Sensei Golden-Tail and Takeno, Samurai General

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Sensei Golden-Tail
1W
Legendary Creature - Fox Samurai
2/1
Bushido 1 (When this blocks or becomes blocked, it gets +1/+1 until
end of turn.)
1W, T: Put a training counter on target creature. That creature gains
bushido 1 and becomes a Samurai in addition to its other creature
types. Play this ability only any time you could play a sorcery.

Takeno, Samurai General
5W
Legendary Creature - Human Samurai
3/3
Bushido 2 (When this blocks or becomes blocked, it gets +2/+2 until
end of turn.)
Each other Samurai you control gets +1/+1 for each point of bushido it
has.

This is a little confusing to me. Bushido is not cumulative, per se,
it seems. Instead, Sensei gives a creature Bushido 1, so if he gives
it multiple times, the creature will have two (or more) instances or
Bushido instead of Bushido 2 or what have you.

My question is, if a creature has two instances of Bushido 1, does he
get +1/+1 or +2/+2 with Takeno in play?

Thanks,

Rick

 

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Rick Kunkel <NOSPAM-kunkel@w-link.net> wrote:
>Sensei Golden-Tail >1W >Legendary Creature - Fox Samurai
>2/1 Bushido 1 (*)
>1W, T: Put a training counter on target creature. That creature gains
>bushido 1 and becomes a Samurai in addition to its other creature
>types. Play this ability only any time you could play a sorcery.

(As the FAQ notes, the counter's essentially there for decoration only... it
doesn't actually DO anything, or get referred to by other things.)

>Takeno, Samurai General >5W >Legendary Creature - Human Samurai
>3/3 Bushido 2 (*)
>Each other Samurai you control gets +1/+1 for each point of bushido it has.

Bushido is cumulative in essence; each bushido a creature has will trigger
separately, and resolve separately, making them end up with the sum total of
all of them as bonuses. Takeno will count bushido given by Sensei Golden-Tail
along with any other bushido.

>This is a little confusing to me. Bushido is not cumulative, per se,
>it seems. Instead, Sensei gives a creature Bushido 1, so if he gives
>it multiple times, the creature will have two (or more) instances or
>Bushido instead of Bushido 2 or what have you.

Yes. Takeno does not count "instances of bushido", though - it doesn't count
how many TIMES the creature has bushido. It counts how many _points_ of
bushido the creature has; Takeno himself has two points of bushido in his
one natural instance of bushido, for example. If Sensei trained Takeno three
times, Takeno would now have five points of bushido (and four instances of
the ability), and when he attacked or blocked would have four triggered
abilities trigger and would end up, after they all resolved, with +5/+5.

>My question is, if a creature has two instances of Bushido 1, does he
>get +1/+1 or +2/+2 with Takeno in play?

He gets +2/+2, because he has two points of Bushido - 1 + 1 = 2.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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On Mon, 18 Oct 2004, Rick Kunkel wrote:

> My question is, if a creature has two instances of Bushido 1, does he
> get +1/+1 or +2/+2 with Takeno in play?

+2/+2

>
> Thanks,

You're welcome
--

David

 

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On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:37:31 -0700, Rick Kunkel
<NOSPAM-kunkel@w-link.net> wrote:

>Sensei Golden-Tail
>1W
>Legendary Creature - Fox Samurai
>2/1
>Bushido 1 (When this blocks or becomes blocked, it gets +1/+1 until
>end of turn.)
>1W, T: Put a training counter on target creature. That creature gains
>bushido 1 and becomes a Samurai in addition to its other creature
>types. Play this ability only any time you could play a sorcery.
>
>Takeno, Samurai General
>5W
>Legendary Creature - Human Samurai
>3/3
>Bushido 2 (When this blocks or becomes blocked, it gets +2/+2 until
>end of turn.)
>Each other Samurai you control gets +1/+1 for each point of bushido it
>has.
>
>This is a little confusing to me. Bushido is not cumulative, per se,
>it seems. Instead, Sensei gives a creature Bushido 1, so if he gives
>it multiple times, the creature will have two (or more) instances or
>Bushido instead of Bushido 2 or what have you.

Well, it's just as cumulative as +1/+1 counters - putting two of those
on a creature won't make them into one +2/+2 counter, but in most
cases there is no difference...
Remember though, Archbound creatures and Dismantle says: "Don't do
this kind of counter math!"

>My question is, if a creature has two instances of Bushido 1, does he
>get +1/+1 or +2/+2 with Takeno in play?

Takendo gives +1/+1 for each _point_, not instance, of bushido, so a
creature with "Bushido 1, Bushido 1, Bushido 3" would get +5/+5 from
Takendo (if that creature is a samurai, and you control both it and
Takendo, of course).

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann

 

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David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:

> (As the FAQ notes, the counter's essentially there for decoration only... it
> doesn't actually DO anything, or get referred to by other things.)

Kinda like the mask counters from the Oracle text for Illusionary Mask.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Daniel W. Johnson, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
>
> > (As the FAQ notes, the counter's essentially there for decoration only... it
> > doesn't actually DO anything, or get referred to by other things.)
>
> Kinda like the mask counters from the Oracle text for Illusionary Mask.

Essentially, they're there to make it clear to all players which
creatures have Bushido from Golden-Tail. This might get hard to keep
track of otherwise, in some instances. (For related reasons, no creature
with Kicker *just* got a new keyword ability by paying the kicker cost;
there were always +1/+1 counters involved. R&D really thinks this stuff
through, at least in some instances.)

--
Let's not let this drift into a topic about playing your alignment. I
have too much to do to be able to properly ridicule and post whore.
- Rob Singers

 

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Daniel W. Johnson <panoptes@iquest.net> wrote:
>David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
>> (As the FAQ notes, the counter's essentially there for decoration only... it
>> doesn't actually DO anything, or get referred to by other things.)
>
>Kinda like the mask counters from the Oracle text for Illusionary Mask.

