Sacrificing Ambush Commander

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

My opponent has an enchantment out reading "At the beginning of each player's
upkeep, for each creature that player controls, he or she must pay 1 life or
sacrifice that creature." I have an Ambush Commander in play and 7 forests.
At the beginning of my upkeep, am I able to use Ambush Commander's ability to
sacrifice itself, thus turning my forest creatures into regular forests again
and take no damage from my opponent's enchantment?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hello, Mrmagic715!
You wrote on 18 Aug 2004 19:45:42 GMT:

M> My opponent has an enchantment out reading "At the beginning of
M> each player's
M> upkeep, for each creature that player controls, he or she must
M> pay 1 life or
M> sacrifice that creature." I have an Ambush Commander in play and
M> 7 forests.
M> At the beginning of my upkeep, am I able to use Ambush
M> Commander's ability to
M> sacrifice itself, thus turning my forest creatures into regular
M> forests again
M> and take no damage from my opponent's enchantment?

No enchantment has the Oracle text you describe. The closest I could
find is Vile Consumption (and its printed text matches the one in
Oracle):

Vile Consumption
{1}{U}{B}
Enchantment
All creatures have "At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice this
creature unless you pay 1 life."

If this is the case, all your Forests have that ability and all of them
(along with your Ambush Commander and other creatures) trigger at the
beginning of your upkeep before you can do anything. Even if you put
those abilities on the stack in such an order that you sacrifice the
Ambush Commander first, your Forests still require the life payments to
keep them in play. Unfortunately, I couldn't find the relevant rule;
the closest one is this (though it refers to delayed triggered
abilities, it should work for regular triggered abilities the same way):


404.4d A delayed triggered ability that refers to a particular object
still affects it even if the object changes characteristics.

Example: An ability reading, "At end of turn, destroy that creature"
will destroy the permanent even if it's no longer a creature during the
end of turn step.

Hopefully, David DeLaney will step up and point out the correct rule (or
the lack thereof

Regards,
Arkady.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Mrmagic715 <mrmagic715@aol.com> wrote:

> My opponent has an enchantment out reading "At the beginning of each player's
> upkeep, for each creature that player controls, he or she must pay 1 life or
> sacrifice that creature."

Does that enchantment have a name?

> I have an Ambush Commander in play and 7 forests.
> At the beginning of my upkeep, am I able to use Ambush Commander's ability to
> sacrifice itself, thus turning my forest creatures into regular forests again
> and take no damage from my opponent's enchantment?

Nothing about a triggered ability on the stack would interfere with
playing the ability of Ambush Commander. (And an enchantment such as
you describe would not be inflicting damage anyway.)
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 18 Aug 2004 19:45:42 GMT, Mrmagic715 <mrmagic715@aol.com> wrote:
>My opponent has an enchantment out reading "At the beginning of each player's
>upkeep, for each creature that player controls, he or she must pay 1 life or
>sacrifice that creature."

The player decides how many to pay for, then pays that much life, then
sacrifices the unpaid-for creatures, with that wording. However, your
enchantment is Vile Consumption, and it currently reads

Vile Consumption 1UB Enchantment
All creatures have "At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice this creature
unless you pay 1 life.".

So it gives the ability to each creature separately, and each creature
triggers independently of each other creature, and resolves separately.

> I have an Ambush Commander in play and 7 forests.

If you put the Ambush Commander's ability on the stack on top of the others,
it will resolve first and if you sac the Commander, the forests will stop
being creatures then.

BUT this does NOT in any way counter -their- triggered abilities, all seven
of which are already on the stack under the AC's, or stop them from resolving
.... and the ability for each of them doesn't _care_ whether the Forest is
still a creature or not, on resolution. [202.2a tells you this]

So even if you sac the AC first, you'll still have to pay life for each
Forest or sac it, later on that upkeep, separately for each Forest.

(To avoid this, you want the AC to not be there as your upkeep -starts-,
which means either you get rid of it, by the latest, by the end of opponent's
previous turn, OR manage to give it phasing earlier, so that it phases out
before upkeep can start.)

