Tangle Asp and multiple blockers

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

I had Nemesis Mask on a Tangle Asp resulting in my opponents 2 creatures blocking the Asp. He
said that his creatures wouldn't be destroyed because the Asp says, "... blocked by a creature"
which he interpreted to mean only one. I suppose the wording is ambiguous but I think it is
that it is just refering to a creature blocking the Asp and that could be each of several
creatures blocking the Asp otherwise I suspect that the card would have been worded explicitly.

Am I right? If so how do I explain this wording to my opponent. If I'm wrong is it for the
reason he gave?

Thanks,

Nelf

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 05:26:14 -0000, Nelf <nelf@nolo.net> wrote:
>I had Nemesis Mask on a Tangle Asp resulting in my opponents 2 creatures
>blocking the Asp. He
>said that his creatures wouldn't be destroyed because the Asp says, "...
>blocked by a creature"
>which he interpreted to mean only one. I suppose the wording is ambiguous but
>I think it is
>that it is just refering to a creature blocking the Asp and that could be each
>of several
>creatures blocking the Asp otherwise I suspect that the card would have been
>worded explicitly.

(80-column text is your friend.)

Tangle Asp 1G Creature - Snake
1/2 Whenever ~ blocks or becomes blocked by a creature, destroy that creature
at end of combat.

This triggers once for each blocker or blockee of the Asp.

>Am I right? If so how do I explain this wording to my opponent. If I'm wrong
>is it for the
>reason he gave?

This is a triggered ability; its trigger condition can trigger several times
off of one blocking declaration (either because the Asp is blocked by several
creatures, or because the Asp is blocking an attacking band of creatures). It
triggers once for each creature, and each instance goes on the stack (all at
the same time, the Asp's controller chooses the order), resolves separately,
and sets up a separate delayed triggered ability that later destroys a separate
one of the creatures the Asp is fighting.

If they meant it to only trigger once and destroy only ONE creature, it would
be worded "Whenever ~ blocks or becomes blocked by one or more creatures,
destroy one of those creatures at end of combat". If they meant it to only
trigger if ONE creature was blocking/blocked by the Asp, it would say "Whenever
~ blocks or becomes blocked by exactly one creature, destroy that...".

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

You are right.

here is the rule:

410.9b An ability that reads “Whenever [this creature] blocks a
creature” triggers once for each attacking creature the named creature
blocks.


Nelf wrote:
> I had Nemesis Mask on a Tangle Asp resulting in my opponents 2 creatures blocking the Asp. He
> said that his creatures wouldn't be destroyed because the Asp says, "... blocked by a creature"
> which he interpreted to mean only one. I suppose the wording is ambiguous but I think it is
> that it is just refering to a creature blocking the Asp and that could be each of several
> creatures blocking the Asp otherwise I suspect that the card would have been worded explicitly.
>
> Am I right? If so how do I explain this wording to my opponent. If I'm wrong is it for the
> reason he gave?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nelf

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 02:15:03 -0400, Carl Joly <palomides@videotron.ca>
wrote:

>You are right.
>
>here is the rule:
>
>410.9b An ability that reads “Whenever [this creature] blocks a
>creature” triggers once for each attacking creature the named creature
>blocks.
>
>
>Nelf wrote:
>> I had Nemesis Mask on a Tangle Asp resulting in my opponents 2 creatures blocking the Asp. He
>> said that his creatures wouldn't be destroyed because the Asp says, "... blocked by a creature"

Question: How else would something be blocked? Is it not redundant to
say "blocked by a creature?" As opposed to blocked by ... what?

How would this ability be different if it was instead worded "At end
of combat, destroy any creature which blocked or was blocked by Tangle
Asp this turn"?

What if something changed from a creature to a non-creature during
combat but before end of combat? (I'm thinking, for instance, of
something like a reverse of Darksteel Brute. There may not be such a
creature in all of Magic. At least not yet...) Would it still be
destroyed?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Mark Landin <mark.landin@tdwilliamson.com> wrote:

> Question: How else would something be blocked? Is it not redundant to
> say "blocked by a creature?" As opposed to blocked by ... what?

