Imprint and casting cost / Entwine

Oberon

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Apr 9, 2004
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Hi all,

I've a question regarding Imprint, and 502.34 does not seem to address it,
nor can I find any other rules that clearly apply.

In the case of Imprint cards that allow for a card to be cast without the
expense of mana, such as Isochron Scepter:

Imprint - When Isochron Scepter comes into play, you may remove an instant
card with converted mana cost 2 or less in your hand from the game. (The
removed card is imprinted on this artifact.)
2, TAP: You may copy the imprinted instant card and play the copy without
paying its mana cost.

How are mechanics such as Entwine handled in conjunction with Imprint?

502.32. Entwine
502.32a Entwine is a static ability that functions while the spell is on the
stack. The phrase "Entwine [cost]" means "You may choose to use all modes of
this spell instead of just one. If you do, you pay an additional [cost]."
Using the entwine ability follows the rules for choosing modes and paying
additional costs in rules 409.1b and 409.1f-h.

409.1b doesn't completely clear things up for me either, nor does 409.1f-h.

409.1b If the spell or ability is modal (uses the phrase "Choose one -" or
"[specified player] chooses one -"), the player announces the mode choice.
If the spell or ability has a variable mana cost (indicated by {oX}) or some
other variable cost, the player announces the value of that variable at this
time. If the spell or ability has alternative, additional, or other special
costs (such as buyback or kicker costs), the player announces his or her
intentions to pay any or all of those costs (see rule 409.1f). You can't
apply two alternative methods of playing or two alternative costs to a
single spell or ability. Previously made choices (such as choosing to play a
spell with flashback from his or her graveyard or choosing to play a
creature with morph face down) may restrict the player's options when making
these choices.
409.1f The player determines the total cost of the spell or ability. Usually
this is just the mana cost (for spells) or activation cost (for abilities).
Some cards list additional or alternative costs in their text, and some
effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay. Costs may include paying
mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so
on. The total cost is the mana cost, activation cost, or alternative cost,
plus all cost increases and minus all cost reductions. Once the total cost
is determined, it becomes "locked in." If effects would change the total
cost after this time, they have no effect.
409.1g If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a
chance to play mana abilities (see rule 411, "Playing Mana Abilities"). Mana
abilities must be played before costs are paid.
409.1h The player pays the total cost in any order. Partial payments are not
allowed.
Example: You play Death Bomb, which costs {o3}{oB} and has an additional
cost of sacrificing a creature. You sacrifice Thunderscape Familiar, whose
effect makes your black spells cost {o1} less to play. Because a spell's
total cost is "locked in" before payments are actually made, you pay
{o2}{oB}, not {o3}{oB}, even though you're sacrificing the Familiar.
===

Reading through these rules, it would appear that the Isochron Scepter
ability to "play the copy without paying its mana cost", using 'mana cost'
as defined in 409.1f ("The total cost is the _mana_cost_ (my emphasis) ,
activation cost, or alternative cost, plus all cost increases and minus all
cost reductions"), pays only for the 'mana cost' part of the Imprinted
spell. Any 'activation cost' (also referred to as an 'additional or
alternative cost') such as the cost for Entwine would need to be paid by the
player seperately from the TAP of the Isochron Scepter, if that activation
cost, additional cost, or alternative cost (thank you, WotC, for making that
all as clear as mud...) is even able to be paid in this case.

May a player Imprint a spell with Entwine on the Isochron Scepter, and then
pay 2, TAP the scepter for one of the abilities and also pay the Entwine
cost using lands or other mana sources?
Let's use Roar of the Kha as the example spell Imprinted on the Isochron
Scepter:

Instant 1W
Choose one - Creatures you control get +1/+1 until end of turn; or untap all
creatures you control.
Entwine 1W (Choose both if you pay the entwine cost.)

Were this card Imprinted on the Isochron Scepter, could the owning player
pay 2, TAP the Isochron Scepter and also pay 1W to use both abilities of
Roar of the Kha?

409.1g ("If the _total_cost_ (my emphasis) includes a mana payment, the
player then has a chance to play mana abilities ") would seem to support
this line of reasoning, but I would greatly appreciate any clarification.


--
Cheers,
Ken
 
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Oberon <friend@public.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I've a question regarding Imprint, and 502.34 does not seem to address it,
> nor can I find any other rules that clearly apply.
>
> In the case of Imprint cards that allow for a card to be cast without the
> expense of mana, such as Isochron Scepter:
>
> Imprint - When Isochron Scepter comes into play, you may remove an instant
> card with converted mana cost 2 or less in your hand from the game. (The
> removed card is imprinted on this artifact.)
> 2, TAP: You may copy the imprinted instant card and play the copy without
> paying its mana cost.
>
> How are mechanics such as Entwine handled in conjunction with Imprint?