>At the beginning of my upkeep, am I able to use Ambush Commander's ability to
>sacrifice itself, thus turning my forest creatures into regular forests again

Yes, and yes.

>and take no damage from my opponent's enchantment?

No; for one thing, no DAMAGE is involved here, just payment of life, which
is quite a different thing. For another thing, each of your Forest creatures
had its own separate triggered ability as your upkeep started; each one
triggered and went on the stack, ordered as you pleased, and each one WILL
still resolve even though the Forests may not be creatures any more ... and
202.2a lets you know that it will still force you to sacrifice the Forest
unless you pay 1 life, even though it's not a Forest -creature- any more.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

In <20040818154542.19394.00003804@mb-m04.aol.com> mrmagic715@aol.com (Mrmagic715) writes:

> My opponent has an enchantment out reading "At the beginning of
> each player's upkeep, for each creature that player controls, he
> or she must pay 1 life or sacrifice that creature." I have an
> Ambush Commander in play and 7 forests. At the beginning of my
> upkeep, am I able to use Ambush Commander's ability to sacrifice
> itself, thus turning my forest creatures into regular forests again
> and take no damage from my opponent's enchantment?

Yes. Here's how:

1. At the beginning of your your upkeep, the enchantment's triggered
ability goes on the stack.

2. In response to that, you play the activated ability of your
Ambush Commander, pay 1G, and sacrifice the Commander.

3. You declare that you have no more spells or abilities to
play at this time, and pass priority to your opponent.

4. Assuming that your opponent also has no abilities or spells
to play at this time, the topmost ability on the stack resolves.
You give +3/+3 to a target creature. (presumably one of your
own elf-forests.)

5. Again assuming neither you nor your opponent have any further
spells or abilities to play, the topmost ability on the stack
resolves. You have no creatures in play, so the ability
has no effect.
--
John Gordon "Between BST melee, their spells, their warders' melee,
gordon@panix.com and their warders' procs, they put out enough damage
to make monks cry." -- Dark Tyger

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

In <4123c38e$1_2@newsfeed.slurp.net> "Arkady Zilberberg" <arkadyz1@yahoo.com> writes:

> No enchantment has the Oracle text you describe. The closest I could
> find is Vile Consumption (and its printed text matches the one in
> Oracle):

Sigh. That'll teach me to answer a card question without looking
up the card first.

If there *were* an enchantment such as the OP described, though,
I think my answer would be correct.

--
John Gordon "Between BST melee, their spells, their warders' melee,
gordon@panix.com and their warders' procs, they put out enough damage
to make monks cry." -- Dark Tyger

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 18 Aug 2004 19:45:42 GMT, mrmagic715@aol.com (Mrmagic715) wrote:

>My opponent has an enchantment out reading "At the beginning of each player's
>upkeep, for each creature that player controls, he or she must pay 1 life or
>sacrifice that creature." I have an Ambush Commander in play and 7 forests.
>At the beginning of my upkeep, am I able to use Ambush Commander's ability to
>sacrifice itself, thus turning my forest creatures into regular forests again
>and take no damage from my opponent's enchantment?

If we imagine that this enchantment exists (if it is a real card, then
please give the name), then no you could not do the above to save your
Forests - provided off course that I read you correctly.

At the beginning of your upkeep this would trigger for each of your
creatures (AC + animated Forests) and all of the triggers goes on the
stack at the same time - you choose order.
If you then choose to put AC's trigger on top of the stack, so that it
resolves first, and then choose to sac it. Then your Forests would
indeed stop being creatures before their triggers resolve, but the
triggers are already on the stack and they will have no problem
killing off your now non-creature lands if you don't pay.

404.4c A delayed triggered ability that refers to a particular object
still affects it even if the object changes characteristics.
Example: An ability reading, "At end of turn, destroy that creature"
will destroy the permanent even if it's no longer a creature during
the end of turn step.


Now if you somehow get rid of the AC _before_ your upkeep began
(generally this means before your opponents cleanup phase), then the
Forests wouldn't trigger the enchantment, and thus you would not have
to pay.

