawler successfully. Very tricky!"

But Rune Horvik explains in his Saturday School #80:

"You can't equip the Healer's Headdress to Goblin Brawler, even
when using the 'attach' ability. You're allowed to activate the
ability targeting the Brawler, but it will fail when it resolves,
as the Brawler can't be equipped. The phrase 'can't be equipped'
means that there can't be any equipment on it, and anything that
tries to move equipment onto the creature will fail."

So, Jeff Zandi is right when he says that such an equipment can
*target* the Goblin Brawler with the attach ability; but doing
so doesn't really make sense as Rune Horvik explains. The part
"... successfully. Very tricky!" of Jeff Zandi's statement shows,
that this is not what he had in mind.

Since we had a similar discussion in our playing group, I want
to ask here whether Rune Horvik is right and Jeff Zandi simply
misinterpreted the new equipments?

Thanks for your help! S.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"Sullivan" <sullivan@phreaker.net> wrote in message
newsan.2004.06.14.15.55.06.175326@phreaker.net...
<snip Attach/Equip question>
We had this same scenario in our first 5D Sealed Deck tournament at our
local shop. We didn't have an official judge on hand, so the store owner
made the call (after consulting a few players [who were not in the
tournament]). I was one of those players, and my stance on it was that it
can target it, but it can't resolve. That is, Goblin Brawler can't be
equipped at any time, no matter how the equipment would have been put on.
The wording for equipment is as follows:

Equip X (X: Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a sorcery.
This card comes into play unattached and stays in play if the creature
leaves play.)

To me, this means that the act of moving equipment around (even if it is at
sorcery speed) is still attaching. "Attach" is a general term for putting
equipment on a creature, while "Equip" is a subset of "Attach". "Equip" is
only used when an equipment's "Equip X" ability is used, and only at sorcey
speed. At least that was my input into our little Goblin Brawler dilemma. In
the end, the store owner ruled that Cranial Plating (or any other "Attach"
equipment) could not equip a Goblin Brawler.

I'd tend to believe Rune Horvik's ruling over Jeff Zandi, anyway, as Horvik
is not only a Level 4 judge, but writes a column for Wizards. Wizards
wouldn't allow a wrong ruling in a column whose sole purpose *is* rulings,
would they?

--

KB

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Sullivan, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> I read an article by Jeff Zandi on Pojo's magic in which he reviews
> a lot of Fifth Dawn cards. In particular, he says:
>
> "... the five new equipment cards that can be ATTACHED as an
> instant can target the Brawler successfully. Very tricky!"
>
> But Rune Horvik explains in his Saturday School #80:
>
> "You can't equip the Healer's Headdress to Goblin Brawler, even
> when using the 'attach' ability. You're allowed to activate the
> ability targeting the Brawler, but it will fail when it resolves,
> as the Brawler can't be equipped. The phrase 'can't be equipped'
> means that there can't be any equipment on it, and anything that
> tries to move equipment onto the creature will fail."
>
> So, Jeff Zandi is right when he says that such an equipment can
> *target* the Goblin Brawler with the attach ability; but doing
> so doesn't really make sense as Rune Horvik explains. The part
> "... successfully. Very tricky!" of Jeff Zandi's statement shows,
> that this is not what he had in mind.
>
> Since we had a similar discussion in our playing group, I want
> to ask here whether Rune Horvik is right and Jeff Zandi simply
> misinterpreted the new equipments?

Rune is correct. The equipment will never actually move to the Brawler,
even momentarily, as it can't legally exist there.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hello, Sullivan!
You wrote on Mon, 14 Jun 2004 17:55:07 +0200:

S> I read an article by Jeff Zandi on Pojo's magic in which he
S> reviews
S> a lot of Fifth Dawn cards. In particular, he says:

S> "... the five new equipment cards that can be ATTACHED as an
S> instant can target the Brawler successfully. Very tricky!"

If only Jeff looked at the following rule first:
212.2j The creature an Equipment is attached to is called the "equipped
creature." The Equipment is attached to, or "equips," that creature.
Goblin Brawler's "can't be equipped" means that an equipment cannot
*stay* on it as one equipping an illegal permanent. Or do I have
problems with English (I might, it's not my mother tongue)?

Regards,
Arkady.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Ken Briscoe <youcant@sendmespam.com> wrote:

> To me, this means that the act of moving equipment around (even if it is at
> sorcery speed) is still attaching. "Attach" is a general term for putting
> equipment on a creature, while "Equip" is a subset of "Attach".

"Attach" is a bit more general than that:

Local Enchantment
Local enchantments are a category of enchantments. A local enchantment is
labeled "Enchant [something]" and is attached to that [something] while in
play. See rule 212.4, "Enchantments."
If a local enchantment is enchanting an illegal permanent or player, the
permanent it was attached to no longer exists, or the player it was attached
to has left the game, the enchantment is put into its owner's graveyard. This
is a state-based effect. See rule 420.5.