There is nothing special about Imprint here, so I wouldn't expect to
find anything relevant in 502.34. Consider Reversal of Fortune and
Temporal Aperture:

Reversal of Fortune
{4}{R}{R}
Sorcery
Target opponent reveals his or her hand. You may copy an instant or
sorcery card in it and play the copy without paying its mana cost.

Temporal Aperture
{2}
Artifact
{5}, {T}: Shuffle your library and reveal the top card. Until end of
turn, as long as that card remains on top of your library, you may play
the card as though it were in your hand without paying its mana cost.
(If it has {X} in its mana cost, X is 0.)

The "without paying its mana cost" is an alternative cost:

Alternative Cost
The rules text of some spells reads, "You may [action] rather than pay
[this object's] mana cost," or include the phrase, "you may play [this
object] without paying its mana cost." These are alternative costs. Only
one such alternative cost can be applied to any one spell. Other spells
and abilities that refer to a spell's mana cost don't consider the
alternative cost. If an effect requires paying additional costs to play
a spell, it still applies to the alternative cost. See rule 409,
"Playing Spells and Activated Abilities."

> Reading through these rules, it would appear that the Isochron Scepter
> ability to "play the copy without paying its mana cost", using 'mana cost'
> as defined in 409.1f ("The total cost is the _mana_cost_ (my emphasis) ,
> activation cost, or alternative cost, plus all cost increases and minus all
> cost reductions"),

Mana cost is not defined in 409.1f. Mana cost is defined in 203.1.

203.1. The mana cost of a card is indicated by mana symbols printed on
its upper right corner. Tokens and lands have a mana cost of {o0} unless
otherwise specified. Paying an object's mana cost requires matching the
color of any colored mana symbols as well as paying the generic mana
cost indicated.

> pays only for the 'mana cost' part of the Imprinted
> spell.

Right, an alternative cost replaces *only* the mana cost.

> Any 'activation cost' (also referred to as an 'additional or
> alternative cost') such as the cost for Entwine

The cost for Entwine is not an activation cost. Only activated
abilities have activation costs. It is also not an alternative cost.
Rule 502.32 clearly identifies it as an additional cost.

Activation Cost
The activation cost of an activated ability is everything before the
colon in "activation cost: effect." It must be paid to play the ability.
See rule 403, "Activated Abilities."
Example: The activation cost of an ability that reads "{o2}, {oT}: You
gain 1 life" is two mana of any color plus tapping the permanent.

The only reason activation cost is mentioned in 409.1f is that rule 409
is about playing spells AND ACTIVATED ABILITIES.

Using the entwine ability follows the rules for choosing modes and
paying ADDITIONAL costs in rules 409.1b and 409.1f-h.

> would need to be paid by the
> player seperately from the TAP of the Isochron Scepter, if that activation
> cost, additional cost, or alternative cost (thank you, WotC, for making that
> all as clear as mud...) is even able to be paid in this case.

> May a player Imprint a spell with Entwine on the Isochron Scepter, and then
> pay 2, TAP the scepter for one of the abilities and also pay the Entwine
> cost using lands or other mana sources?

Isochron Scepter's {2}, {T} is as irrelevant as Temporal Aperture's {5},
{T} or Reversal of Fortune's {4}{R}{R} (or tapping an Archivist to get
the card into your hand in the first place).

> Let's use Roar of the Kha as the example spell Imprinted on the Isochron
> Scepter:
>
> Instant 1W
> Choose one - Creatures you control get +1/+1 until end of turn; or untap all
> creatures you control.
> Entwine 1W (Choose both if you pay the entwine cost.)
>
> Were this card Imprinted on the Isochron Scepter, could the owning player
> pay 2, TAP the Isochron Scepter and also pay 1W to use both abilities of
> Roar of the Kha?

When the Isochron Scepter's activated ability resolves, you can copy the
Roar of the Kha and play the copy. You go through 409.1's steps in
order:

409.1a: The copy of Roar of the Kha goes on the stack.
409.1b: You announce the ADDITIONAL cost of Entwine (making a mode
choice moot) and point out that the previously made choice of using the
Isochron Scepter's ability forces the ALTERNATIVE cost of not paying the
mana cost at all.
409.1c: No targets.
409.1d: No targets.
409.1e: No targets or distribution.
409.1f: The alternative cost (of nothing) and the additional cost (of
{1}{W}) give you a total cost of {1}{W}.
409.1g: You can play mana abilities now, even if you already had {1}{W}
in your mana pool.
409.1h: And now you pay the total cost.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
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On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 03:33:41 GMT, Oberon wrote:

>Reading through these rules, it would appear that the Isochron Scepter
>ability to "play the copy without paying its mana cost", using 'mana cost'
>as defined in 409.1f ("The total cost is the _mana_cost_ (my emphasis) ,
>activation cost, or alternative cost, plus all cost increases and minus all
>cost reductions"), pays only for the 'mana cost' part of the Imprinted
>spell.

