Natural Affinity/Endless Whispers

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Natural Affinity
{2}{G}
Instant
Until end of turn, all lands become 2/2 creatures that are still
lands.

Endless Whispers
{2}{B}{B}
Enchantment
Each creature has "When this creature is put into a graveyard from
play, choose target opponent. That player puts this creature card from
that graveyard into play under his or her control at end of turn."

Echoing Decay
{1}{B}
Instant
Target creature and all other creatures with the same name as that
creature get -2/-2 until end of turn.

--------------------

With an Endless Whispers in play I play Natural Affinity. Next, I
play Echoing Decay targeting a Mountain, effectively destroying all
creatures named "Mountain". When his Mountains hit his graveyard he
chooses me as the recipient (I have no mountains).

Now, will I get all his mountains at the end of my turn, or does
Natural Affinity's "until end of turn" effect this ability since they
are no longer creatues at the end of my turn?

Thanks,

Phil

 

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Lophophora <nope@nope.com> writes:
> Natural Affinity {2}{G} Instant
> Until end of turn, all lands become 2/2 creatures that are still
> lands.
>
> Endless Whispers {2}{B}{B} Enchantment
> Each creature has "When this creature is put into a graveyard from
> play, choose target opponent. That player puts this creature card from
> that graveyard into play under his or her control at end of turn."
>
> Echoing Decay {1}{B} Instant
> Target creature and all other creatures with the same name as that
> creature get -2/-2 until end of turn.
> --------------------
>
> With an Endless Whispers in play I play Natural Affinity. Next, I
> play Echoing Decay targeting a Mountain, effectively destroying all
> creatures named "Mountain". When his Mountains hit his graveyard he
> chooses me as the recipient (I have no mountains).
>
> Now, will I get all his mountains at the end of my turn, or does
> Natural Affinity's "until end of turn" effect this ability since they
> are no longer creatues at the end of my turn?

You will get all his Mountains at the end of your turn. The Mountains
stopped becoming creatures as soon as they left play. In the
graveyard, they're just "land cards". However, the "put this creature
card into play" still works due to the following rule:

,----[ Magic Comp. Rules ]
| 202.2a If an ability of an object uses a phrase such as "this
| [something]" to identify an object, where [something] is a category
| or characteristic, it is referring to that particular object, even
| if it isn't the appropriate category or characteristic at the time.
| Example: An ability reads "Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of
| turn. Destroy that creature at end of turn." The ability will
| destroy the object it gave +2/+2 at the end of the turn, even if
| that object isn't a creature anymore.
`----

--
Peter C.
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World
War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
-- Albert Einstein

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:52:38 -0500, Lophophora <nope@nope.com> wrote:
>Natural Affinity 2G Instant
> Until end of turn, all lands become 2/2 creatures that are still lands.
>Endless Whispers 2BB Enchantment
> Each creature has "When this creature is put into a graveyard from play,
> choose target opponent. That player puts this creature card from that
> graveyard into play under his or her control at end of turn.".

Yes, land creatures that go to the graveyard with EW in play return under
opponent's control during the next end-of-turn step.

>Echoing Decay 1B Instant
> Target creature and all other creatures with the same name as that creature
> get -2/-2 until end of turn.
>
>With an Endless Whispers in play I play Natural Affinity. Next, I
>play Echoing Decay targeting a Mountain, effectively destroying all
>creatures named "Mountain". When his Mountains hit his graveyard he
>chooses me as the recipient (I have no mountains).
>
>Now, will I get all his mountains at the end of my turn, or does
>Natural Affinity's "until end of turn" effect this ability since they
>are no longer creatues at the end of my turn?

They are no longer creatures -the moment they hit the graveyard-. If that
were the criterion, EW would never get -anything- back into play, and would
be a singularly useless ability... The ability granted by EW only cares whether
what it's on is a creature as it goes to the graveyard (just before,
technically), not on what it may or may not be once it gets there.

So yes, you get all his Mountains, one by one, during the next end-of-turn
step after your Echoing Decay resolves. (If you had any he would get them.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"David DeLaney" <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote in message
news:slrncj79sp.4vr.dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com...

>Endless Whispers 2BB Enchantment
> Each creature has "When this creature is put into a graveyard from play,
> choose target opponent. That player puts this creature card from that
> graveyard into play under his or her control at end of turn.".

> They are no longer creatures -the moment they hit the graveyard-. If that
> were the criterion, EW would never get -anything- back into play, and
would
> be a singularly useless ability... The ability granted by EW only cares
whether
> what it's on is a creature as it goes to the graveyard (just before,
> technically), not on what it may or may not be once it gets there.
>
> So yes, you get all his Mountains, one by one, during the next end-of-turn
> step after your Echoing Decay resolves. (If you had any he would get
them.)

Hmmm... okay, it's been a couple of years since I really followed Magic
*wave to anyone who remembers me* so I'll ask for some clarification.

I grok the bit about there being no creatures in the graveyard. That matches
my recollection of how the rules work. However, I would have thought that
since the mountain was no longer a creature CARD and that Endless Whispers
specifies "That player puts this creature card..." that it wouldn't bring
back a mountain. Have the rules governing this changed over the last 2 or 3
years or is my memory faulty?

I see the same ruling on WoTC's website, so I'm not questioning that it's
correct, I'm just wondering how screwed up my memory is.


--- Hacksaw

 

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Hacksaw (nospam@nospam.net) wrote:

: "David DeLaney" <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote in message
: news:slrncj79sp.4vr.dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com...

