Double Strike and Protection from Artifacts

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hi,

A question:

Player A attacks with a Clockwork Vorrac equipped with a Fireshrieker. The
Vorrac is 5/5 in this example.
Player B assigns a Tel-Jilad Chosen to block the Golem.

Clockwork Vorrac 5
Artifact Creature - Beast
Trample
Clockwork Vorrac comes into play with four +1/+1 counters
on it. Whenever Clockwork Vorrac attacks or blocks, remove
a +1/+1 counter from it at end of combat.
T: Put a +1/+1 counter on Clockwork Vorrac.
0/0

Fireshrieker 3
Artifact - Equipment
Equipped creature has double strike. (It deals both
first-strike and regular combat damage.)
Equip 2

Tel-Jilad Chosen 1G
Creature - Elf Warrior
Protection from Artifacts
2/1

Damage dealing step:

First strike damage on the stack. Player A assigns 1 damage on the Chosen, 4
Trample damage. The Chosen survives as all damage is reduced to nil, acc. to
the protection rules.
Regular damage goes on the stack. Player A assigns 5 Trample damage as the
blocking creature already received lethal damage.

And there is my question: somebody said that Player A should assign lethal
damage to the Chosen during the regular damage assignment as well, as it
still is in play and blocking.

Thnx in advance for the wisdom!

Onno
4 answers Last reply
More about double strike protection artifacts
  1. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

    "Onno Peerlings" <o.peerlings@chello.nl> wrote in message
    news:p_eGc.37226$HY4.4958@amsnews03.chello.com...
    > Hi,
    >
    > A question:
    >
    > Player A attacks with a Clockwork Vorrac equipped with a Fireshrieker. The
    > Vorrac is 5/5 in this example.
    > Player B assigns a Tel-Jilad Chosen to block the Golem.
    >
    > Clockwork Vorrac 5
    > Artifact Creature - Beast
    > Trample
    > Clockwork Vorrac comes into play with four +1/+1 counters
    > on it. Whenever Clockwork Vorrac attacks or blocks, remove
    > a +1/+1 counter from it at end of combat.
    > T: Put a +1/+1 counter on Clockwork Vorrac.
    > 0/0
    >
    > Fireshrieker 3
    > Artifact - Equipment
    > Equipped creature has double strike. (It deals both
    > first-strike and regular combat damage.)
    > Equip 2
    >
    > Tel-Jilad Chosen 1G
    > Creature - Elf Warrior
    > Protection from Artifacts
    > 2/1
    >
    > Damage dealing step:
    >
    > First strike damage on the stack. Player A assigns 1 damage on the Chosen,
    4
    > Trample damage. The Chosen survives as all damage is reduced to nil, acc.
    to
    > the protection rules.
    > Regular damage goes on the stack. Player A assigns 5 Trample damage as the
    > blocking creature already received lethal damage.
    >
    No, it didn't. The damage from the first stike combat damage was prevented,
    and the Chosen is still a 2/1 creature with 0 damage. The trample damage
    assignement rules still require you to do 1 damage to the chosen.

    > And there is my question: somebody said that Player A should assign lethal
    > damage to the Chosen during the regular damage assignment as well, as it
    > still is in play and blocking.
    >
    This is true


    Jasper Overman
  2. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

    Onno Peerlings wrote:

    >Hi,
    >
    >A question:
    >
    >Player A attacks with a Clockwork Vorrac equipped with a Fireshrieker. The
    >Vorrac is 5/5 in this example.
    >Player B assigns a Tel-Jilad Chosen to block the Golem.
    >
    >Clockwork Vorrac 5
    >Artifact Creature - Beast
    >Trample
    >Clockwork Vorrac comes into play with four +1/+1 counters
    >on it. Whenever Clockwork Vorrac attacks or blocks, remove
    > a +1/+1 counter from it at end of combat.
    >T: Put a +1/+1 counter on Clockwork Vorrac.
    >0/0
    >
    >Fireshrieker 3
    >Artifact - Equipment
    >Equipped creature has double strike. (It deals both
    > first-strike and regular combat damage.)
    >Equip 2
    >
    >Tel-Jilad Chosen 1G
    >Creature - Elf Warrior
    >Protection from Artifacts
    >2/1
    >
    >Damage dealing step:
    >
    >First strike damage on the stack. Player A assigns 1 damage on the Chosen, 4
    >Trample damage. The Chosen survives as all damage is reduced to nil, acc. to
    >the protection rules.
    >Regular damage goes on the stack. Player A assigns 5 Trample damage as the
    >blocking creature already received lethal damage.
    >
    >And there is my question: somebody said that Player A should assign lethal
    >damage to the Chosen during the regular damage assignment as well, as it
    >still is in play and blocking.
    >
    >Thnx in advance for the wisdom!
    >
    >Onno
    >
    >
    The damage on the first strike phase was prevented by the protection, so
    the creature
    is still there to block your creature with fresh life on the regular
    combat phase.