No, even more decorative than those: you have to take the mask counters off
to turn the Masked creature face-up. The training counters just sit there -
they aren't what's giving the bushido, that's a separate part of the effect.
If you cast AEther Snap ... hmmm, Gatherer/Oracle Error Detected, lemme
write in about it: ...okay, they've fixed that error - the file I got from
10/5 didn't have any of the AE-starting cards in it, while the file that's
there now does - but I put the other problems to them, the il-Dal/en-Dal/en-Vec
/il-Vec/en-Kor stuff and the nonASCII characters and the extra spaces at the
ends of lines ... anyway, let me start again:

If you cast AEther Snap and it removes the training counters, the trained
creature still has its bushido. Whereas the Masked creature now is supposed to
have no real way to turn face-up any more... but due to the current card
wording you can still do so, by removing "all mask counters" (== 0) from it.

So sorta like them, but slightly more useless if such a thing is possible.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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On 19 Oct 2004 07:28:39 -0400, dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney)
wrote:

>Rick Kunkel <NOSPAM-kunkel@w-link.net> wrote:
>>Sensei Golden-Tail >1W >Legendary Creature - Fox Samurai
>>2/1 Bushido 1 (*)
>>1W, T: Put a training counter on target creature. That creature gains
>>bushido 1 and becomes a Samurai in addition to its other creature
>>types. Play this ability only any time you could play a sorcery.
>
>(As the FAQ notes, the counter's essentially there for decoration only... it
>doesn't actually DO anything, or get referred to by other things.)
>
>>Takeno, Samurai General >5W >Legendary Creature - Human Samurai
>>3/3 Bushido 2 (*)
>>Each other Samurai you control gets +1/+1 for each point of bushido it has.
>
>Bushido is cumulative in essence; each bushido a creature has will trigger
>separately, and resolve separately, making them end up with the sum total of
>all of them as bonuses. Takeno will count bushido given by Sensei Golden-Tail
>along with any other bushido.
>
>>This is a little confusing to me. Bushido is not cumulative, per se,
>>it seems. Instead, Sensei gives a creature Bushido 1, so if he gives
>>it multiple times, the creature will have two (or more) instances or
>>Bushido instead of Bushido 2 or what have you.
>
>Yes. Takeno does not count "instances of bushido", though - it doesn't count
>how many TIMES the creature has bushido. It counts how many _points_ of
>bushido the creature has; Takeno himself has two points of bushido in his
>one natural instance of bushido, for example. If Sensei trained Takeno three
>times, Takeno would now have five points of bushido (and four instances of
>the ability), and when he attacked or blocked would have four triggered
>abilities trigger and would end up, after they all resolved, with +5/+5.
>
>>My question is, if a creature has two instances of Bushido 1, does he
>>get +1/+1 or +2/+2 with Takeno in play?
>
>He gets +2/+2, because he has two points of Bushido - 1 + 1 = 2.
>
>Dave

Just to clarify my original misunderstanding of the card:

I didn't really think that Sensei gave a bonus for each instance of
Bushido, but I thought that perhaps he might only give a bonus for...
hmm... how can I describe it? ... the "degree" of Bushido maybe. In
other words, if a creature had Bushido 2, I was clear on Takeno giving
it +2/+2. But I thought that maybe if a creature had two instances of
Bushido 1, it might only get +1/+1, because the most it's got is
Bushido 1. Or, in another example, if a creature had Bushido 3 and
Bushido 1, I thought it might get only +3/+3.

I figured that probably WASN'T the case, but I've definitely played
stuff wrong before, and wanted to double-check.

I think the confusion for me revolved around the (as far as I'm aware
of it) undefined term "point", as in "point of Bushido". I imagine
then that we could have "points of flanking" and "points of rampage"
(despite the fact that these abilities are no longer used), and
"points of soulshift", right? Sounds silly I know, but I like
nitpicking...

Rick

 

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Rick Kunkel <NOSPAM-kunkel@w-link.net> wrote:
>>Yes. Takeno does not count "instances of bushido", though - it doesn't count
>>how many TIMES the creature has bushido. It counts how many _points_ of
>>bushido the creature has; Takeno himself has two points of bushido in his
>>one natural instance of bushido, for example. If Sensei trained Takeno three
>>times, Takeno would now have five points of bushido (and four instances of
>>the ability), and when he attacked or blocked would have four triggered
>>abilities trigger and would end up, after they all resolved, with +5/+5.
>
>Just to clarify my original misunderstanding of the card:
>
>I didn't really think that Sensei gave a bonus for each instance of
>Bushido, but I thought that perhaps he might only give a bonus for...
>hmm... how can I describe it? ... the "degree" of Bushido maybe. In
>other words, if a creature had Bushido 2, I was clear on Takeno giving
>it +2/+2. But I thought that maybe if a creature had two instances of
>Bushido 1, it might only get +1/+1, because the most it's got is
>Bushido 1. Or, in another example, if a creature had Bushido 3 and
>Bushido 1, I thought it might get only +3/+3.

Oh, okay, that's yet a different misconception than I thought.

>I think the confusion for me revolved around the (as far as I'm aware
>of it) undefined term "point", as in "point of Bushido". I imagine
>then that we could have "points of flanking" and "points of rampage"
>(despite the fact that these abilities are no longer used), and
>"points of soulshift", right? Sounds silly I know, but I like nitpicking...

Probably we could, if anything wanted to look for them. I do know they hunted
a bit for a term to use to describe this, since it wasn't anything we'd
actually tried to describe before... And of course "points of power / life /
toughness" are easy to conceive of but usually get described differently.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.