Dazzling Beauty
{2}{W}
Instant
Play Dazzling Beauty only during the declare blockers step.
Target unblocked attacking creature becomes blocked. (This ability works
on unblockable creatures.)
Draw a card at the beginning of the next turn's upkeep.

> How would this ability be different if it was instead worded "At end
> of combat, destroy any creature which blocked or was blocked by Tangle
> Asp this turn"?

It wouldn't work unless the Tangle Asp survived to the end of combat.

> What if something changed from a creature to a non-creature during
> combat but before end of combat? (I'm thinking, for instance, of
> something like a reverse of Darksteel Brute. There may not be such a
> creature in all of Magic. At least not yet...) Would it still be
> destroyed?

Yes.

404.4c A delayed triggered ability that refers to a particular object
still affects it even if the object changes characteristics.
Example: An ability that reads "At end of turn, destroy that creature"
will destroy the permanent even if it's no longer a creature during the
end of turn step.

--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Mark Landin wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 02:15:03 -0400, Carl Joly <palomides@videotron.ca>
> wrote:
>
>
>>You are right.
>>
>>here is the rule:
>>
>>410.9b An ability that reads “Whenever [this creature] blocks a
>>creature” triggers once for each attacking creature the named creature
>>blocks.
>>
>>
>>Nelf wrote:
>>
>>>I had Nemesis Mask on a Tangle Asp resulting in my opponents 2 creatures blocking the Asp. He
>>>said that his creatures wouldn't be destroyed because the Asp says, "... blocked by a creature"
>
>
> Question: How else would something be blocked? Is it not redundant to
> say "blocked by a creature?" As opposed to blocked by ... what?
>
> How would this ability be different if it was instead worded "At end
> of combat, destroy any creature which blocked or was blocked by Tangle
> Asp this turn"?
>
> What if something changed from a creature to a non-creature during
> combat but before end of combat? (I'm thinking, for instance, of
> something like a reverse of Darksteel Brute. There may not be such a
> creature in all of Magic. At least not yet...) Would it still be
> destroyed?

Yes!

404.4c A delayed triggered ability that refers to a particular object
still affects it even if the object changes characteristics.
Example: An ability that reads “At end of turn, destroy that creature”
will destroy the permanent even if it’s no longer a creature during the
end of turn step.




>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Mark Landin <mark.landin@tdwilliamson.com> wrote:
>Question: How else would something be blocked? Is it not redundant to
>say "blocked by a creature?" As opposed to blocked by ... what?

By the effect of a spell or ability: False Orders/Dazzling Beauty/Choking Vines
and Trap Runner are respective examples.

>How would this ability be different if it was instead worded "At end
>of combat, destroy any creature which blocked or was blocked by Tangle
>Asp this turn"?

That wouldn't +trigger+ until end of combat, so would need the Asp to _not
have been killed by combat damage_ (and otherwise not to have left play) to
trigger. The Asp's actual wording triggers off _declaring blockers_, and makes
a delayed triggered ability which floats around until end-of-combat step,
independent of the Asp, then triggers; the Asp itself need not still be
around at that time.

>What if something changed from a creature to a non-creature during
>combat but before end of combat?

It still gets destroyed by the Asp ability; 404.4c covers this.

>(I'm thinking, for instance, of
>something like a reverse of Darksteel Brute. There may not be such a
>creature in all of Magic. At least not yet...) Would it still be
>destroyed?

Yes; the delayed triggered ability doesn't actually care whether "that
creature" is STILL a creature or not. "That creature" is a placeholder, like
"the creature" or "this creature", referring back to the previous mention
of something in the card text that was denoted as a creature. (In this case,
it refers back to "blocks or becomes blocked by a creature"; the permanent
had to be a creature in order to block, but doesn't still have to be a
creature later on for TA's delayed triggered ability to destroy it.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.