Isochron

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Do copies of spells played using an Isochron Scepter go to the graveyard and
count towards things like Threshold, Guiltfeeder, Accumulated Knowledge, etc.?

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Mrmagic715 <mrmagic715@aol.com> wrote:

> Do copies of spells played using an Isochron Scepter go to the graveyard

Yes, a copy of an instant spell is itself a spell, and will go to the
graveyard on resolution or countering just like any other instant spell.

Isochron Scepter
{2}
Artifact
Imprint -- When Isochron Scepter comes into play, you may remove an
instant card with converted mana cost 2 or less in your hand from the
game. (The removed card is imprinted on this artifact.)
{2}, {T}: You may copy the imprinted instant card and play the copy
without paying its mana cost.

503.12. An effect that instructs a player to "play a copy" of an object
follows the rules for playing spells and abilities, except that the copy
is played while another spell or ability is resolving. Playing a copy of
a nonland object follows steps 409.1a-409.1h of rule 409, "Playing
Spells and Activated Abilities," then the copy becomes played. The
played copy is a spell on the stack, and just like any other spell it
can resolve or be countered.

420.5j A copy of a spell in a zone other than the stack ceases to exist.
A copy of a card in any zone other than the stack or the in-play zone
ceases to exist.

> and
> count towards things like Threshold, Guiltfeeder, Accumulated Knowledge, etc.?

No, only cards in the graveyard count towards things like Threshold,
Guiltfeeder, Accumulated Knowledge, etc.

502.23. Threshold

502.23a Threshold is a characteristic-setting ability, written
"Threshold -- [text]." It alters the rules text of the object it's on,
based on a condition. The text can create any kind of ability. The
phrase "Threshold -- [text]" means "As long as you have seven or more
CARDS in your graveyard, [this object] has '[text].'"

Guiltfeeder
{3}{B}{B}
Creature -- Horror
0/4
Fear
Whenever Guiltfeeder attacks and isn't blocked, defending player loses 1
life for each CARD in his or her graveyard.

Accumulated Knowledge
{1}{U}
Instant
Draw a card, then draw cards equal to the number of CARDS named
Accumulated Knowledge in all graveyards.

[emphasis added]
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 29 Aug 2004 02:22:10 GMT, Mrmagic715 <mrmagic715@aol.com> wrote:
>Do copies of spells played using an Isochron Scepter go to the graveyard

Yes. And then they cease to exist, very much like a token would, because a
state-based effect noting that they can't exist outside of the Stack zone
notices them and Dissolves them.

>and
>count towards things like Threshold, Guiltfeeder, Accumulated Knowledge, etc.?

Nope. They are not CARDS. Nothing looking for a _card_ of a certain description
will _ever_ see a copy of a spell in the graveyard: Cognivore's power and
toughness do NOT momentarily change, Accumulated Knowledge can't see one, etc.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Carl Joly (palomides@videotron.ca) wrote:

: I think the answer is no. They don't go to the graveyard.
: As you've attach the rules to your answer, it state that outside
: the stack the copy cease to exist. So it will never hit the graveyard.

Actually, yes it will...but for a very short time.

You're quite right that outside the stack the copies cease to exist. But
the game has to be able to *find* them somewhere other than the stack
before it can tell them they no longer exist. So, the spell-copy
resolves, after which it goes to the graveyard just like any other spell.
*However*, immediately after this and before anyone can possibly do
anything else, the game checks what are called "state-based effects" and
realizes something is wrong - in this case that it has found a spell-copy
in a place where no spell-copy can exist (the graveyard) - and takes the
required action (makes the spell-copy cease to exist) to fix the problem.
Only after this is done can the game continue.

What this means is that anything triggered by a *spell* (not a spell
*card* as there's no card involved, but just a spell) going to the
graveyard gets set off. (I'm not sure if there really is any such
trigger; I'm hypothesizing here)

Anything affected by something staying in the graveyard is not affected by
a spell-copy, for two reasons: 1, it doesn't stay there long enough to
matter, and 2, even if it did, anything that looks at the graveyard for
what is there is only counting cards, and a spell-copy is not a card.

I hope this makes sense. The relevant rule is quoted below:

: Daniel W. Johnson wrote:

: >420.5j A copy of a spell in a zone other than the stack ceases to exist.
: >A copy of a card in any zone other than the stack or the in-play zone
: >ceases to exist.

Note that it cannot cease to exist until the game finds it to be in the
wrong place...thus by extension it has to be able to get there.

