Sacrifice Creature and Lose Control

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Myr Retriever
{2}
Artifact Creature -- Myr
1/1
When Myr Retriever is put into a graveyard from play, return another
target artifact card from your graveyard to your hand.

Krark-Clan Ironworks
{4}
Artifact
Sacrifice an artifact: Add {2} to your mana pool.

Vedalken Shackles
{3}
Artifact
You may choose not to untap Vedalken Shackles during your untap step.
{2}, {T}: Gain control of target creature with power less than or
equal to the number of Islands you control as long as Vedalken
Shackles remains tapped.

I play a Myr Retriever. I then delcare I'm going to sac it to my
Krark-Clan Ironworks. In response he takes control of it with his
Vedalken Shackles. Does the Myr Retriever still get sacrificed? The
sac ability is on the stack so wouldn't he gain control of it, then
the sac resolves sending the Myr Retriever to _my_ graveyard?

From the comp. rules:

"Sacrifice
To sacrifice a permanent, its controller moves it from the in-play
zone directly to its owner's graveyard. A player can't sacrifice
something that isn't a permanent, or something that's a permanent he
or she doesn't control. If an effect instructs a player to sacrifice a
permanent that he or she doesn't control, nothing happens. Sacrificing
a permanent doesn't destroy it, so regeneration or other effects that
replace destruction can't affect it."

Thanks,

Phil

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Lophophora <nope@nope.com> wrote:

> I play a Myr Retriever. I then delcare I'm going to sac it to my
> Krark-Clan Ironworks. In response

In response to what?

406.1. A mana ability is either (a) an activated ability that could put
mana into a player's mana pool when it resolves or (b) a triggered
ability that triggers from a mana ability and could produce additional
mana. A mana ability can generate other effects at the same time it
produces mana.

406.4. A mana ability can be activated or triggered. Mana abilities are
played and resolved like other abilities, but they don't go on the
stack, so they can't be countered or responded to. See rule 411,
"Playing Mana Abilities," and rule 408.2, "Actions That Don't Use the
Stack."

> he takes control of it with his
> Vedalken Shackles.

Takes control of what? Even if the acivated ability of Krark-Clan
Ironworks weren't a mana ability, the Myr Retriever would already be in
the graveyard.

Here is as much of the sequence as I can reconstruct:

1) You play a Myr Retriever spell, putting it on the stack and paying
the {2} mana cost.
2) You get priority and pass.
3) Your opponent gets priority and passes.
4) The top item on the stack (the Myr Retriever spell) resolves and the
Myr Retriever enters play.
5) You get priority and play the ability of Krark-Clan Ironworks, paying
the cost by sacrificing your Myr Retriever. Since this is a mana
ability, it resolves immediately, putting {2} in your mana pool. The
sacrifice triggers the leaves-play ability of Myr Retriever.
6) You would get priority, but there is a triggered ability for you to
put on the stack. You choose another target artifact card in your
graveyard.
7) You get priority and pass.
8) Your opponent gets priority and ....
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 15:25:49 -0500, Lophophora <nope@nope.com> wrote:

Taking the Subject: header as a prompt, you lose control of something when
it leaves play, or if it stays in play but changes controllers. Only objects
on the stack and in play have controllers; anywhere else all they have is
an owner.

>Myr Retriever 2 Artifact Creature -- Myr
>1/1 When ~ is put into a graveyard from play, return another target artifact
> card from your graveyard to your hand.
>Krark-Clan Ironworks 4 Artifact
> Sacrifice an artifact: Add 2 to your mana pool.
>Vedalken Shackles 3 Artifact
> You may choose not to untap ~ during your untap step. / 2,Tap: Gain control
> of target creature with power less than or equal to the number of Islands you
> control as long as ~ remains tapped.

If you sacrifice the Shackles, they stop being tapped (or untapped; both apply
only to permanents, that is, to objects in play), and their effect ends. If
you sacrifice the creature involved, you lose control of it. The Shackles
effect never counts your number of Islands, or compares it to the creature's
power, AFTER it's done resolving - that's strictly a targetting condition.

>I play a Myr Retriever. I then delcare I'm going to sac it to my
>Krark-Clan Ironworks. In response he takes control of it with his
>Vedalken Shackles.

Takes control of _what_, exactly?

> Does the Myr Retriever still get sacrificed?

The Myr Retriever _already got_ sacrificed. You did that as part of announcing
the Ironworks' activated mana ability: the 'pay the cost' part, 409.1h . And
since this is a mana ability, it didn't use the stack, and you got 2, without
anyone getting priority in between. If you had priority before, you get it back
now. (If _nobody_ had priority before - you're doing this at a time you're
being asked to pay mana - nobody has it afterwards either. It's not possible
for you to use this ability when some OTHER player has priority.)

Opponent does not have priority, and cannot announce the Shackles' ability,
period. He doesn't get to respond to mana abilities; he doesn't get to "jump
in in the middle of your announcement" in any way; he doesn't get to interfere
with your payment of costs, or in fact to do ANYTHING, if you have priority.
He can only take actions when HE has priority, or when an instruction or
rule tells him to.