: >Endless Whispers 2BB Enchantment
: > Each creature has "When this creature is put into a graveyard from play,
: > choose target opponent. That player puts this creature card from that
: > graveyard into play under his or her control at end of turn.".

: > They are no longer creatures -the moment they hit the graveyard-. If that
: > were the criterion, EW would never get -anything- back into play, and
: would
: > be a singularly useless ability... The ability granted by EW only cares
: whether
: > what it's on is a creature as it goes to the graveyard (just before,
: > technically), not on what it may or may not be once it gets there.
: >
: > So yes, you get all his Mountains, one by one, during the next end-of-turn
: > step after your Echoing Decay resolves. (If you had any he would get
: them.)

: I grok the bit about there being no creatures in the graveyard. That matches
: my recollection of how the rules work. However, I would have thought that
: since the mountain was no longer a creature CARD and that Endless Whispers
: specifies "That player puts this creature card..." that it wouldn't bring
: back a mountain. Have the rules governing this changed over the last 2 or 3
: years or is my memory faulty?

The EW effect is using Last Known Information (LKI). When the
creature-mountains died, the EW last saw them leaving play as creatures.
It can only look at things in play or remember LKI from what it saw when
things were last in play. So, at end of turn it asks "Did any creatures
go to the graveyard this turn?" Answer comes back yes. Then it asks "Are
any of those cards-I-last-saw-as-creatures still in the graveyard I saw
them going to?" Answer comes back yes, and for each such card EW says
"OK, put this back in play under the control of the opponent targeted
earlier when it went to the graveyard."

Now, perhaps the EW might look at the now-not-creatures cards after they
get back into play and say to itself "Oops, I shouldn't have done that.",
but by then it's too late; they're in play regardless, and the game rolls
on.
(although by the fact that EW specifically states "that *creature* card",
the original design intent might well have been to have the returning card
be checked again for creature-ness before coming back into play...anyone
know if this is the case and if not, why doesn't it just say "that
card"?... but the rules do not allow this, so the EW has to use LKI)


Keith "hmmm...let's see...EW in play, I hard-cast Phage and shoot it..."

 

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Hacksaw <nospam@nospam.net> wrote:
>I grok the bit about there being no creatures in the graveyard. That matches
>my recollection of how the rules work. However, I would have thought that
>since the mountain was no longer a creature CARD and that Endless Whispers
>specifies "That player puts this creature card..." that it wouldn't bring
>back a mountain. Have the rules governing this changed over the last 2 or 3
>years or is my memory faulty?

Your memory may be faulty. "that <foo>", "this <foo>", or "the <foo>" refer
back to the _something_ that, last time it was mentioned on the card, was
called a <foo>. Pretty much goes all the way back to Berserk vs Jade Statue -
you still destroy the Statue, even though it's not a creature any more when
you get to the end of this turn...

The relevant rule is 202.2a; I can't search right now to see how long that
rule's explicitly been there, I'm at work...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:

> The relevant rule is 202.2a; I can't search right now to see how long that
> rule's explicitly been there, I'm at work...

The Fifth Edition rulebook has that rule on page 45. I can't seem to
find it in any earlier version of the rulebook, but the Rules Team gave
such a ruling back in 1995.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Keith Piddington <uj551@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca> wrote:
>Hacksaw (nospam@nospam.net) wrote:
>: >Endless Whispers 2BB Enchantment
>: > Each creature has "When this creature is put into a graveyard from play,
>: > choose target opponent. That player puts this creature card from that
>: > graveyard into play under his or her control at end of turn.".

>The EW effect is using Last Known Information (LKI).

No; no, it's not, not worded like that. (If it said "this creature" it would
be...) It's looking for the creature (card) in the graveyard, and the creature
card is _in_ the graveyard where it's being looked for, so you have current
information for it, so _can't_ use LKI. LKI is used for stuff that's not
where it's supposed to be, if you still need to know what it looked like
there.

>So, at end of turn it asks "Did any creatures
>go to the graveyard this turn?"

No, it doesn't. The triggered ability EW gives creatures triggers _as they go
to the graveyard_, on the spot. On resolution, it creates a _delayed_ triggered
ability; that d-t-a waits around until "at end of turn", then triggers and
goes on the stack, regardless of whether EW is still around or not.

[snip]

The EW does not need to be in play during end-of-turn step at all. It only
needs to be there as the creature involved dies.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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"David DeLaney" <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote in message
news:slrncj94uf.toq.dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com...
> Hacksaw <nospam@nospam.net> wrote:
> >I grok the bit about there being no creatures in the graveyard. That
matches
> >my recollection of how the rules work. However, I would have thought that
> >since the mountain was no longer a creature CARD and that Endless
Whispers
> >specifies "That player puts this creature card..." that it wouldn't bring
> >back a mountain. Have the rules governing this changed over the last 2 or
3
> >years or is my memory faulty?
>
> Your memory may be faulty. "that <foo>", "this <foo>", or "the <foo>"
refer
> back to the _something_ that, last time it was mentioned on the card, was
> called a <foo>. Pretty much goes all the way back to Berserk vs Jade
Statue -
> you still destroy the Statue, even though it's not a creature any more
when
> you get to the end of this turn...

Hmmm... yep, I remember that particular interaction. I could have sworn
there was something about card types in the graveyard though. Oh well, I'll
just chalk it up to senility. Many thanks for the information sir!


--- Hacksaw