    Carl
  3. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

    Onno Peerlings, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
    > Hi,
    >
    > A question:
    >
    > Player A attacks with a Clockwork Vorrac equipped with a Fireshrieker. The
    > Vorrac is 5/5 in this example.
    > Player B assigns a Tel-Jilad Chosen to block the Golem.
    >
    > Clockwork Vorrac 5
    > Artifact Creature - Beast
    > Trample
    > Clockwork Vorrac comes into play with four +1/+1 counters
    > on it. Whenever Clockwork Vorrac attacks or blocks, remove
    > a +1/+1 counter from it at end of combat.
    > T: Put a +1/+1 counter on Clockwork Vorrac.
    > 0/0
    >
    > Fireshrieker 3
    > Artifact - Equipment
    > Equipped creature has double strike. (It deals both
    > first-strike and regular combat damage.)
    > Equip 2
    >
    > Tel-Jilad Chosen 1G
    > Creature - Elf Warrior
    > Protection from Artifacts
    > 2/1
    >
    > Damage dealing step:
    >
    > First strike damage on the stack. Player A assigns 1 damage on the Chosen, 4
    > Trample damage. The Chosen survives as all damage is reduced to nil, acc. to
    > the protection rules.
    > Regular damage goes on the stack. Player A assigns 5 Trample damage as the
    > blocking creature already received lethal damage.
    >
    > And there is my question: somebody said that Player A should assign lethal
    > damage to the Chosen during the regular damage assignment as well, as it
    > still is in play and blocking.

    That's not *why* Player A has to assign another damage to the Chosen,
    but he does have to do so.

    Lethal damage means the assigned damage, plus any damage already on the
    creature, has to at least equal its toughness. The key here is that,
    due to the TJC's Protection from Artifacts, the one damage from the
    Vorrac that was already assigned to the Chosen was prevented and is no
    longer there by the time the second combat damage step arrives. So the
    game sees a one toughness creature with no damage, and doesn't allow you
    to trample any damage through until you assign one damage to the
    blocker.

    It would be different if the damage was still on the blocker, just not
    able to destroy it. Since Darksteel came out this is possible
    (indestructible creatures), but it's not the case here.
  4. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

    More pulled-from-Google-to-answer stuff:

    :Player A attacks with a Clockwork Vorrac equipped with a Fireshrieker. The
    :Vorrac is 5/5 in this example.
    :Player B assigns a Tel-Jilad Chosen to block the Golem.

    :Clockwork Vorrac 5 Artifact Creature - Beast
    :0/0 Trample ~ comes into play with four +1/+1 counters on it. / Whenever ~
    : attacks or blocks, remove a +1/+1 counter from it at end of combat. / Tap:
    : Put a +1/+1 counter on ~.
    :Fireshrieker 3 Artifact - Equipment
    : Equipped creature has double strike. (*) / Equip 2
    :Tel-Jilad Chosen 1G Creature - Elf Warrior
    :2/1 Protection from Artifacts

    Okay. The Vorrac doesn't lose its counter until some time during end-of-combat
    step, so it's 5/5 both times it assigns combat damage; it has to assign at
    least 1 to the Chosen each time. Defending player gets assigned up to 4 damage
    each time, at the attacking player's discretion, so probably ends up getting
    4 to the head, twice, for a total of 8. The 1 damage assigned to the Chosen
    each time gets prevented, leaving an undamaged Chosen and a tapped 4/4
    equipped Vorrac after Combat phase is over.

    :First strike damage on the stack. Player A assigns 1 damage on the Chosen, 4
    :Trample damage. The Chosen survives as all damage is reduced to nil, acc. to
    :the protection rules.

    Prevented, actually.

    :Regular damage goes on the stack. Player A assigns 5 Trample damage as the
    :blocking creature already received lethal damage.

    Nope. It "recevied" _no_ damage at all; the damage was -prevented-. There are
    no points of damage sitting on the Chosen; the Vorrac has to assign 1 damage
    to it again.

    :And there is my question: somebody said that Player A should assign lethal
    :damage to the Chosen during the regular damage assignment as well, as it
    :still is in play and blocking.

    ....and is _still undamaged_. That's the key here; its toughness is 1, and
    there's no damage on it, so "lethal damage" for it is (still) 1.

    If it were _indestructible_, rather than having ProArtifacts, then it _would_
    have been dealt 1 damage (or more), and the damage would be sitting on it
    but failing utterly to kill it. In -that- case it would already have lethal
    damage on it and you could assign all 5 from the Vorrac straight to defender.
    See the difference here?

    Dave
    --
    \/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
    It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
    Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
    http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
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