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Delphi-like test ?

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September 11, 2004 9:10:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Many years ago... I remember a couple Delphi tests (I and II) --
created by various people (Mike Kastberg, Ingo Warnke, Laurie
Cheers?). Has there been a Delphi test (or similar test) posted in
the last 4 or so years? Or is there any plans to create such a test?
I enjoyed those questions (I remember a Land Grant question that
caused several people headaches).

Just for fun, I've tried to create a sample Delphi-like question
below.

Ken
------------------------------
Ingo has a Zephid, 2 islands, and 3 mountains (all untapped) in play
and a Mogg Infestation in his hand. Laurie has a Phantom Monster, 2
islands, and 2 plains (all untapped) in play and an Oblation in his
hand. Each player has 1 card left in his library.

Ingo plays Mogg Infestation on Laurie's Phantom Monster (resolves,
producing 2 goblin tokens), then declares an attack with Zephid.
Laurie plays Oblation on one of his Goblin tokens. Both players pass.

What happens?
a) Goblin token is removed from the game, Laurie shuffles his deck
and tries to draw 2, losing the game.
b) Laurie shuffles the Goblin token into his deck and draws the
token and his last card. The Goblin token is then removed from the
game and the game continues.
c) Laurie shuffles the Goblin token into his deck and tries to draw
2, losing the game.
d) Goblin token is removed from the game, Ingo shuffles his deck
and tries to draw 2, losing the game.
e) Ingo shuffles the Goblin token into his deck and draws the token
and his last card. The Goblin token is then removed from the game and
the game continues.
f) Ingo shuffles the Goblin token into his deck and tries to draw
2, losing the game.

Mogg Infestation
{3}{R}{R}
Sorcery
Destroy all creatures target player controls. For each creature put
into a graveyard this way, put two 1/1 red Goblin creature tokens into
play under that player's control.

Zephid
{4}{U}{U}
Creature -- Illusion
3/4
Flying
Zephid can't be the target of spells or abilities.

Oblation
{2}{W}
Instant
The owner of target nonland permanent shuffles it into his or her
library, then draws two cards.

More about : delphi test

Anonymous
September 12, 2004 2:36:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 11 Sep 2004 17:10:20 -0700, Ken <kfutamura@comcast.net> wrote:
>Many years ago... I remember a couple Delphi tests (I and II) --
>created by various people (Mike Kastberg, Ingo Warnke, Laurie
>Cheers?). Has there been a Delphi test (or similar test) posted in
>the last 4 or so years? Or is there any plans to create such a test?
>I enjoyed those questions (I remember a Land Grant question that
>caused several people headaches).

The Delphi Test II is at
http://www.magicadvisor.com/delphi/delphi2.html

- first thing pulled up for "delphi test magic" by Google.

(The original appears to be still available through
http://www.austrian-magic.at/coverage/delphitest.htm ...)

I put together a few questions for my friend Jym to use as part of seeing
whether people are ready to test for judgeship, though as the process
involves much more "see -how- they answer, and which things they're clear
on" than "see if they get to the right answer or not" it's probably not
much use to spread them around.

<snip good question>

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Anonymous
September 12, 2004 8:31:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Ken, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> Just for fun, I've tried to create a sample Delphi-like question
> below.
>
> Ken
> ------------------------------
> Ingo has a Zephid, 2 islands, and 3 mountains (all untapped) in play
> and a Mogg Infestation in his hand. Laurie has a Phantom Monster, 2
> islands, and 2 plains (all untapped) in play and an Oblation in his
> hand. Each player has 1 card left in his library.
>
> Ingo plays Mogg Infestation on Laurie's Phantom Monster (resolves,
> producing 2 goblin tokens), then declares an attack with Zephid.
> Laurie plays Oblation on one of his Goblin tokens. Both players pass.
>
> What happens?

I'm thinking it's this one.

> e) Ingo shuffles the Goblin token into his deck and draws the token
> and his last card. The Goblin token is then removed from the game and
> the game continues.

Though technically, isn't it "ceases to exist" rather than "is removed
from the game"?
Related resources
Anonymous
September 12, 2004 8:31:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jeff Heikkinen <oh@s.if> wrote:
>Ken, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
>> What happens?
>
>I'm thinking it's this one.
>
>> e) Ingo shuffles the Goblin token into his deck and draws the token
>> and his last card. The Goblin token is then removed from the game and
>> the game continues.

Nope. Part of this can't happen, and ...

>Though technically, isn't it "ceases to exist" rather than "is removed
>from the game"?

