Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)
Hi all,
I've a question regarding Imprint, and 502.34 does not seem to address it,
nor can I find any other rules that clearly apply.
In the case of Imprint cards that allow for a card to be cast without the
expense of mana, such as Isochron Scepter:
Imprint - When Isochron Scepter comes into play, you may remove an instant
card with converted mana cost 2 or less in your hand from the game. (The
removed card is imprinted on this artifact.)
2, TAP: You may copy the imprinted instant card and play the copy without
paying its mana cost.
How are mechanics such as Entwine handled in conjunction with Imprint?
502.32. Entwine
502.32a Entwine is a static ability that functions while the spell is on the
stack. The phrase "Entwine [cost]" means "You may choose to use all modes of
this spell instead of just one. If you do, you pay an additional [cost]."
Using the entwine ability follows the rules for choosing modes and paying
additional costs in rules 409.1b and 409.1f-h.
409.1b doesn't completely clear things up for me either, nor does 409.1f-h.
409.1b If the spell or ability is modal (uses the phrase "Choose one -" or
"[specified player] chooses one -"), the player announces the mode choice.
If the spell or ability has a variable mana cost (indicated by {oX}) or some
other variable cost, the player announces the value of that variable at this
time. If the spell or ability has alternative, additional, or other special
costs (such as buyback or kicker costs), the player announces his or her
intentions to pay any or all of those costs (see rule 409.1f). You can't
apply two alternative methods of playing or two alternative costs to a
single spell or ability. Previously made choices (such as choosing to play a
spell with flashback from his or her graveyard or choosing to play a
creature with morph face down) may restrict the player's options when making
these choices.
409.1f The player determines the total cost of the spell or ability. Usually
this is just the mana cost (for spells) or activation cost (for abilities).
Some cards list additional or alternative costs in their text, and some
effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay. Costs may include paying
mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so
on. The total cost is the mana cost, activation cost, or alternative cost,
plus all cost increases and minus all cost reductions. Once the total cost
is determined, it becomes "locked in." If effects would change the total
cost after this time, they have no effect.
409.1g If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a
chance to play mana abilities (see rule 411, "Playing Mana Abilities"). Mana
abilities must be played before costs are paid.
409.1h The player pays the total cost in any order. Partial payments are not
allowed.
Example: You play Death Bomb, which costs {o3}{oB} and has an additional
cost of sacrificing a creature. You sacrifice Thunderscape Familiar, whose
effect makes your black spells cost {o1} less to play. Because a spell's
total cost is "locked in" before payments are actually made, you pay
{o2}{oB}, not {o3}{oB}, even though you're sacrificing the Familiar.
===
Reading through these rules, it would appear that the Isochron Scepter
ability to "play the copy without paying its mana cost", using 'mana cost'
as defined in 409.1f ("The total cost is the _mana_cost_ (my emphasis) ,
activation cost, or alternative cost, plus all cost increases and minus all
cost reductions"), pays only for the 'mana cost' part of the Imprinted
spell. Any 'activation cost' (also referred to as an 'additional or
alternative cost') such as the cost for Entwine would need to be paid by the
player seperately from the TAP of the Isochron Scepter, if that activation
cost, additional cost, or alternative cost (thank you, WotC, for making that
all as clear as mud...) is even able to be paid in this case.
May a player Imprint a spell with Entwine on the Isochron Scepter, and then
pay 2, TAP the scepter for one of the abilities and also pay the Entwine
cost using lands or other mana sources?
Let's use Roar of the Kha as the example spell Imprinted on the Isochron
Scepter:
Instant 1W
Choose one - Creatures you control get +1/+1 until end of turn; or untap all
creatures you control.
Entwine 1W (Choose both if you pay the entwine cost.)
Were this card Imprinted on the Isochron Scepter, could the owning player
pay 2, TAP the Isochron Scepter and also pay 1W to use both abilities of
Roar of the Kha?
409.1g ("If the _total_cost_ (my emphasis) includes a mana payment, the
player then has a chance to play mana abilities ") would seem to support
this line of reasoning, but I would greatly appreciate any clarification.
--
Cheers,
Ken
Hi all,
I've a question regarding Imprint, and 502.34 does not seem to address it,
nor can I find any other rules that clearly apply.
In the case of Imprint cards that allow for a card to be cast without the
expense of mana, such as Isochron Scepter:
Imprint - When Isochron Scepter comes into play, you may remove an instant
card with converted mana cost 2 or less in your hand from the game. (The
removed card is imprinted on this artifact.)
2, TAP: You may copy the imprinted instant card and play the copy without
paying its mana cost.
How are mechanics such as Entwine handled in conjunction with Imprint?
502.32. Entwine
502.32a Entwine is a static ability that functions while the spell is on the
stack. The phrase "Entwine [cost]" means "You may choose to use all modes of
this spell instead of just one. If you do, you pay an additional [cost]."
Using the entwine ability follows the rules for choosing modes and paying
additional costs in rules 409.1b and 409.1f-h.
409.1b doesn't completely clear things up for me either, nor does 409.1f-h.
409.1b If the spell or ability is modal (uses the phrase "Choose one -" or
"[specified player] chooses one -"), the player announces the mode choice.
If the spell or ability has a variable mana cost (indicated by {oX}) or some
other variable cost, the player announces the value of that variable at this
time. If the spell or ability has alternative, additional, or other special
costs (such as buyback or kicker costs), the player announces his or her
intentions to pay any or all of those costs (see rule 409.1f). You can't
apply two alternative methods of playing or two alternative costs to a
single spell or ability. Previously made choices (such as choosing to play a
spell with flashback from his or her graveyard or choosing to play a
creature with morph face down) may restrict the player's options when making
these choices.
409.1f The player determines the total cost of the spell or ability. Usually
this is just the mana cost (for spells) or activation cost (for abilities).
Some cards list additional or alternative costs in their text, and some
effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay. Costs may include paying
mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so
on. The total cost is the mana cost, activation cost, or alternative cost,
plus all cost increases and minus all cost reductions. Once the total cost
is determined, it becomes "locked in." If effects would change the total
cost after this time, they have no effect.
409.1g If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a
chance to play mana abilities (see rule 411, "Playing Mana Abilities"). Mana
abilities must be played before costs are paid.
409.1h The player pays the total cost in any order. Partial payments are not
allowed.
Example: You play Death Bomb, which costs {o3}{oB} and has an additional
cost of sacrificing a creature. You sacrifice Thunderscape Familiar, whose
effect makes your black spells cost {o1} less to play. Because a spell's
total cost is "locked in" before payments are actually made, you pay
{o2}{oB}, not {o3}{oB}, even though you're sacrificing the Familiar.
===
Reading through these rules, it would appear that the Isochron Scepter
ability to "play the copy without paying its mana cost", using 'mana cost'
as defined in 409.1f ("The total cost is the _mana_cost_ (my emphasis) ,
activation cost, or alternative cost, plus all cost increases and minus all
cost reductions"), pays only for the 'mana cost' part of the Imprinted
spell. Any 'activation cost' (also referred to as an 'additional or
alternative cost') such as the cost for Entwine would need to be paid by the
player seperately from the TAP of the Isochron Scepter, if that activation
cost, additional cost, or alternative cost (thank you, WotC, for making that
all as clear as mud...) is even able to be paid in this case.
May a player Imprint a spell with Entwine on the Isochron Scepter, and then
pay 2, TAP the scepter for one of the abilities and also pay the Entwine
cost using lands or other mana sources?
Let's use Roar of the Kha as the example spell Imprinted on the Isochron
Scepter:
Instant 1W
Choose one - Creatures you control get +1/+1 until end of turn; or untap all
creatures you control.
Entwine 1W (Choose both if you pay the entwine cost.)
Were this card Imprinted on the Isochron Scepter, could the owning player
pay 2, TAP the Isochron Scepter and also pay 1W to use both abilities of
Roar of the Kha?
409.1g ("If the _total_cost_ (my emphasis) includes a mana payment, the
player then has a chance to play mana abilities ") would seem to support
this line of reasoning, but I would greatly appreciate any clarification.
--
Cheers,
Ken