Equipment
Some artifacts have the subtype "Equipment." These artifacts can be attached
to (can "equip") creatures. They can't equip objects that aren't creatures. An
Equipment is played and comes into play just like any other artifact.
Equipment doesn't come into play equipping a creature. The equip keyword
ability moves the Equipment onto a creature you control. (See rule 502.33,
"Equip.") The creature an Equipment is attached to is called "equipped." The
Equipment is attached to, or "equips," that creature.
An Equipment that's also a creature or an Equipment that loses the
subtype "Equipment" can't equip a creature. An Equipment can't equip itself.
An Equipment that equips an illegal or nonexistent permanent stops equipping
that permanent, but remains in play. (This is a state-based effect. See rule
420.)

> "Equip" is
> only used when an equipment's "Equip X" ability is used, and only at sorcey
> speed.

"Equip" is used for attaching equipment.

212.2j The creature an Equipment is attached to is called the "equipped
creature." The Equipment is attached to, or "equips," that creature.

> At least that was my input into our little Goblin Brawler dilemma. In
> the end, the store owner ruled that Cranial Plating (or any other "Attach"
> equipment) could not equip a Goblin Brawler.

There was a ruling for Licids that would seem to be relevant here:

702.Ruling.8 - If a Licid tries to enchant a creature that cannot be
enchanted, it will still move through to resolution because the Licid's
text does not require the thing it will enchant to be a legal thing to
enchant. During resolution it will then turn into an enchantment and try
to enchant the chosen permanent. Since the permanent cannot be enchanted,
the Licid is placed into the graveyard. [WotC Rules Team 2003/12/01]

Unlike an enchantment, equipment would not be placed into the graveyard after
such a failure. Also, if the equipment is already attached to a different
creature, it would stay there.

Move
To move a local enchantment, Equipment, or a counter means to take it from
where it currently is and put it onto an object or player. If the enchantment,
Equipment, or counter no longer exists or the object it will move onto is no
longer in the correct zone when the effect would move it, nothing happens.
Similarly, an enchantment or Equipment can't be moved onto a permanent it
couldn't enchant or equip; if this kind of move is attempted, the enchantment
or Equipment stays where it is.
A moved enchantment stops enchanting the previous permanent and starts
enchanting the new one, and it receives a new timestamp. Nothing else about
the enchantment changes. The enchantment never left play, so no
comes-into-play or leaves-play triggered abilities will trigger. If an ability
of the moved enchantment affecting "enchanted [permanent]" was on the stack
when the enchantment moved, it will affect the new enchanted permanent when it
resolves, not the old one. The same is true for moved Equipment.
The equip ability can move Equipment onto a creature or from one creature
to another.

> I'd tend to believe Rune Horvik's ruling over Jeff Zandi, anyway, as Horvik
> is not only a Level 4 judge, but writes a column for Wizards. Wizards
> wouldn't allow a wrong ruling in a column whose sole purpose *is* rulings,
> would they?


--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Sullivan <sullivan@phreaker.net> wrote:
>I read an article by Jeff Zandi on Pojo's magic in which he reviews
>a lot of Fifth Dawn cards. In particular, he says:
>
> "... the five new equipment cards that can be ATTACHED as an
> instant can target the Brawler successfully. Very tricky!"

Target, yes. Get attached to? No...

>But Rune Horvik explains in his Saturday School #80:
>
> "You can't equip the Healer's Headdress to Goblin Brawler, even
> when using the 'attach' ability. You're allowed to activate the
> ability targeting the Brawler, but it will fail when it resolves,
> as the Brawler can't be equipped. The phrase 'can't be equipped'
> means that there can't be any equipment on it, and anything that
> tries to move equipment onto the creature will fail."
>
>So, Jeff Zandi is right when he says that such an equipment can
>*target* the Goblin Brawler with the attach ability; but doing
>so doesn't really make sense as Rune Horvik explains. The part
>"... successfully. Very tricky!" of Jeff Zandi's statement shows,
>that this is not what he had in mind.

Someone might want to pop over to Pojo and note this, then...

>Since we had a similar discussion in our playing group, I want
>to ask here whether Rune Horvik is right and Jeff Zandi simply
>misinterpreted the new equipments?

Rune's right. (In general, Rune's right, versus random_web-based_article_
writer...) It's not -exactly- obvious, so it's not startling that Jeff got
the wrong impression... but stuff that 'can't be enchanted' or 'can't be
equipped' can't have enchantments/equipment attached to it - so when Equip
attempts to _move_ the Equipment onto the Brawler, it finds it can't, and
Does Nothing, leaving the Equipment where it was before.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Arkady Zilberberg <arkadyz1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>If only Jeff looked at the following rule first:
>212.2j The creature an Equipment is attached to is called the "equipped
>creature." The Equipment is attached to, or "equips," that creature.
>Goblin Brawler's "can't be equipped" means that an equipment cannot
>*stay* on it as one equipping an illegal permanent. Or do I have
>problems with English (I might, it's not my mother tongue)?

Well, it means that, yes. Due to how "move" works, it ALSO means that
any attempt to move an Equipment from somewhere else in play, _to_ "being
attached to the Brawler", will also Do Nothing - as you can't move an
Equipment or enchantment to something it can't legally be attached to.

(You also, for enchantments, can't "drop them onto" an illegal enchantee from
some other zone, if there's any choice about what they will enchant - they
stay in the other zone, instead.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.