what a play test ! question relating to grinding station, ..

[Phil]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

I was just play testing my grinding station deck against my tooth and
nail deck and just wont to check on what was a spectacular round and
if what occured was what I think occured.

Basically I'd got to the 5th round and had the following cards out on
the grinding station deck

grinding station, mesmeric orb and 2 disciple of the vaults and 1
vault of whispers
I had 8 artifacts in my graveyard (including artifact land)

on the the tooth and nail deck side I had 2 cloudposts, 2 ancient
dens, 2 tree of tales and a dark steel citadel
I had 20 cards in my graveyard thanks to grinding stone (15 of which
were artifact creatures and land)

Now here comes the spectacular bit I played roar of reclamation on the
tooth and nail side and brought back into play some of the morst
wonderful creatures you could ever wish for which, namely
1 bosh, 2 razormane masticores, 2 synod centurions, 3 juggernauts 2
platinum angels.

now if I understand the text of grinding station I should have been
able to easily tap, sacrifice, untap and so on for every artifact that
came back and thus deck the tooth and nail deck, but because he now
had platinum angels out he could not loose the game and I was toast in
his next round ?

Now I obviously have mixed feelings about that since the grinding
station deck is under developement and that was just one deck it can't
win against unless I had 2 shrapnel blasts in hand.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 13:21:01 GMT, Phil <phil@giltharn.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I was just play testing my grinding station deck against my tooth and
>nail deck and just wont to check on what was a spectacular round and
>if what occured was what I think occured.
>
>grinding station, mesmeric orb and 2 disciple of the vaults and 1
>vault of whispers
>I had 8 artifacts in my graveyard (including artifact land)
>
>on the the tooth and nail deck side I had 2 cloudposts, 2 ancient
>dens, 2 tree of tales and a dark steel citadel
>I had 20 cards in my graveyard thanks to grinding stone (15 of which
>were artifact creatures and land)
>
>Now here comes the spectacular bit I played roar of reclamation on the
>tooth and nail side and brought back into play some of the morst
>wonderful creatures you could ever wish for which, namely
>1 bosh, 2 razormane masticores, 2 synod centurions, 3 juggernauts 2
>platinum angels.

Brings back all the artifact cards from the Grinding Station deck's
graveyard, too, including the artifact lands. And yes, they all appear
untapped (other than ones that SAY they come into play tapped, of course).

>now if I understand the text of grinding station I should have been
>able to easily tap, sacrifice, untap and so on for every artifact that
>came back

Yes. It will trigger a total of 23 times all at once, here, during the Roar's
resolution. Then the Roar goes to the T&N deck's graveyard. Then all the
Grinding Station triggered abilities go on the stack; the GS deck's player
chooses their order. (Since it's probably the T&N deck's player's turn, any
triggered abilities of _that_ player's stuff also go on the stack at that
time, but _under_ all the GS abilities.)

>and thus deck the tooth and nail deck, but because he now
>had platinum angels out he could not loose the game and I was toast in
>his next round ?

Okay. "Decking" him doesn't make him lose. At all, ever. Drawing from an
empty library will make him lose - state-based effect 420.5g - but that
usually doesn't happen until some time -after- the last card gets taken out
of their library by GS. But yes, with Platinum Angel in play even that won't
cause him to lose, and he can beat you about the head and shoulders with
all those artifact creatures - then, to add insult, can Fling them at you
using Bosh, one by one, for more damage...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Phil]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 20 Jun 2004 12:01:59 -0400, dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney)
wrote:

>On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 13:21:01 GMT, Phil <phil@giltharn.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>I was just play testing my grinding station deck against my tooth and
>>nail deck and just wont to check on what was a spectacular round and
>>if what occured was what I think occured.
>>
>>grinding station, mesmeric orb and 2 disciple of the vaults and 1
>>vault of whispers
>>I had 8 artifacts in my graveyard (including artifact land)
>>
>>on the the tooth and nail deck side I had 2 cloudposts, 2 ancient
>>dens, 2 tree of tales and a dark steel citadel
>>I had 20 cards in my graveyard thanks to grinding stone (15 of which
>>were artifact creatures and land)
>>
>>Now here comes the spectacular bit I played roar of reclamation on the
>>tooth and nail side and brought back into play some of the morst
>>wonderful creatures you could ever wish for which, namely
>>1 bosh, 2 razormane masticores, 2 synod centurions, 3 juggernauts 2
>>platinum angels.
>
>Brings back all the artifact cards from the Grinding Station deck's
>graveyard, too, including the artifact lands. And yes, they all appear
>untapped (other than ones that SAY they come into play tapped, of course).
>
>>now if I understand the text of grinding station I should have been
>>able to easily tap, sacrifice, untap and so on for every artifact that
>>came back
>
>Yes. It will trigger a total of 23 times all at once, here, during the Roar's
>resolution. Then the Roar goes to the T&N deck's graveyard. Then all the
>Grinding Station triggered abilities go on the stack; the GS deck's player
>chooses their order. (Since it's probably the T&N deck's player's turn, any
>triggered abilities of _that_ player's stuff also go on the stack at that
>time, but _under_ all the GS abilities.)
>
>>and thus deck the tooth and nail deck, but because he now
>>had platinum angels out he could not loose the game and I was toast in
>>his next round ?
>
>Okay. "Decking" him doesn't make him lose. At all, ever. Drawing from an
>empty library will make him lose - state-based effect 420.5g - but that
>usually doesn't happen until some time -after- the last card gets taken out
>of their library by GS. But yes, with Platinum Angel in play even that won't
>cause him to lose, and he can beat you about the head and shoulders with
>all those artifact creatures - then, to add insult, can Fling them at you
>using Bosh, one by one, for more damage...
>
>Dave
>--
>\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
>It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
>Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
>http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.


It was worse than that too even iif the angels weren't out there were
also 2 darksteel colossuses in the deck which means I would never have
decked the tooth and nail it would have had 2 rounds to get me to
-100.

one more thing..... you seen to imply that whilst the tooth and nail
deck played the roar of reclamation it is my deck that is getting
first choice with the artifacts that are returning, which I kinda
understand because I am untapping, tapping and sacrificing as they are
comming into play. But does that actually mean I was making the
situation worse by putting more cards into his graveyard before the
resolution of the roar of restoration ?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Phil <phil@giltharn.demon.co.uk> sent:
> On 20 Jun 2004 12:01:59 -0400, dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney)
> wrote:

[a bit of Grinding Station, then a Roar of Reclamation putting lots if
artifacts into play]

>>>now if I understand the text of grinding station I should have been
>>>able to easily tap, sacrifice, untap and so on for every artifact that
>>>came back
>>
>>Yes. It will trigger a total of 23 times all at once, here, during the Roar's
>>resolution. Then the Roar goes to the T&N deck's graveyard. Then all the
>>Grinding Station triggered abilities go on the stack; the GS deck's player
>>chooses their order. (Since it's probably the T&N deck's player's turn, any
>>triggered abilities of _that_ player's stuff also go on the stack at that
>>time, but _under_ all the GS abilities.)
[...]

> one more thing..... you seen to imply that whilst the tooth and nail
> deck played the roar of reclamation it is my deck that is getting
> first choice with the artifacts that are returning, which I kinda
> understand because I am untapping, tapping and sacrificing as they are
> comming into play. But does that actually mean I was making the
> situation worse by putting more cards into his graveyard before the
> resolution of the roar of restoration ?

Roar of Reclamation {5}{W}{W} Sorcery
/ Each player returns all artifact cards from his or her graveyard to
play.

Grinding Station {2} Artifact
/ {T}, Sacrifice an artifact: Target player puts the top three cards of
his or her library into his or her graveyard.
/ Whenever an artifact comes into play, you may untap Grinding Station.

During the resolution of Roar of Reclamation, artifacts come into play.
This triggers the triggered ability of Grinding Station once for each
such artifact. At this point, all that means is that we make a note of
the trigger happening.

Roar of Reclamation finishes resolving, putting itself in the graveyard.
Then, active player tries to get priority and in doing so, we have to
put all the triggered abilities on the stack. So at this point, we
choose an order for the Grinding Station abilities, and put them all
on the stack. The result here is that Roar of Reclamation is finished,
and on the stack will be (among any other triggered abilities that
triggered) a whole bunch of 'you may untap Grinding Station' waiting
to resolve. It's at this point that you can play the Grinding Station
ability to 'mill' the opponent's library. After that resolves, let
one of the triggered 'untap' abilities resolve, and then play the
Grinding Station ability again. There will probably be more instances
of the 'untap' ability on the stack than you have artifacts in play,
as it triggers for anybody's artifacts coming into play.

So, long story short, the triggers from Roar of Reclamation putting
stuff into play don't do anything until after the Roar is finished,
and that means you won't be adding to the set of things that it will
put into play. Conversely, if you have any way of putting more
artifacts into your graveyard in response to the Roar of Reclamation
being played, that might be a fine idea.

--
-- zoe

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Phil <phil@giltharn.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>Yes. It will trigger a total of 23 times all at once, here, during the Roar's
>>resolution. Then the Roar goes to the T&N deck's graveyard. Then all the
>>Grinding Station triggered abilities go on the stack; the GS deck's player
>>chooses their order. (Since it's probably the T&N deck's player's turn, any
>>triggered abilities of _that_ player's stuff also go on the stack at that
>>time, but _under_ all the GS abilities.)

>one more thing..... you seen to imply that whilst the tooth and nail
>deck played the roar of reclamation it is my deck that is getting
>first choice with the artifacts that are returning, which I kinda
>understand because I am untapping, tapping and sacrificing as they are
>comming into play.

Well: no. Roar of Reclamation brings them all back at the same time, and
gives neither player any choices about what is coming back. (And you're not
doing anything much "as" they are coming into play, unless there's a Sculpting
Steel involved, or something that comes into play with counters.) The above
referred to _triggered abilities_ that triggered as everything came into play:
any that active player control all go on the stack first, and any that
opponent control go on the stack on top of all of active player's.

>But does that actually mean I was making the
>situation worse by putting more cards into his graveyard before the
>resolution of the roar of restoration ?

Quite possibly, because it means there are (probably) more artifact cards in
his graveyard for the Roar of Reclamation to return to play. (But on the
other hand THAT means that your Grinding Station triggers more times... and
IF you can deck him on your turn, he'll lose on his draw step before he gets
to attack you at all.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.