However, rules gurus: should this rule not include "as a state-based
effect" after both instances of "ceases to exist", to clarify at what
point the game checks where the spell or copy is?


Keith

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Carl Joly <palomides@videotron.ca> wrote:

> <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
> <tt>I think the answer is no. They don't go to the graveyard.<br>
> As you've attach the rules to your answer, it state that outside<br>
> the stack the copy cease to exist. So it will never hit the graveyard.<br>
> </tt><br>

This is not a web page.

And if it isn't in the graveyard when that state-based effect makes it
cease to exist, what zone IS it in, pray tell?

420.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 408, "Timing of
Spells and Abilities"), the game checks for any of the listed conditions
for state-based effects. All applicable effects resolve as a single
event, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based effects have
been generated, triggered abilities go on the stack, and then the
appropriate player gets priority. This check is also made during the
cleanup step (see rule 314); if any of the listed conditions apply, the
active player receives priority.

420.5. The state-based effects are as follows:

420.5j A copy of a spell in a zone other than the stack ceases to exist.
A copy of a card in any zone other than the stack or the in-play zone
ceases to exist.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Carl Joly <palomides@videotron.ca> wrote:
>I think the answer is no. They don't go to the graveyard.

Incorrect.

>As you've attach the rules to your answer, it state that outside
>the stack the copy cease to exist.

Yes.

>So it will never hit the graveyard.

No. It will go from the stack to the graveyard, THEN will cease to exist, the
next time state-based effects are checked for,

State-based effects are not continually checked for every moment of the game.
They are only checked for as the first part of "player is getting priority".
In particular, they are never checked for _inside_ the resolution of a spell
or ability ... and a spell goes to the graveyard as the last part of resolving.
It sits there for a moment, _then_ state-based effects are checked for. (Then
triggered abilities go on the stack, and finally active player actually has
priority and can actually DO something.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Keith Piddington <uj551@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca> wrote:
>: Daniel W. Johnson wrote:
>
>: >420.5j A copy of a spell in a zone other than the stack ceases to exist.
>: >A copy of a card in any zone other than the stack or the in-play zone
>: >ceases to exist.
>
>Note that it cannot cease to exist until the game finds it to be in the
>wrong place...thus by extension it has to be able to get there.
>
>However, rules gurus: should this rule not include "as a state-based
>effect" after both instances of "ceases to exist", to clarify at what
>point the game checks where the spell or copy is?

....No. Because: what section of the rules _is_ 420.5*, I ask you? Why, it is
the section listing the various kinds of ... state-based effects. You're only
confused because Daniel plucked this one (of the ten) state-based effect out
of its section and displayed it here.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 29 Aug 2004 01:00:58 -0800, uj551@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca (Keith
Piddington) wrote:

>: >420.5j A copy of a spell in a zone other than the stack ceases to exist.
>: >A copy of a card in any zone other than the stack or the in-play zone
>: >ceases to exist.

>However, rules gurus: should this rule not include "as a state-based
>effect" after both instances of "ceases to exist", to clarify at what
>point the game checks where the spell or copy is?

Nope, as that would not make sense... You are talking about rule
420.5j - rule 420.5 states:

420.5. The state-based effects are as follows:

Daniel did include that quote also

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Simon Nejmann <snejmann@worldonline.REMOVETHIS.dk> wrote:

> Daniel did include that quote also

In a later message.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Carl Joly wrote:

> I think the answer is no. They don't go to the graveyard.
> As you've attach the rules to your answer, it state that outside
> the stack the copy cease to exist. So it will never hit the graveyard.

It hits the graveyard - and then it ceases to exist. Just like with
token creatures going to the graveyard from play.

> Carl
>
> Daniel W. Johnson wrote:
>
>>Mrmagic715 <mrmagic715@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Do copies of spells played using an Isochron Scepter go to the graveyard
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Yes, a copy of an instant spell is itself a spell, and will go to the
>>graveyard on resolution or countering just like any other instant spell.
>>
>>
> ...
>
>>503.12. An effect that instructs a player to "play a copy" of an object
>>follows the rules for playing spells and abilities, except that the copy
>>is played while another spell or ability is resolving. Playing a copy of
>>a nonland object follows steps 409.1a-409.1h of rule 409, "Playing
>>Spells and Activated Abilities," then the copy becomes played. The
>>played copy is a spell on the stack, and just like any other spell it
>>can resolve or be countered.
>>
>>420.5j A copy of a spell in a zone other than the stack ceases to exist.
>>A copy of a card in any zone other than the stack or the in-play zone
>>ceases to exist.
>>
>>