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 00:34:38 +0200, Simon Nejmann
<snejmann@worldonline.REMOVETHIS.dk> wrote:

>On 18 Aug 2004 19:45:42 GMT, mrmagic715@aol.com (Mrmagic715) wrote:
>
>>My opponent has an enchantment out reading "At the beginning of each player's
>>upkeep, for each creature that player controls, he or she must pay 1 life or
>>sacrifice that creature." I have an Ambush Commander in play and 7 forests.
>>At the beginning of my upkeep, am I able to use Ambush Commander's ability to
>>sacrifice itself, thus turning my forest creatures into regular forests again
>>and take no damage from my opponent's enchantment?
>
>If we imagine that this enchantment exists (if it is a real card, then
>please give the name), then no you could not do the above to save your
>Forests - provided off course that I read you correctly.

Hmm, I have just read John Gordon's replies and I have made a mistake.

The enchantment you have describet abowe does not generate a seperate
trigger for each creature - it puts one big effect on the stack that
does not look for creatures untill it resolves. He is right and I am
wrong.

However if you are thinking of Vile Consumption, then it does work as
I described, and your trick won't work.

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann - who needs to read the cards before he answers...

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Mrmagic715 wrote:

> My opponent has an enchantment out reading "At the beginning of each
> player's upkeep, for each creature that player controls, he or she must
> pay 1 life or
> sacrifice that creature." I have an Ambush Commander in play and 7
> forests. At the beginning of my upkeep, am I able to use Ambush
> Commander's ability to sacrifice itself, thus turning my forest creatures
> into regular forests again and take no damage from my opponent's
> enchantment?

You cannot do *anything* at the beginning of your upkeep; you don't get
priority until the beginning of your upkeep has passed. You will get
priority with the enchantment's triggered ability on the stack. You
can then, however, sacrifice the Ambush Commander to itself, since your
opponent's ability hasn't resolved yet. Since in this case, sacrificing
the Commander is a cost, you pay it as you announce the Commander's ability.
Note that you choose targets *before* you pay costs, so it is legal to
to declare the Commander (or one of your forests) as a target. By the
time the opponent's ability resolves, you no longer have any creatures,
and thus have no upkeep to pay or permanents to sacrifice.

So, no, you can't use the Commander's ability at the beginning of your
upkeep, but you *can* use it to beat your opponent's enchantment, because
while the enchantment *triggers* at the beginning of your upkeep, it
doesn't *resolve* then.
--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Didn't dig deep enough in Oracle, I guess. I thought maybe you
were postulating a hypothetical card. If your opponent had a
card with the text you give, it would work the way I said, because
the triggered ability doesn't tote up your creatures until it
resolves. If your opponent had Vile Consumption, then it doesn't
work because you get a triggered ability for each creature that no
longer cares if it's a creature after it triggers. You can't prevent
the ability (abilities) from triggering--like I said, you can't do
anything at the beginning of your upkeep. It's a question of what
you can do with the ability(ies) after they trigger. In the first
case you can do something; in the second case you can't.
--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

The card I was thinking of was Vile Consumption, but I didnt know the name of
it so was just trying to give an idea of what was on the card. Obviously I was
off a little bit. Anyways, I have a followup question. You said that I don't
get priority until after the beginning of my upkeep. What if there are
multiple things in play that trigger at the beginning of my upkeep? Who
decides which trigger first?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

mrmagic715@aol.com (Mrmagic715) writes:
> The card I was thinking of was Vile Consumption, but I didnt know
> the name of it so was just trying to give an idea of what was on the
> card. Obviously I was off a little bit.

While the exact wording may seem minor at first, sometimes subtle
differences in wording make dramatic changes in the answer to a
particular rules question. Try to look up the exact name of the card
and its Oracle text from Wizards's site to ask questions about.

> Anyways, I have a followup question. You said that I don't get
> priority until after the beginning of my upkeep. What if there are
> multiple things in play that trigger at the beginning of my upkeep?
> Who decides which trigger first?