He can certainly use the

> The sac ability is on the stack

No, it isn't; a) there IS no 'sac ability', there is just the Ironworks'
ability. b), the Ironworks' ability doesn't USE the stack. And even if it
did, _announcing_ it is not something that goes separately on the stack;
announcing it involves following the steps 409.1a-1i, and is not something
that can be responded to. (You can respond to an ability that uses the stack,
once it is DONE being announced.)

>so wouldn't he gain control of it, then
>the sac resolves sending the Myr Retriever to _my_ graveyard?

Since the sacrifice is a COST PAYMENT, and does not use the stack in ANY way
at all, there is no way to 'resolve the sacrifice'. It is done as part of
announcing the Ironworks' ability; then, since that's a mana ability, _it_
resolves and has its effect happen - you add 2 to your mana pool - without
anyone getting priority, so nobody can respond _before_ you have the mana.
And you get priority afterwards, assuming you had it before, so opponent
STILL can't do anything yet; you have to PASS - pass priority, rather than
taking an action - before opponent can get priority at all.

>From the comp. rules:
>
>"Sacrifice
>To sacrifice a permanent, its controller moves it from the in-play
>zone directly to its owner's graveyard. A player can't sacrifice
>something that isn't a permanent, or something that's a permanent he
>or she doesn't control. If an effect instructs a player to sacrifice a
>permanent that he or she doesn't control, nothing happens. Sacrificing
>a permanent doesn't destroy it, so regeneration or other effects that
>replace destruction can't affect it."

Note that this says NOTHING about this being an 'effect' of any sort, or
itself using the stack; it mentions effects that -tell- players to sacrifice
a permanent, but in no way says anything about sacrifices "using the stack".

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Lophophora wrote:

> Myr Retriever
> {2}
> Artifact Creature -- Myr
> 1/1
> When Myr Retriever is put into a graveyard from play, return another
> target artifact card from your graveyard to your hand.
>
> Krark-Clan Ironworks
> {4}
> Artifact
> Sacrifice an artifact: Add {2} to your mana pool.
>
> Vedalken Shackles
> {3}
> Artifact
> You may choose not to untap Vedalken Shackles during your untap step.
> {2}, {T}: Gain control of target creature with power less than or
> equal to the number of Islands you control as long as Vedalken
> Shackles remains tapped.
>
> I play a Myr Retriever. I then delcare I'm going to sac it to my
> Krark-Clan Ironworks.

OK. It's gone. Sacrificing an artifact to the Ironworks is a *cost*--
it comes before the colon in the activated ability text. It happens
immediately on declaration that the ability is being activated. Only
the part *after* the colon waits its turn on the stack.

> In response he takes control of it with his
> Vedalken Shackles.

Takes control of what? Not the Retriever--there *is* no Retriever to take
control of.

> Does the Myr Retriever still get sacrificed? The
> sac ability is on the stack so wouldn't he gain control of it, then
> the sac resolves sending the Myr Retriever to _my_ graveyard?

The sac is not an ability, it is a cost. It does not wait on the
stack, it happens immediately. He cannot use the Shackles on the
Retriever because the Retriever is no longer there.
>
> From the comp. rules:
>
> "Sacrifice
> To sacrifice a permanent, its controller moves it from the in-play
> zone directly to its owner's graveyard. A player can't sacrifice
> something that isn't a permanent, or something that's a permanent he
> or she doesn't control. If an effect instructs a player to sacrifice a
> permanent that he or she doesn't control, nothing happens. Sacrificing
> a permanent doesn't destroy it, so regeneration or other effects that
> replace destruction can't affect it."
>
> Thanks,
>
> Phil

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Lophophora wrote:
> Myr Retriever
> {2}
> Artifact Creature -- Myr
> 1/1
> When Myr Retriever is put into a graveyard from play, return another
> target artifact card from your graveyard to your hand.
>
> Krark-Clan Ironworks
> {4}
> Artifact
> Sacrifice an artifact: Add {2} to your mana pool.
>
> Vedalken Shackles
> {3}
> Artifact
> You may choose not to untap Vedalken Shackles during your untap step.
> {2}, {T}: Gain control of target creature with power less than or
> equal to the number of Islands you control as long as Vedalken
> Shackles remains tapped.
>
> I play a Myr Retriever. I then delcare I'm going to sac it to my
> Krark-Clan Ironworks. In response he takes control of it with his
> Vedalken Shackles.

He can not do this. "Sac an articfact:" is a COST. You do it, to pay for
something. With KrakClan IronWorks, since it is a mana ability it does
not use the stack any way.

So he can not respond to this, and even if he could you have already
sacrificed the myr retrivier to pay for some effect (adding tokens to
ravager, using grinding stations ability, etc).

