Effect of +1/+1 and -1/-1 at the same time

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Can someone help me with the resolution of the following cards in play as I
play a new creature:

Situation:
Night of Soul's Betrayal in play (all creatures get -1/-1)
Long-Forgotten Gohei (Artifact; +1/+1 for all spirits)

I play a Hana Kami (1/1 Spirit Creature)

Do the two effects take place at the same time, negating each other?
Or doesthe Hana Kami die as it comes into play? I'm guessing the former,
but just not sure how the stack would work in this situation.

thanks,
K

--
In vino veritas
http://openwine.net

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"Kevin" <Kevin@astroturfgarden.com> wrote in message
news:slrncnb0qc.4he.Kevin@bacall.astroturfgarden.com...
> Can someone help me with the resolution of the following cards in play as
I
> play a new creature:
>
> Situation:
> Night of Soul's Betrayal in play (all creatures get -1/-1)
> Long-Forgotten Gohei (Artifact; +1/+1 for all spirits)
>
> I play a Hana Kami (1/1 Spirit Creature)
>
> Do the two effects take place at the same time, negating each other?
> Or doesthe Hana Kami die as it comes into play? I'm guessing the former,
> but just not sure how the stack would work in this situation.

AFAIK, the Hana Kami won't die. This is because, no matter which order the
effects are applied, no one gets priority between them "activating" (they're
not activated abilities though. They're both static abilities.) But I think
that they actually apply at the same time (as the Hana Kami comes into
play), not separately. You can't resolve items on the stack at the same
time, but these effects aren't using the stack (they're constant, on-going
abilities), so they can have no problem occuring (for the Hana Kami, anyway)
at the same time.

Remember, though, that the outcome of the two effects might look like
nothing is happening to the Kami, but in all actuality, it is still
getting -1/-1 and +1/+1. So, if you have a spell that says "Destroy all
creatures that have -1/-1.", it would still be destroyed.

Hope that didn't confuse you more.

--

KB

first initial last name AT gmail DOT com

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Kevin <Kevin@astroturfgarden.com> wrote:

> Can someone help me with the resolution of the following cards in play as I
> play a new creature:
>
> Situation:
> Night of Soul's Betrayal in play (all creatures get -1/-1)
> Long-Forgotten Gohei (Artifact; +1/+1 for all spirits)
>
> I play a Hana Kami (1/1 Spirit Creature)
>
> Do the two effects take place at the same time, negating each other?

They are in effect all the time.

405. Static Abilities

405.1. A static ability does something all the time rather than being
activated or triggered. The ability isn't played-it just "exists." Such
abilities apply only while the ability is on a permanent in play, unless
the ability is covered by rule 402.8 or 402.9.

> Or doesthe Hana Kami die as it comes into play?

Its toughness is 1 -1 +1 = 1. Why would it die?

> I'm guessing the former,
> but just not sure how the stack would work in this situation.

The stack is irrelevant.

408.2b Static abilities continuously generate effects and don't go on
the stack.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Kevin, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> Can someone help me with the resolution of the following cards in play as I
> play a new creature:
>
> Situation:
> Night of Soul's Betrayal in play (all creatures get -1/-1)
> Long-Forgotten Gohei (Artifact; +1/+1 for all spirits)
>
> I play a Hana Kami (1/1 Spirit Creature)
>
> Do the two effects take place at the same time, negating each other?
> Or doesthe Hana Kami die as it comes into play? I'm guessing the former,
> but just not sure how the stack would work in this situation.

The stack isn't involved. Both of these are continuous effects and thus
affect all eligible permanents all the time as long as the Night, Gohei
and the creature in question are all in play. Without going into the
finer points of continuous effects, suffice to say these two effectively
cancel each other out, and this takes place before there is any chance
for state-based effects to be checked, and therefore the Hana Kami in
your example would survive. If the Gohei were to leave play, the Hana
Kami would be sent to the graveyard before anything could go on the
stack (this does not itself use the stack), so if you wanted to do
something to save it you'd have to time it so it resolved while the
Long-Forgotten Gohei was still in play.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:18:47 -0500, Kevin <Kevin@astroturfgarden.com> wrote:
>Can someone help me with the resolution of the following cards in play as I
>play a new creature:
>
>Situation:
>Night of Soul's Betrayal in play (all creatures get -1/-1)
>Long-Forgotten Gohei (Artifact; +1/+1 for all spirits)

For Spirits, these essentially cancel out.

>I play a Hana Kami (1/1 Spirit Creature)
>
>Do the two effects take place at the same time, negating each other?

Yes, essentially. All applicable continuous effects get applied to anything new
that comes into play. For your Kami, this includes both of those; it gets +1/+1
and it gets -1/-1. +1/+1 + -1/-1 = +0/+0; when you finish applying everything,
the answer that comes back on "power and toughness?" is "they're the same as
printed, no change".

(For these two, which order you apply them in literally doesn't matter;
addition is commutative. For some continuous effects, the order does matter;
to figure out what happens in such cases, Magic uses timestamp and dependency.
See 418.5* in the rulebook.)

>Or doesthe Hana Kami die as it comes into play? I'm guessing the former,
>but just not sure how the stack would work in this situation.

