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Double Strike and Protection from Artifacts

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Anonymous
July 5, 2004 8:04:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hi,

A question:

Player A attacks with a Clockwork Vorrac equipped with a Fireshrieker. The
Vorrac is 5/5 in this example.
Player B assigns a Tel-Jilad Chosen to block the Golem.

Clockwork Vorrac 5
Artifact Creature - Beast
Trample
Clockwork Vorrac comes into play with four +1/+1 counters
on it. Whenever Clockwork Vorrac attacks or blocks, remove
a +1/+1 counter from it at end of combat.
T: Put a +1/+1 counter on Clockwork Vorrac.
0/0

Fireshrieker 3
Artifact - Equipment
Equipped creature has double strike. (It deals both
first-strike and regular combat damage.)
Equip 2

Tel-Jilad Chosen 1G
Creature - Elf Warrior
Protection from Artifacts
2/1

Damage dealing step:

First strike damage on the stack. Player A assigns 1 damage on the Chosen, 4
Trample damage. The Chosen survives as all damage is reduced to nil, acc. to
the protection rules.
Regular damage goes on the stack. Player A assigns 5 Trample damage as the
blocking creature already received lethal damage.

And there is my question: somebody said that Player A should assign lethal
damage to the Chosen during the regular damage assignment as well, as it
still is in play and blocking.

Thnx in advance for the wisdom!

Onno
Anonymous
July 5, 2004 10:16:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"Onno Peerlings" <o.peerlings@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:p _eGc.37226$HY4.4958@amsnews03.chello.com...
> Hi,
>
> A question:
>
> Player A attacks with a Clockwork Vorrac equipped with a Fireshrieker. The
> Vorrac is 5/5 in this example.
> Player B assigns a Tel-Jilad Chosen to block the Golem.
>
> Clockwork Vorrac 5
> Artifact Creature - Beast
> Trample
> Clockwork Vorrac comes into play with four +1/+1 counters
> on it. Whenever Clockwork Vorrac attacks or blocks, remove
> a +1/+1 counter from it at end of combat.
> T: Put a +1/+1 counter on Clockwork Vorrac.
> 0/0
>
> Fireshrieker 3
> Artifact - Equipment
> Equipped creature has double strike. (It deals both
> first-strike and regular combat damage.)
> Equip 2
>
> Tel-Jilad Chosen 1G
> Creature - Elf Warrior
> Protection from Artifacts
> 2/1
>
> Damage dealing step:
>
> First strike damage on the stack. Player A assigns 1 damage on the Chosen,
4
> Trample damage. The Chosen survives as all damage is reduced to nil, acc.
to
> the protection rules.
> Regular damage goes on the stack. Player A assigns 5 Trample damage as the
> blocking creature already received lethal damage.
>
No, it didn't. The damage from the first stike combat damage was prevented,
and the Chosen is still a 2/1 creature with 0 damage. The trample damage
assignement rules still require you to do 1 damage to the chosen.

> And there is my question: somebody said that Player A should assign lethal
> damage to the Chosen during the regular damage assignment as well, as it
> still is in play and blocking.
>
This is true


Jasper Overman
Anonymous
July 5, 2004 11:01:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Onno Peerlings wrote:

>Hi,
>
>A question:
>
>Player A attacks with a Clockwork Vorrac equipped with a Fireshrieker. The
>Vorrac is 5/5 in this example.
>Player B assigns a Tel-Jilad Chosen to block the Golem.
>
>Clockwork Vorrac 5
>Artifact Creature - Beast
>Trample
>Clockwork Vorrac comes into play with four +1/+1 counters
>on it. Whenever Clockwork Vorrac attacks or blocks, remove
> a +1/+1 counter from it at end of combat.
>T: Put a +1/+1 counter on Clockwork Vorrac.
>0/0
>
>Fireshrieker 3
>Artifact - Equipment
>Equipped creature has double strike. (It deals both
> first-strike and regular combat damage.)
>Equip 2
>
>Tel-Jilad Chosen 1G
>Creature - Elf Warrior
>Protection from Artifacts
>2/1
>
>Damage dealing step:
>
>First strike damage on the stack. Player A assigns 1 damage on the Chosen, 4
>Trample damage. The Chosen survives as all damage is reduced to nil, acc. to
>the protection rules.
>Regular damage goes on the stack. Player A assigns 5 Trample damage as the
>blocking creature already received lethal damage.
>
>And there is my question: somebody said that Player A should assign lethal
>damage to the Chosen during the regular damage assignment as well, as it
>still is in play and blocking.
>
>Thnx in advance for the wisdom!
>
>Onno
>
>
The damage on the first strike phase was prevented by the protection, so
the creature
is still there to block your creature with fresh life on the regular
combat phase.

Carl
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Anonymous
July 5, 2004 11:21:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Onno Peerlings, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> Hi,
>
> A question:
>
> Player A attacks with a Clockwork Vorrac equipped with a Fireshrieker. The
> Vorrac is 5/5 in this example.
> Player B assigns a Tel-Jilad Chosen to block the Golem.
>
> Clockwork Vorrac 5
> Artifact Creature - Beast
> Trample
> Clockwork Vorrac comes into play with four +1/+1 counters
> on it. Whenever Clockwork Vorrac attacks or blocks, remove
> a +1/+1 counter from it at end of combat.
> T: Put a +1/+1 counter on Clockwork Vorrac.
> 0/0
>
> Fireshrieker 3
> Artifact - Equipment
> Equipped creature has double strike. (It deals both
> first-strike and regular combat damage.)
> Equip 2
>
> Tel-Jilad Chosen 1G
> Creature - Elf Warrior
> Protection from Artifacts
> 2/1
>
> Damage dealing step:
>
> First strike damage on the stack. Player A assigns 1 damage on the Chosen, 4
> Trample damage. The Chosen survives as all damage is reduced to nil, acc. to
> the protection rules.
> Regular damage goes on the stack. Player A assigns 5 Trample damage as the
> blocking creature already received lethal damage.
>
> And there is my question: somebody said that Player A should assign lethal
> damage to the Chosen during the regular damage assignment as well, as it
> still is in play and blocking.

That's not *why* Player A has to assign another damage to the Chosen,
but he does have to do so.

Lethal damage means the assigned damage, plus any damage already on the
creature, has to at least equal its toughness. The key here is that,
due to the TJC's Protection from Artifacts, the one damage from the
Vorrac that was already assigned to the Chosen was prevented and is no
longer there by the time the second combat damage step arrives. So the
game sees a one toughness creature with no damage, and doesn't allow you
to trample any damage through until you assign one damage to the
blocker.

It would be different if the damage was still on the blocker, just not
able to destroy it. Since Darksteel came out this is possible
(indestructible creatures), but it's not the case here.
Anonymous
July 8, 2004 1:09:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

More pulled-from-Google-to-answer stuff:

:p layer A attacks with a Clockwork Vorrac equipped with a Fireshrieker. The
:Vorrac is 5/5 in this example.
:p layer B assigns a Tel-Jilad Chosen to block the Golem.

:Clockwork Vorrac 5 Artifact Creature - Beast
:0/0 Trample ~ comes into play with four +1/+1 counters on it. / Whenever ~
: attacks or blocks, remove a +1/+1 counter from it at end of combat. / Tap:
: Put a +1/+1 counter on ~.
:Fireshrieker 3 Artifact - Equipment
: Equipped creature has double strike. (*) / Equip 2
:Tel-Jilad Chosen 1G Creature - Elf Warrior
:2/1 Protection from Artifacts

Okay. The Vorrac doesn't lose its counter until some time during end-of-combat
step, so it's 5/5 both times it assigns combat damage; it has to assign at
least 1 to the Chosen each time. Defending player gets assigned up to 4 damage
each time, at the attacking player's discretion, so probably ends up getting
4 to the head, twice, for a total of 8. The 1 damage assigned to the Chosen
each time gets prevented, leaving an undamaged Chosen and a tapped 4/4
equipped Vorrac after Combat phase is over.

:First strike damage on the stack. Player A assigns 1 damage on the Chosen, 4
:Trample damage. The Chosen survives as all damage is reduced to nil, acc. to
:the protection rules.

Prevented, actually.

:Regular damage goes on the stack. Player A assigns 5 Trample damage as the
:blocking creature already received lethal damage.

Nope. It "recevied" _no_ damage at all; the damage was -prevented-. There are
no points of damage sitting on the Chosen; the Vorrac has to assign 1 damage
to it again.

:And there is my question: somebody said that Player A should assign lethal
:D amage to the Chosen during the regular damage assignment as well, as it
:still is in play and blocking.

....and is _still undamaged_. That's the key here; its toughness is 1, and
there's no damage on it, so "lethal damage" for it is (still) 1.

If it were _indestructible_, rather than having ProArtifacts, then it _would_
have been dealt 1 damage (or more), and the damage would be sitting on it
but failing utterly to kill it. In -that- case it would already have lethal
damage on it and you could assign all 5 from the Vorrac straight to defender.
See the difference here?

Dave
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