phasing/echo

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

In general, how does Phasing and Echo interact?

For example, if I cast Cloak of Invisibility on an Avalanche Riders. How
exactly will Echo take place and when, and if more than once, how many times.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

LBradH <lbradh@aol.commmono> wrote:

> In general, how does Phasing and Echo interact?

First, the relevant rules:

502.15. Phasing

502.15a Phasing is a static ability that modifies the rules of the untap
step.

502.15b During each player's untap step, before the active player untaps
his or her permanents, all permanents with phasing the player controls
phase out. Simultaneously, all objects that had phased out under that
player's control phase in. (See rule 217.8, "Phased-Out," and rule
302.1.)

502.15c If an effect causes a player to skip his or her untap step, the
phasing event simply doesn't occur that turn.

502.15d Permanents phasing in don't trigger any comes-into-play
abilities, and effects that modify how a permanent comes into play are
ignored. Abilities and effects that specifically mention phasing can
modify or trigger on this event, however. Permanents phasing out trigger
leaves-play abilities as usual. (Because no player receives priority
during the untap step, any abilities triggering off of the phasing event
won't go onto the stack until the upkeep step begins.)

502.15i When a permanent phases out, any local enchantments or Equipment
attached to that permanent phase out at the same time. This alternate
way of phasing out is known as phasing out "indirectly." An enchantment
or Equipment that phased out indirectly won't phase in by itself, but
instead phases in along with the card it's attached to.


502.19. Echo

502.19a Echo is a triggered ability. "Echo" means "At the beginning of
your upkeep, if this permanent came under your control since the
beginning of your last upkeep, sacrifice it unless you pay its mana
cost."

On a turn when a permanent phases in during its controller's untap step,
the echo ability will trigger at the beginning of the upkeep step.
Nothing about phasing will interfere with this.

> For example, if I cast Cloak of Invisibility on an Avalanche Riders. How
> exactly will Echo take place and when, and if more than once, how many times.

Each upkeep step on a turn when it phases in (assuming nothing else
happens). Here's a little detail (only considering the turns for
Avalanche Riders's controller):

Turn 0 (arbitrary label for the turn when the Cloak of Invisibility is
cast): The Avalanche Riders's echo may have triggered during the upkeep
step, depending on exactly how long it has been in play.

Turn 1: Avalanche Riders phases out during the untap step, along with
Cloak of Invisibility. Nothing special happens during the upkeep step,
since there is no Avalanche Riders in play to have its ability trigger.

Turn 2: Avalanche Riders phases in during the untap step, along with
Cloak of Invisibility. By 502.15d, this does not trigger the second
ability of Avalanche Riders. At the beginning of the upkeep step, the
echo ability triggers; it came under its controller's control since the
start of turn 1's upkeep. (Rule 502.15d does not interfere with this
last point.) I'll assume that the controller pays the cost when the
echo ability resolves.

Turn 3: See turn 1.

Turn 4: See turn 2.

Turn 5: See turn 3.

Turn 6: See ....

Well, you get the idea.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 07 Sep 2004 00:03:53 GMT, LBradH <lbradh@aol.commmono> wrote:
>In general, how does Phasing and Echo interact?

Something that phases in is something you gained control of since the
beginning of your last upkeep. If it has Echo, you have to pay the Echo (or
sac the permanent) on the upkeep of each turn it phases in on.

>For example, if I cast Cloak of Invisibility on an Avalanche Riders. How
>exactly will Echo take place and when, and if more than once, how many times.

Each turn that the Avalanche Riders phase in during untap step, they will
have to deal with their Echo in the upkeep step of that same turn. (If they
phase in -after- upkeep has already started, say they get let out of the
Coffin, they don't have to deal with it that turn, but will on their
controller's next turn's upkeep if they're still there.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

#------------------------------------------------------------------------
# 502.19a Echo is a triggered ability. “Echo” means “At the beginning of
# your upkeep, if this permanent came under your control since the
# beginning of your last upkeep, sacrifice it unless you pay its mana
# cost.”
#
# 502.15. Phasing
#
# 502.15a Phasing is a static ability that modifies the rules of the
# untap step.
#
# 502.15b During each player’s untap step, before the active player
# untaps his or her permanents, all permanents with phasing the player
# controls phase out. Simultaneously, all objects that had phased out
# under that player’s control phase in. (See rule 217.8, “Phased-Out,”
# and rule |302.1.)
#
# 502.15d Permanents phasing in don’t trigger any comes-into-play
# abilities, and effects that modify how a permanent comes into play are
# ignored. Abilities and effects that specifically mention phasing can
# modify or trigger on this event, however. Permanents phasing out
# trigger leaves-play abilities as usual. (Because no player receives
# priority during the untap step, any abilities triggering off of the
# phasing event won’t go onto the stack until the upkeep step begins.)
#
# 502.15f A card that returns to play from the phased-out zone is
# considered the same permanent it was when it left. This is an
# exception to rule 217.1c, which stipulates that a permanent “forgets”
# its previous existence when it changes zones.
#------------------------------------------------------------------------

I suppose that you casted Cloak of Invisisbility on the same turn that
of Avalanche Riders. So on the next turn Avalanche Riders phase out.
When on the next next turn Avalanche Riders phase in the Echo ability
will trigger and check since when you controlled Avalanche Riders.
It will see that it is longer than "since the beginning of your last
upkeep" and will not ask you to pay is mana cost.