Correct. You may play the imprinted spell without paying for the cost
that's printed in that spell card's upper right corner. All other costs
(like the entwine cost) still need to be paid in full.

>Any 'activation cost' (also referred to as an 'additional or
>alternative cost') such as the cost for Entwine would need to be paid by the
>player seperately from the TAP of the Isochron Scepter, if that activation
>cost, additional cost, or alternative cost (thank you, WotC, for making that
>all as clear as mud...) is even able to be paid in this case.

(They aren't 'activation costs'; those are printed in front of the
colons of activated abilities.) But yes, you can pay the extra
Entwine/Kicker/... costs.

>May a player Imprint a spell with Entwine on the Isochron Scepter, and then
>pay 2, TAP the scepter for one of the abilities and also pay the Entwine
>cost using lands or other mana sources?

Yes.

>Let's use Roar of the Kha as the example spell Imprinted on the Isochron
>Scepter:
>
>Instant 1W
>Choose one - Creatures you control get +1/+1 until end of turn; or untap all
>creatures you control.
>Entwine 1W (Choose both if you pay the entwine cost.)
>
>Were this card Imprinted on the Isochron Scepter, could the owning player
>pay 2, TAP the Isochron Scepter and also pay 1W to use both abilities of
>Roar of the Kha?

First he/she plays the activated ability of Isochron Scepter. When that
resolves, he may _then_ pay 1W to play Roar of the Kha with Entwine. The
"2, T" of Isochron Scepter's ability don't become part of the imprinted
spell's playing cost.
(And Roar of the Kha doesn't have "abilities". The spell's effect will
do one or two things, depending on how you played it.)

Ingo Kemper
--
__ _ __ __ __ __
__/ /_/ \/ /_/____/_ |___magic@iengeo.de___---===> \
/_/ /_/\_/ |__/ |__/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---===>__/
 
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Oberon <friend@public.com> wrote:
>I've a question regarding Imprint, and 502.34 does not seem to address it,
>nor can I find any other rules that clearly apply.
>
>In the case of Imprint cards that allow for a card to be cast without the
>expense of mana, such as Isochron Scepter:

this works like any other effet that lets you cast a spell without paying
its mana cost: this is an alternative cost; no other alternative cost can
also be used; additional costs must still be paid if any; and any X (or Y or Z)
in the mana cost MUST be 0.

>How are mechanics such as Entwine handled in conjunction with Imprint?

Entwine lets you choose two modes at once, and provides an additional cost
if you do. This means you can still Entwine a "free spell" but you have to
still pay the additional cost if you do.

>409.1b doesn't completely clear things up for me either, nor does 409.1f-h.

Try the Glossary entry for "Alternative Cost" and see if that helps. The
key here is that "without paying its mana cost" is just as much an alternative
cost as "pay 3 rather than paying its mana cost".

>Reading through these rules, it would appear that the Isochron Scepter
>ability to "play the copy without paying its mana cost", using 'mana cost'
>as defined in 409.1f ("The total cost is the _mana_cost_ (my emphasis) ,
>activation cost, or alternative cost, plus all cost increases and minus all
>cost reductions"), pays only for the 'mana cost' part of the Imprinted
>spell. Any 'activation cost' (also referred to as an 'additional or
>alternative cost') such as the cost for Entwine would need to be paid by the
>player seperately from the TAP of the Isochron Scepter, if that activation
>cost, additional cost, or alternative cost (thank you, WotC, for making that
>all as clear as mud...) is even able to be paid in this case.

Activated abilities have activation costs; spells have mana costs. Both can
have additional or alternative costs. As you note, "without paying its mana
cost" only applies to the mana cost, and yes, you'd still have to pay the
Entwine additional cost.

>May a player Imprint a spell with Entwine on the Isochron Scepter, and then
>pay 2, TAP the scepter for one of the abilities and also pay the Entwine
>cost using lands or other mana sources?

Yes. Note that you pay the 2,Tap on announcement of the Scepter ability...
but pay the Entwine cost later, during the resolution of the Scepter ability
and the announcement of the -spell copy- it makes.

>Were this card Imprinted on the Isochron Scepter, could the owning player
>pay 2, TAP the Isochron Scepter and also pay 1W to use both abilities of
>Roar of the Kha?

Both "modes". Yes. Pay 2 and tap the Scepter on announcement of its ability.
on resolution of its ability you may make a copy of the Roar which you can play
without paying its mana cost; you're still allowed to choose either mode, or
because of the Entwine to choose both modes; if you choose both modes there's
an additional cost of 1W which still needs to be paid at that time.

Dave
--
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