....technically it is, but that's not the main problem with this choice.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
September 12, 2004 11:21:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote in
news:slrnck7ppa.qs8.dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com:

> Jeff Heikkinen <oh@s.if> wrote:
>>Ken, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
>>> What happens?
>>
>>I'm thinking it's this one.
>>
>>> e) Ingo shuffles the Goblin token into his deck and draws the token
>>> and his last card. The Goblin token is then removed from the game and
>>> the game continues.
>
> Nope. Part of this can't happen, and ...
>
>>Though technically, isn't it "ceases to exist" rather than "is removed
>>from the game"?
>
> ...technically it is, but that's not the main problem with this choice.
>
> Dave

i'm thinking its this one
b) Laurie shuffles the Goblin token into his deck and draws the
token and his last card. The Goblin token is then removed from the
game and the game continues.

he wouldn't lose the game because the spell doesn't tell him that he loses
the game if he can't draw two he would lose the game the next turn doring
his draw phase assuming the game continued on to his next turn because he
won't be able to draw again.
Anonymous
September 12, 2004 3:08:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sun, 11 Sep 2004, Ken wrote:

> Just for fun, I've tried to create a sample Delphi-like question
> below.
>
> Ken
> ------------------------------
> Ingo has a Zephid, 2 islands, and 3 mountains (all untapped) in play
> and a Mogg Infestation in his hand. Laurie has a Phantom Monster, 2
> islands, and 2 plains (all untapped) in play and an Oblation in his
> hand. Each player has 1 card left in his library.
>
> Ingo plays Mogg Infestation on Laurie's Phantom Monster (resolves,
> producing 2 goblin tokens), then declares an attack with Zephid.
> Laurie plays Oblation on one of his Goblin tokens. Both players pass.
>
> What happens?

I think it's:

> f) Ingo shuffles the Goblin token into his deck and tries to draw
> 2, losing the game.

since Oblation instructs you to draw 2 cards while the token isn't a
card. Obviously the token doesn't cease to exist during resolution
because state-based effects aren't checked.

--

David
Anonymous
September 12, 2004 3:52:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 11:08:00 +0200, David de Kloet <dskloet@cs.vu.nl>
wrote:

>On Sun, 11 Sep 2004, Ken wrote:
>
>> Just for fun, I've tried to create a sample Delphi-like question
>> below.
>>
>> Ken
>> ------------------------------
>> Ingo has a Zephid, 2 islands, and 3 mountains (all untapped) in play
>> and a Mogg Infestation in his hand. Laurie has a Phantom Monster, 2
>> islands, and 2 plains (all untapped) in play and an Oblation in his
>> hand. Each player has 1 card left in his library.
>>
>> Ingo plays Mogg Infestation on Laurie's Phantom Monster (resolves,
>> producing 2 goblin tokens), then declares an attack with Zephid.
>> Laurie plays Oblation on one of his Goblin tokens. Both players pass.
>>
>> What happens?
>
>I think it's:
>
>> f) Ingo shuffles the Goblin token into his deck and tries to draw
>> 2, losing the game.
>
>since Oblation instructs you to draw 2 cards while the token isn't a
>card. Obviously the token doesn't cease to exist during resolution
>because state-based effects aren't checked.

I'm going to throw my vote here too.

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann
Anonymous
September 12, 2004 5:09:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 11 Sep 2004 22:36:05 -0400, dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney)
wrote:

>On 11 Sep 2004 17:10:20 -0700, Ken <kfutamura@comcast.net> wrote:
>>Many years ago... I remember a couple Delphi tests (I and II) --
>>created by various people (Mike Kastberg, Ingo Warnke, Laurie
>>Cheers?). Has there been a Delphi test (or similar test) posted in
>>the last 4 or so years? Or is there any plans to create such a test?
>>I enjoyed those questions (I remember a Land Grant question that
>>caused several people headaches).
>
>The Delphi Test II is at
>http://www.magicadvisor.com/delphi/delphi2.html

Aaw, it gives me an error every time I try to make it check my
answers...

>(The original appears to be still available through
>http://www.austrian-magic.at/coverage/delphitest.htm ...)

And has a checklist at
http://www.austrian-magic.at/coverage/delphloes.htm

But how many of them have gone out of date? Eg:

** Question **
26. Ingo has a Gaea's Cradle and an Island in play. Laurie uses her
Tidal Warrior to turn Ingo's Gaea's Cradle into an Island until the
end of turn. What happens?

Gaea's Cradle (Legendary Land): T: Add G to your mana pool for each
creature you control.
Tidal Warrior (Merfolk): T: Target land becomes an island until end of
turn.

a) Ingo now has a Legendary Island in play, and when the game checks
for state based effects it will be buried.
b) Ingo has 2 basic Islands in play, neither is Legendary, so nothing
happens.
c) The newly created Island is Legendary, but as there are no other
Legendary Islands in play nothing happens.