Carl


LBradH wrote:
> In general, how does Phasing and Echo interact?
>
> For example, if I cast Cloak of Invisibility on an Avalanche Riders. How
> exactly will Echo take place and when, and if more than once, how many times.
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Carl Joly (palomides@videotron.ca) wrote:
: #------------------------------------------------------------------------
: # 502.19a Echo is a triggered ability. “Echo” means “At the beginning of
: # your upkeep, if this permanent came under your control since the
: # beginning of your last upkeep, sacrifice it unless you pay its mana
: # cost.”
: #
: # 502.15. Phasing
: #
: # 502.15a Phasing is a static ability that modifies the rules of the
: # untap step.
: #
: # 502.15b During each player’s untap step, before the active player
: # untaps his or her permanents, all permanents with phasing the player
: # controls phase out. Simultaneously, all objects that had phased out
: # under that player’s control phase in. (See rule 217.8, “Phased-Out,”
: # and rule |302.1.)
: #
: # 502.15d Permanents phasing in don’t trigger any comes-into-play
: # abilities, and effects that modify how a permanent comes into play are
: # ignored. Abilities and effects that specifically mention phasing can
: # modify or trigger on this event, however. Permanents phasing out
: # trigger leaves-play abilities as usual. (Because no player receives
: # priority during the untap step, any abilities triggering off of the
: # phasing event won’t go onto the stack until the upkeep step begins.)
: #
: # 502.15f A card that returns to play from the phased-out zone is
: # considered the same permanent it was when it left. This is an
: # exception to rule 217.1c, which stipulates that a permanent “forgets”
: # its previous existence when it changes zones.
: #------------------------------------------------------------------------

: I suppose that you casted Cloak of Invisisbility on the same turn that
: of Avalanche Riders. So on the next turn Avalanche Riders phase out.
: When on the next next turn Avalanche Riders phase in the Echo ability
: will trigger and check since when you controlled Avalanche Riders.
: It will see that it is longer than "since the beginning of your last
: upkeep" and will not ask you to pay is mana cost.

Unfortunately, not the case. When one of your cards is phased out it is
not "in play", and while you still own it, you do not - in the Magic sense
- "control" it. Just like you don't control cards in your library, RFG
zone, etc., though you still own them. Own and control are not the same.

Echo looks at "control" since your last upkeep; by definition, this
implies it has to have been continuously in play on your side since then
as well. Flicker cast on the AR, for example, would also prompt a
repayment of echo costs next upkeep (or give you a chance to sacrifice
it if for some reason you didn't want it around any more...)


Keith

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Carl Joly <palomides@videotron.ca> wrote:
>#------------------------------------------------------------------------
># 502.19a Echo is a triggered ability. Echo means At the beginning of
># your upkeep, if this permanent came under your control since the
># beginning of your last upkeep, sacrifice it unless you pay its mana
># cost.
>#
># 502.15. Phasing
>#
># 502.15a Phasing is a static ability that modifies the rules of the
># untap step.
>#
># 502.15b During each players untap step, before the active player
># untaps his or her permanents, all permanents with phasing the player
># controls phase out. Simultaneously, all objects that had phased out
># under that players control phase in. (See rule 217.8, Phased-Out,
># and rule |302.1.)
>
>I suppose that you casted Cloak of Invisisbility on the same turn that
>of Avalanche Riders. So on the next turn Avalanche Riders phase out.
>When on the next next turn Avalanche Riders phase in the Echo ability
>will trigger and check since when you controlled Avalanche Riders.

Yes.

>It will see that it is longer than "since the beginning of your last
>upkeep" and will not ask you to pay is mana cost.

No. You gained control of them when they phased in. (They -originally came
into play- longer ago than that ... but Echo doesn't ASK when they came into
play originally, it asked when -you gained control of them-.) That was during
_this_ turn's untap step, which is long past "the beginning of your -last-
upkeep". (Echo also doesn't say "have you controlled this since the beginning
of -the current- upkeep, as it would usually be a fairly pointless ability if
it did; it's not asking "Have you controlled this since the beginning of
-this turn-?" either, but if it were phasing in would fail that test too.)

Phasing in did not -trigger- anything that triggers when the permanent comes
into play, including the Avalanche Riders' own CIP ability. And it does not
do anything in general that's done as, with, or before the permanent comes
into play. But the permanent DOES come into play - think of it as "nothing
happens to notice right then", if that helps any. Echo, which checks later
on, notices just fine that this Riders appeared in play during your untap
step under your control _and was not there before then_.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.