Well, they all trigger at the same time and wait to go onto the
stack. And just like any other time when more than one trigger is
waiting to go onto the stack, the active player (the one whose turn it
is) puts triggers he controls on the stack in the order he desires,
and then the nonactive player puts the triggers he controls on the
stack in the order he desires. Then the active player gets
priority. And as always, when both players pass priority, the top
thing on the stack resolves.

--
Peter C.
"The best cure for insomnia is to get a lot of sleep."
-- W. C. Fields

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Chris Mattern <matternc@comcast.net> wrote:
>Mrmagic715 wrote:
>> My opponent has an enchantment out reading "At the beginning of each
>> player's upkeep, for each creature that player controls, he or she must
>> pay 1 life or
>> sacrifice that creature." I have an Ambush Commander in play and 7
>> forests. At the beginning of my upkeep, am I able to use Ambush
>> Commander's ability to sacrifice itself, thus turning my forest creatures
>> into regular forests again and take no damage from my opponent's enchantment?

(Short answer: you can't get around Vile Consumption's ability's effect
except by removing the creature in question from play _before_ the ability
resolves.)

>You cannot do *anything* at the beginning of your upkeep; you don't get
>priority until the beginning of your upkeep has passed. You will get
>priority with the enchantment's triggered ability on the stack.

Abilities; it gives each creature a separate triggered ability, and there
were multiple Forests, plus the AC, in the question. As stated, there would
be 8 triggered abilities on the stack.

> You
>can then, however, sacrifice the Ambush Commander to itself, since your
>opponent's ability hasn't resolved yet. Since in this case, sacrificing
>the Commander is a cost, you pay it as you announce the Commander's ability.
>Note that you choose targets *before* you pay costs, so it is legal to
>to declare the Commander (or one of your forests) as a target.

Right.

> By the
>time the opponent's ability resolves, you no longer have any creatures,

Right.

>and thus have no upkeep to pay or permanents to sacrifice.

Wrong. There are still eight triggered abilities on the stack, each one
saying "sacrifice <this> unless you pay 1 life" for a different one of the
eight formerly-creatures. When the one from the AC resolves, the AC won't
be there, so you can refuse to pay the life, be told to sacrifice the AC,
and be unable to do so because the AC isn't there any more, and move on
having Done Nothing. But when each one from a Forest resolves, you either pay
1 life, or you have to sacrifice that Forest; the game doesn't CARE that that
Forest is no longer a Forest -creature-. 202.2a specifies this:

202.2a If an ability of an object uses a phrase such as "this [something]" to
identify an object, where [something] is a category or characteristic, it is
referring to that particular object, even if it isn't the appropriate category
or characteristic at the time.
Example: An ability reads "Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn.
Destroy that creature at end of turn". The ability will destroy the object it
gave +2/+2 at the end of the turn, even if that object isn't a creature
anymore.

>So, no, you can't use the Commander's ability at the beginning of your upkeep,

Right.

>but you *can* use it to beat your opponent's enchantment,

Not right.

>because while the enchantment *triggers* at the beginning of your upkeep, it
>doesn't *resolve* then.

Right ... but when the abilities the enchantment gives each creature -resolve-,
they honestly don't care if the creature is still a -creature- or not. They
do not -target- the creature that was their source, and don't say anything
about ", if it's (still) a creature,".

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 19 Aug 2004 17:52:34 GMT, Mrmagic715 <mrmagic715@aol.com> wrote:
>The card I was thinking of was Vile Consumption, but I didnt know the name of
>it so was just trying to give an idea of what was on the card. Obviously I was
>off a little bit. Anyways, I have a followup question. You said that I don't
>get priority until after the beginning of my upkeep. What if there are
>multiple things in play that trigger at the beginning of my upkeep? Who
>decides which trigger first?

They all trigger at the same time. What you actually wanna ask about is
"who decides _how they get ordered on the stack_?" ... because all of them will
be on the stack before you get priority.

And the answer for that is APNAP order: 410.3 goes through it for you. All
of active player's triggered abilities go on the stack first, in any order
that player chooses, then all of opponent's go on the stack on TOP of all
of the ones already there, in an order _that_ player chooses. (This means
that opponent's all resolve before any of active player's can resolve, too.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.