** Answer **
26b) Ingo has 2 basic Islands in play, neither is Legendary, so
nothing happens.
214.9f If an effect changes a permanent into a basic land, the
permanent is no longer its old land type and has only the mana ability
of that basic land. It now counts as a basic land. If that land was
"Legendary," it is no longer.
**

But:
212.6e If an effect changes a land's type to one or more of the basic
land types, the land no longer has its old land type.
....
Changing a land's type doesn't add or remove any types (such as
creature) or supertypes (such as basic and legendary) the land may
have.
....

And from that the correct answer should be C (right?).

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann
Anonymous
September 12, 2004 7:12:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Marcus <jojothebadclown@hotmail.com> wrote:
>dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote in
>> Jeff Heikkinen <oh@s.if> wrote:
>>>Ken, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
>>>I'm thinking it's this one.
>>>
>>>> e) Ingo shuffles the Goblin token into his deck and draws the token
>>>> and his last card. The Goblin token is then removed from the game and
>>>> the game continues.
>>
>> Nope. Part of this can't happen, and ...
>
>i'm thinking its this one
>b) Laurie shuffles the Goblin token into his deck and draws the
>token and his last card. The Goblin token is then removed from the
>game and the game continues.

Question for you: Does Oblation say "its controller shuffles target permanent
he or she controls into..."?

And this has the same problem as the previous guess, in addition.

>he wouldn't lose the game because the spell doesn't tell him that he loses
>the game if he can't draw two he would lose the game the next turn doring
>his draw phase assuming the game continued on to his next turn because he
>won't be able to draw again.

And ... the draw step (not 'phase') is by no means the only place you can
lose for trying to draw from an empty library.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Anonymous
September 12, 2004 7:14:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Simon Nejmann <snejmann@worldonline.REMOVETHIS.dk> wrote:
>dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
>>(The original appears to be still available through
>>http://www.austrian-magic.at/coverage/delphitest.htm ...)
>
>And has a checklist at
>http://www.austrian-magic.at/coverage/delphloes.htm
>
>But how many of them have gone out of date? Eg:

Some have, granted; this was part of the impetus for creating #2.

>** Question **
>26. Ingo has a Gaea's Cradle and an Island in play. Laurie uses her
>Tidal Warrior to turn Ingo's Gaea's Cradle into an Island until the
>end of turn. What happens?
>
>a) Ingo now has a Legendary Island in play, and when the game checks
>for state based effects it will be buried.
>b) Ingo has 2 basic Islands in play, neither is Legendary, so nothing happens.
>c) The newly created Island is Legendary, but as there are no other
>Legendary Islands in play nothing happens.
>
>** Answer **
>26b) Ingo has 2 basic Islands in play, neither is Legendary, so
>nothing happens.
>**
>
>But:
>212.6e If an effect changes a land's type to one or more of the basic
>land types, the land no longer has its old land type.
>Changing a land's type doesn't add or remove any types (such as
>creature) or supertypes (such as basic and legendary) the land may have.

Yes, this has changed, so:

>And from that the correct answer should be C (right?).

Right. Note that they psychically predicted what the correct answer now would
be, just so they could include it back then as a wrong answer...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Anonymous
September 12, 2004 7:19:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Simon Nejmann <snejmann@worldonline.REMOVETHIS.dk> wrote:
>David de Kloet <dskloet@cs.vu.nl> wrote:
>>> Ingo plays Mogg Infestation on Laurie's Phantom Monster (resolves,
>>> producing 2 goblin tokens), then declares an attack with Zephid.
>>> Laurie plays Oblation on one of his Goblin tokens. Both players pass.
>>
>>I think it's:
>>> f) Ingo shuffles the Goblin token into his deck and tries to draw
>>> 2, losing the game.
>>
>>since Oblation instructs you to draw 2 cards while the token isn't a
>>card. Obviously the token doesn't cease to exist during resolution
>>because state-based effects aren't checked.
>
>I'm going to throw my vote here too.

That's the one. The tokens are controlled by Laurie, because MI says so, but
owned by Ingo, because Ingo's MI made them. So Oblation shuffles the token into
Ingo's deck. Then, yes, you can't draw a token, because it's not a card; Ingo
draws the 1 card in his deck, leaving the token there momentarily.

Then the token Ceases To Exist, and Ingo loses for having been unable to draw
two cards, at the exact same time. Since both are state-based effects.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
September 13, 2004 3:26:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

kfutamura@comcast.net (Ken) wrote in message news:<d069ae6d.0409111610.4b91d1ea@posting.google.com>...
> Many years ago... I remember a couple Delphi tests (I and II) --
> created by various people (Mike Kastberg, Ingo Warnke, Laurie
> Cheers?). Has there been a Delphi test (or similar test) posted in
> the last 4 or so years? Or is there any plans to create such a test?