> Does the Myr Retriever still get sacrificed? The
> sac ability is on the stack so wouldn't he gain control of it, then
> the sac resolves sending the Myr Retriever to _my_ graveyard?
>
> From the comp. rules:
>
> "Sacrifice
> To sacrifice a permanent, its controller moves it from the in-play
> zone directly to its owner's graveyard. A player can't sacrifice
> something that isn't a permanent, or something that's a permanent he
> or she doesn't control. If an effect instructs a player to sacrifice a
> permanent that he or she doesn't control, nothing happens. Sacrificing
> a permanent doesn't destroy it, so regeneration or other effects that
> replace destruction can't affect it."
>
> Thanks,
>
> Phil

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 15:25:49 -0500, Lophophora <nope@nope.com> wrote:

>Myr Retriever
>{2}
>Artifact Creature -- Myr
>1/1
>When Myr Retriever is put into a graveyard from play, return another
>target artifact card from your graveyard to your hand.
>
>Krark-Clan Ironworks
>{4}
>Artifact
>Sacrifice an artifact: Add {2} to your mana pool.
>
>Vedalken Shackles
>{3}
>Artifact
>You may choose not to untap Vedalken Shackles during your untap step.
>{2}, {T}: Gain control of target creature with power less than or
>equal to the number of Islands you control as long as Vedalken
>Shackles remains tapped.
>
>I play a Myr Retriever. I then delcare I'm going to sac it

it = Myr Retriever

> to my
>Krark-Clan Ironworks. In response he takes control of it with his
>Vedalken Shackles. Does the Myr Retriever still get sacrificed? The
>sac ability is on the stack so wouldn't he gain control of it, then
>the sac resolves sending the Myr Retriever to _my_ graveyard?
>
>From the comp. rules:
>
>"Sacrifice
>To sacrifice a permanent, its controller moves it from the in-play
>zone directly to its owner's graveyard. A player can't sacrifice
>something that isn't a permanent, or something that's a permanent he
>or she doesn't control. If an effect instructs a player to sacrifice a
>permanent that he or she doesn't control, nothing happens. Sacrificing
>a permanent doesn't destroy it, so regeneration or other effects that
>replace destruction can't affect it."
>
>Thanks,
>
>Phil

Thanks for the lesson guys.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Reading this made me think of another question about Vedalken Shackles.
What happens if VS leaves play before the ability resolves. Does the
creature pop back and forth, never change hands, or pop over and stay. I
am not sure whether the fact that VS was tapped when it left play is
significant or not.

Lophophora wrote:

> Vedalken Shackles
> {3}
> Artifact
> You may choose not to untap Vedalken Shackles during your untap step.
> {2}, {T}: Gain control of target creature with power less than or
> equal to the number of Islands you control as long as Vedalken
> Shackles remains tapped.

 

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On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 02:37:37 -0500, Yuliy Pisetsky <mentalchaos@cox.net> wrote:
>Reading this made me think of another question about Vedalken Shackles.
>What happens if VS leaves play before the ability resolves.

Then it is not "tapped" as the ability resolves (things have to be in play,
to be either "tapped" or "untapped"). so the effect never starts.

>Does the
>creature pop back and forth, never change hands, or pop over and stay. I
>am not sure whether the fact that VS was tapped when it left play is
>significant or not.

It never changes hands at all. 418.3d covers this; the Shackles having been
taped when they left play doesn't matter, because the duration of this "tap
and hold" ability's effect was over before the effect could begin.

Similarly, if something _untaps_ the Shackles in response to its ability, the
effect from that use of the ability will never begin (even if the Shackles are
then tapped _again_ in response; _that_ use of the ability will be fine, but
the duration for the first use has already ended).

The target creature doesn't go anywhere, so doesn't suddenly suffer "summoning
sickness" from changing sides, because it never changed sides at all.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 02:37:37 -0500, Yuliy Pisetsky
<mentalchaos@cox.net> wrote:

>Reading this made me think of another question about Vedalken Shackles.
>What happens if VS leaves play before the ability resolves. Does the
>creature pop back and forth, never change hands, or pop over and stay.

The duration stops before the effect starts, and thus it does nothing.

>I
>am not sure whether the fact that VS was tapped when it left play is
>significant or not.

It is not. The relevant permanent (VS) is no longer in play, and can
therefore not be tapped (or untapped for that matter).

Relevent sections of the comp rules:

217.5d An object not in the in-play zone isn't "in play" and isn't
considered tapped or untapped. Objects that aren't either in play or
on the stack aren't controlled by either player.

418.3d Some effects from activated or triggered abilities have
durations worded "as long as . . . ." If the "as long as" duration
ends between the end of playing the activated ability or putting the
triggered ability onto the stack and the moment when the effect would
first be applied, the effect does nothing. It doesn't start and
immediately stop again, and it doesn't last forever.
Example: Endoskeleton is an artifact with an activated ability that
reads "{o2}, {oT}: Target creature gets +0/+3 as long as Endoskeleton
remains tapped." If you play this ability and then Endoskeleton
becomes untapped before the ability resolves, it does nothing, because
its duration-remaining tapped-was over before the effect began.

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann