Oblivion Stone/Naturalize

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2 cards involved:

Naturalize
{1}{G}
Instant
Destroy target artifact or enchantment.

Oblivion Stone
{3}
Artifact
{4}, {T}: Put a fate counter on target permanent.
{5}, {T}, Sacrifice Oblivion Stone: Destroy each nonland permanent
without a fate counter on it, then remove all fate counters.

You probably know what I'm going to ask. My opponent has 8 mana at his
disposal, uses 3 mana to put out an oblivion stone and 5 mana to pop
it. At what point, if any, can I cast Naturalize to destroy the
oblivion stone and prevent it from destroying everything?

Thanks.

-One who is still learning the stack

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

SulfuricMox wrote:

> 2 cards involved:
>
> Naturalize
> {1}{G}
> Instant
> Destroy target artifact or enchantment.
>
> Oblivion Stone
> {3}
> Artifact
> {4}, {T}: Put a fate counter on target permanent.
> {5}, {T}, Sacrifice Oblivion Stone: Destroy each nonland permanent
> without a fate counter on it, then remove all fate counters.
>
> You probably know what I'm going to ask. My opponent has 8 mana at his
> disposal, uses 3 mana to put out an oblivion stone and 5 mana to pop
> it. At what point, if any, can I cast Naturalize to destroy the
> oblivion stone and prevent it from destroying everything?

You can't. You can't Naturalize the Oblivion Stone until it enters
play, but after it enters play, your opponent has priority; he
gets to play first. When he plays the Stone's ability, it leaves
play immediately; he has to sacrifice it as cost to play the ability.
So by the time you get priority to play your Naturalize, there's
no Stone to Naturalize. You absolutely can't win this. Even if
he decides *not* to blow his Stone right then, he can reply to your
Naturalize by activating the Stone. He will sacrifice it to the
ability and it goes away immediately (it's a cost), and when your
Naturalize resolves, its destruction of the Stone (which is an effect)
is countered on resolution because its target is gone.
>
> Thanks.
>
> -One who is still learning the stack

Remember three things-One: costs do *not* go on the stack but are
paid when the spell/ability is declared. Two: effects have to
wait their turn on the stack to resolve. Three--which is not
relevant here, but is important in cases where you're not sacrificing
the ability's source--destroying the source of an ability does nothing
to stop the ability. For example, say that instead of a Stone, it
was a Rod of Ruin (Cost 4, 3,T: Rod of Ruin deals 1 damage to target
creature or player). He brings it into play and passes priority to
you instead of using it right away. You play Naturalize on the Rod.
He responds by activating the Rod to do a point of damage to you.
*You will take the damage, even though the Naturalize will
destroy the Rod before its ability resolves*.

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Chris Mattern wrote:

> to stop the ability. For example, say that instead of a Stone, it
> was a Rod of Ruin (Cost 4, 3,T: Rod of Ruin deals 1 damage to target
> creature or player). He brings it into play and passes priority to
> you instead of using it right away. You play Naturalize on the Rod.
> He responds by activating the Rod to do a point of damage to you.
> *You will take the damage, even though the Naturalize will
> destroy the Rod before its ability resolves*.
>

Jesus, what is wrong with me? Change the above example so that he
uses the Rod immediately and you Naturalize in response. *Now*
the Naturalize kills the Rod before the Rod's ability resolves
(but you still take a point of damage).
--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 25 Jun 2004 15:10:00 -0700, SulfuricMox <sulfuricmox@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Naturalize 1G Instant
> Destroy target artifact or enchantment.
>
>Oblivion Stone 3 Artifact
> 4,Tap: Put a fate counter on target permanent. / 5,Tap,Sacrifice ~: Destroy
> each nonland permanent without a fate counter on it, then remove all fate
> counters.
>
>You probably know what I'm going to ask. My opponent has 8 mana at his
>disposal, uses 3 mana to put out an oblivion stone and 5 mana to pop
>it. At what point, if any, can I cast Naturalize to destroy the
>oblivion stone and prevent it from destroying everything?

At no point. If this is on opponent's turn, you don't even get a chance to
cast it; if this is on your turn, through judicious use of Vedalken Orrery,
you can cast (announce) Naturalize before he can play (announce) the Stone's
ability, but he can just respond to your Naturalize by using the Stone.

You can't target a spell on the stack with Naturalize. So you have to wait
until the Stone is in play. After an artifact spell resolves, active player
gets priority - on his turn, that's him. The player with priority gets to
take the next action; thus he can play the Stone's ability, which involves
sacrificing it as part of the cost, without ever giving you priority (and
thus without you getting a chance to cast a spell or play an ability of your
own) first, if it's his turn. And then the Stone is gone, and its ability is
on the stack... and Naturalize can't target an ability on the stack either.

Only thing that changes if this is your turn is that you get priority first...
so you can _announce_ the Naturalize. But as noted above he can just respond
by using the Stone, so this is still fairly useless.

Naturalize (Disenchant, Icy Manipulator, etc.) is NOT A COUNTERSPELL; it can't
do anything to stop an ability from being used in response, and it can't do
anything about an ability already on the stack.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

SulfuricMox, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> 2 cards involved:
>
> Naturalize
> {1}{G}
> Instant
> Destroy target artifact or enchantment.
>
> Oblivion Stone
> {3}
> Artifact
> {4}, {T}: Put a fate counter on target permanent.
> {5}, {T}, Sacrifice Oblivion Stone: Destroy each nonland permanent
> without a fate counter on it, then remove all fate counters.
>
> You probably know what I'm going to ask. My opponent has 8 mana at his
> disposal, uses 3 mana to put out an oblivion stone and 5 mana to pop
> it. At what point, if any, can I cast Naturalize to destroy the
> oblivion stone and prevent it from destroying everything?

Never.

He plays it, presumably on his turn (I'm assuming nothing weird like
Vedalken Orrery is around); sometime later it resolves. Up to this
point, you could counter it, but it wouldn't be a legal target for
Naturalize.

Now, your opponent STILL HAS PRIORITY. If the very next thing he does
is pop the Stone, then it's gone by the time you can respond. Even if
it's not, and you play Naturalize before he plays the Stone's ability,
he can just play the Stone's ability in response, and it will still be
gone before Naturalize can do anything.