It seems that there is no new test (e.g., Delphi test III) recently.
Ah well... Maybe it's time for some of us to create one :-). By the
way, my posts seem to take over half a day to appear, so I apologize
if this gets out after everyone has "left the building".

> ------------------------------
> Ingo has a Zephid, 2 islands, and 3 mountains (all untapped) in play
> and a Mogg Infestation in his hand. Laurie has a Phantom Monster, 2
> islands, and 2 plains (all untapped) in play and an Oblation in his
> hand. Each player has 1 card left in his library.
>
> Ingo plays Mogg Infestation on Laurie's Phantom Monster (resolves,
> producing 2 goblin tokens), then declares an attack with Zephid.
> Laurie plays Oblation on one of his Goblin tokens. Both players pass.
>
> What happens?

> f) Ingo shuffles the Goblin token into his deck and tries to draw
> 2, losing the game.

As most have figured out by now, (f) is the correct answer <lets out a
sigh of relief that it was indeed correct>. (Yes, I had messed up
with "remove from the game" instead of "cease to exist" regarding the
Goblin token -- this is why I shouldn't write Delphi questions...)

Main points in the question:
1) *Owner* of the Goblin tokens is Ingo since he cast Mogg Infestation
(and so Oblation affects him).
2) Goblin token "ceases to exist" as a state-based effect, not during
resolution. So they *do* get shuffled into his library.
3) Goblin tokens are not cards and are not drawn, so Ingo cannot draw
a second card. He loses the game (and the token ceases to exist from
his library) as a state-based effect.
4) Both Laurie and Ingo are smart people, so they should both play so
:-). (I originally had both at 3 life...)

Finally, I'd like to thank those on this newsgroup, in particular Dave
DeLaney, for their excellent comments (from which I got some of the
ideas for this question). Though I rarely play these days, I'm always
coming back to these newgroups.

Thanks,
Ken
September 13, 2004 11:33:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

> > Many years ago... I remember a couple Delphi tests (I and II) --
> > created by various people (Mike Kastberg, Ingo Warnke, Laurie
> > Cheers?). Has there been a Delphi test (or similar test) posted in
> > the last 4 or so years? Or is there any plans to create such a test?
>
> It seems that there is no new test (e.g., Delphi test III) recently.
> Ah well... Maybe it's time for some of us to create one :-). By the
> way, my posts seem to take over half a day to appear, so I apologize
> if this gets out after everyone has "left the building".

If anyone wants to do this, a while ago, I created a bunch of sample
questions already, based on discussions on this list. I could post
'em if y'all are interested.

Peter
Anonymous
September 13, 2004 8:26:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 12 Sep 2004 15:14:50 -0400, dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney)
wrote:

>Yes, this has changed, so:
>
>>And from that the correct answer should be C (right?).
>
>Right. Note that they psychically predicted what the correct answer now would
>be, just so they could include it back then as a wrong answer...

Yes, almost as if they were already planning to change the rules. :) 

BTW, going through the test I found one more answer that's wrong. Or
rather, the answer is right - the reason is just ½ wrong...

** Question **
31. Can you choose "Wizard Mentor" for Engineered Plague?

Engineered Plague (Enchantment): As Engineered Plague comes into play,
choose a creature type. All creatures of the chosen type get -1/-1.

a) Yes, "Wizard Mentor" is a legal creature type.
b) No, "Wizard Mentor" can't be chosen for Engineered Plague.
c) No, "Wizard Mentor" can't be chosen as a creature type for
Engineered Plague as it's a real Magic card, and you can't choose
Magic cards as creature types.

** Answer **
31b) No, "Wizard Mentor" can't be chosen for Engineered Plague
214.7a If a card instruction requires choosing a creature subtype,
this may be any noun (even if the creature doesn't exist in Magic),
but only one.
**

You still can't choose "Wizard Mentor" as a creature type, and it
still is true that a creature type is just a single word (thus, if
anything it should be Wizard-Mentor).
But the "this may be any noun" part is wrong. Today you are only
allowed to choose a creature type that has previously appeared on a
magic card (or actually on the Oracle version of a magic card).



Fun (psychic) fact: The old answer is B, the new answer is listed, and
has the letter C - this is true for both "wrong today" answers...!
*Ooooh* Spoooky *oooooh* <- scary ghost sounds


Ps. Those two were the only ones I found to have been wronged by time.

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann
!