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Stack during Upkeep

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Anonymous
August 24, 2004 10:21:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

I have a Crucible of Worlds AND a Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale in play amongst a
number of other cards.

Start of opponents turn, he has 2 untapped lands, a Birds of Paradise and a
Viridian Zealot in play.

Opponent would like to sac the Zealot to knock out my Crucible of Worlds while
keeping his Birds in play.

So, question is this, the stack...'at beginning of upkeep' abilities trigger
after untap step, and so he must pay 1 for each of his creatures to keep them
in play. He taps one untapped land to pay for the Birds, but can he now tap
the other untapped land and his Birds to sacrifice the Viridian Zealot AND THUS
NEVER HAVE TO PAY UPKEEP FOR HIS ZEALOT and therefore use it to destroy my
Crucible?

My thinking on this is that this is a valid play.

Thanks for the help.

BH

More about : stack upkeep

Anonymous
August 24, 2004 10:21:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

LBradH <lbradh@aol.commmono> wrote:

> I have a Crucible of Worlds AND a Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale in play
> amongst a number of other cards.

Crucible of Worlds
{3}
Artifact
You may play land cards from your graveyard as though they were in your
hand.

The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Legendary Land
All creatures have "At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice this
creature unless you pay {1}."

> Start of opponents turn, he has 2 untapped lands, a Birds of Paradise and a
> Viridian Zealot in play.

Birds of Paradise
{G}
Creature -- Bird
0/1
Flying
{T}: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.

Viridian Zealot
{G}{G}
Creature -- Elf Warrior
2/1
{1}{G}, Sacrifice Viridian Zealot: Destroy target artifact or
enchantment.

> Opponent would like to sac the Zealot to knock out my Crucible of Worlds while
> keeping his Birds in play.
>
> So, question is this, the stack...'at beginning of upkeep' abilities
> trigger after untap step, and so he must pay 1 for each of his creatures
> to keep them in play. He taps one untapped land to pay for the Birds, but
> can he now tap the other untapped land and his Birds to sacrifice the
> Viridian Zealot AND THUS NEVER HAVE TO PAY UPKEEP FOR HIS ZEALOT and
> therefore use it to destroy my Crucible?
>
> My thinking on this is that this is a valid play.

The description is a little off, but here are the full details:

1) Opponent's upkeep step begins, triggering the "At the beginning of
your upkeep, sacrifice this creature unless you pay {1}." abilities on
opponent's creatures. Opponent would get priority, but there are two
triggered abilities to put on the stack.
2) The opponent puts both triggered abilities on the stack in the order
he chooses. In this case, the order won't really matter, but I'll say
the Viridian Zealot's is put on the stack first.
3) Opponent gets priority and decides to play the activated ability of
Viridian Zealot. He chooses your Crucible of Worlds as the target. He
taps the Birds of Paradise for a green mana and a land for some other
mana and pays the cost by spending those two mana and sacrificing the
Viridian Zealot.
4) Opponent gets priority and passes.
5) You get priority and pass.
6) The top item on the stack (the activated ability of Viridian Zealot)
resolves. Your Crucible of Worlds is destroyed.
7) Opponent gets priority and passes.
8) You get priority and pass.
9) The top item on the stack (the triggered ability of Birds of
Paradise) resolves. Opponent taps the remaining untapped land to get
mana and pays {1}.
10) Opponent gets priority and passes.
11) You get priority and pass.
12) The top item on the stack (the triggered ability of Viridian Zealot)
resolves. Opponent doesn't pay {1}. Opponent would then be required to
sacrifice Viridian Zealot but is unable to do so.
13) Opponent gets priority and ....

Obviously, some rearrangement is possible. Besides the possible of
swapping the two triggered abilities, the activated ability of Viridian
Zealot could be played after the Birds trigger resolves (but before the
Zealot's trigger does). Likewise, the various tappings for mana could
be played at one of the earlier times the opponent got priority.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
Anonymous
August 24, 2004 10:21:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 24 Aug 2004 18:21:13 GMT, LBradH <lbradh@aol.commmono> wrote:
>I have a Crucible of Worlds AND a Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale in play amongst a
>number of other cards.

Yay! (So you can play the Tabernacle from your graveyard if for some reason
it goes there.)

The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale Legendary Land
All creatures have "At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice this creature
unless you pay 1.".

>Start of opponents turn, he has 2 untapped lands, a Birds of Paradise and a
>Viridian Zealot in play.
>
>Opponent would like to sac the Zealot to knock out my Crucible of Worlds while
>keeping his Birds in play.

He can. We just answered this question in a different form (Ambush Commander,
Forests, and Vile Consumption). The Tabernacle gives _each creature
separately_ a triggered ability that triggers as upkeep starts... so all of
opponent's creatures' abilities will trigger and will already be on the stack
before the Zealot can be used during his turn at all. After the abilities are
on the stack, taking out the Tabernacle does not counter the abilities in
any way - it causes the creatures to lose the abilities, but that doesn't
take the abilities -on the stack- off the stack.

Opponent wanted to use the Zealot at the end of _your_ turn, before the
Tabernacle-granted abilities on his creatures triggered at all. Once his
turn starts, he has no chance to do anything until AFTER those abilities are
all on the stack already.

>So, question is this, the stack...'at beginning of upkeep' abilities trigger
>after untap step, and so he must pay 1 for each of his creatures to keep them
>in play. He taps one untapped land to pay for the Birds, but can he now tap
>the other untapped land and his Birds to sacrifice the Viridian Zealot AND THUS
>NEVER HAVE TO PAY UPKEEP FOR HIS ZEALOT and therefore use it to destroy my
>Crucible?

He can certainly sac the Zealot in response to the triggered Tabernacle-granted
abilities; nothing stops him from doing so. (The rules that used to apply that
would have prevented this had to do with "phase abilities" and went Away
entirely in spring 1999, over five years ago, at the same time "phase
abilities" themselves went Away.) But: a) this does not take the Zealot's OWN
triggered ability off the stack - it just makes it sort of useless when it
resolves - you can still pay the 1, or you can not pay, be told to sac the
already-missing Zealot, and Do Nothing because the Zealot's not there any more
and
b) this does not take any other creatures' Tabernacle-granted triggered
abilities off the stack EITHER. So he still has to pay for the Birds. Since
in the setup given he has already done so, this is fine. If he had only one
other way to get a point of mana, instead of two, he could not both use
the Zealot and keep the Birds.

>My thinking on this is that this is a valid play.

Yes, because whether he pays for the Birds is independent of whether he
pays for the Zealot, AND whether he pays for the Zealot is in a way
independent of whether he uses the Zealot's ability in response to the
T-granted ability that triggered off the Zealot.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
!