The stack has nothing to do with this; we are not casting a spell, playing
a nonmana ability, or assigning combat damage here. Continuous effects apply
every moment of the game, and what matters if anything is the order they
apply in; in this case, the order doesn't matter either way, as they cancel
each other out "either way up". There is not a pause after applying one
existing continuous effect, before you apply another, in which the game can
"see" what things look like with only some of the applicable effects applied;
it sees the end result, always.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jeff Heikkinen <oh@s.if> wrote in message news:<MPG.1bdf451efb44858c989f6f@news.easynews.com>...
> Kevin, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> > Can someone help me with the resolution of the following cards in play as I
> > play a new creature:
> >
> > Situation:
> > Night of Soul's Betrayal in play (all creatures get -1/-1)
> > Long-Forgotten Gohei (Artifact; +1/+1 for all spirits)
> >
> > I play a Hana Kami (1/1 Spirit Creature)
> >
> > Do the two effects take place at the same time, negating each other?
> > Or doesthe Hana Kami die as it comes into play? I'm guessing the former,
> > but just not sure how the stack would work in this situation.
>
> The stack isn't involved. Both of these are continuous effects and thus
> affect all eligible permanents all the time as long as the Night, Gohei
> and the creature in question are all in play. Without going into the
> finer points of continuous effects, suffice to say these two effectively
> cancel each other out, and this takes place before there is any chance
> for state-based effects to be checked, and therefore the Hana Kami in
> your example would survive. If the Gohei were to leave play, the Hana
> Kami would be sent to the graveyard before anything could go on the
> stack (this does not itself use the stack), so if you wanted to do
> something to save it you'd have to time it so it resolved while the
> Long-Forgotten Gohei was still in play.

To be technical, the Hana Kami would not be sent to the graveyard
until state based effects are checked. If you could find a way to get
it's toughness above zero before this happened, they would remain in
play.

A way this could happen in practice is if you are in the middle of
resolving Thieves' Auction and the Hana Kami comes in after Night of
Soul's Betrayal but before the Gohei.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Daniel Testa, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> Jeff Heikkinen <oh@s.if> wrote in message news:<MPG.1bdf451efb44858c989f6f@news.easynews.com>...
> > Kevin, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> > > Can someone help me with the resolution of the following cards in play as I
> > > play a new creature:
> > >
> > > Situation:
> > > Night of Soul's Betrayal in play (all creatures get -1/-1)
> > > Long-Forgotten Gohei (Artifact; +1/+1 for all spirits)
> > >
> > > I play a Hana Kami (1/1 Spirit Creature)
> > >
> > > Do the two effects take place at the same time, negating each other?
> > > Or doesthe Hana Kami die as it comes into play? I'm guessing the former,
> > > but just not sure how the stack would work in this situation.
> >
> > The stack isn't involved. Both of these are continuous effects and thus
> > affect all eligible permanents all the time as long as the Night, Gohei
> > and the creature in question are all in play. Without going into the
> > finer points of continuous effects, suffice to say these two effectively
> > cancel each other out, and this takes place before there is any chance
> > for state-based effects to be checked, and therefore the Hana Kami in
> > your example would survive. If the Gohei were to leave play, the Hana
> > Kami would be sent to the graveyard before anything could go on the
> > stack (this does not itself use the stack), so if you wanted to do
> > something to save it you'd have to time it so it resolved while the
> > Long-Forgotten Gohei was still in play.
>
> To be technical, the Hana Kami would not be sent to the graveyard
> until state based effects are checked. If you could find a way to get
> it's toughness above zero before this happened, they would remain in
> play.
>
> A way this could happen in practice is if you are in the middle of
> resolving Thieves' Auction and the Hana Kami comes in after Night of
> Soul's Betrayal but before the Gohei.

Yes, that would work. Eureka is another spell that could do this. But
such cases are very rare and not what the typical person asking such a
question is thinking of. But yes, any time that multiple permanents
enter or leave play in one resolution in a particular order, there is
the potential for this sort of scenario.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 2004-10-22, Jeff Heikkinen <oh@s.if> wrote:
> Daniel Testa, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
>> A way this could happen in practice is if you are in the middle of
>> resolving Thieves' Auction and the Hana Kami comes in after Night of
>> Soul's Betrayal but before the Gohei.
>
> Yes, that would work. Eureka is another spell that could do this. But
> such cases are very rare and not what the typical person asking such a
> question is thinking of. But yes, any time that multiple permanents
> enter or leave play in one resolution in a particular order, there is
> the potential for this sort of scenario.

Those are very interesting scenarios, however, and I think help to illustrate
the point. Thank you for the answers, as I am getting back into Magic after a
long hiatus, and examples like these make me aware of cards I have missed.
K

--
In vino veritas
http://openwine.net

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Kevin, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> On 2004-10-22, Jeff Heikkinen <oh@s.if> wrote:
> > Daniel Testa, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> >> A way this could happen in practice is if you are in the middle of
> >> resolving Thieves' Auction and the Hana Kami comes in after Night of
> >> Soul's Betrayal but before the Gohei.
> >
> > Yes, that would work. Eureka is another spell that could do this. But
> > such cases are very rare and not what the typical person asking such a
> > question is thinking of. But yes, any time that multiple permanents
> > enter or leave play in one resolution in a particular order, there is
> > the potential for this sort of scenario.
>
> Those are very interesting scenarios, however, and I think help to illustrate
> the point. Thank you for the answers, as I am getting back into Magic after a
> long hiatus, and examples like these make me aware of cards I have missed.

Hey, no problem. (Although Eureka is a very old card, from Legends if I
remember correctly.)

Actually, it occurred to me later that Daniel's scenario doesn't
contradict my claim that if the Gohei left play, the Hana Kami would die
before anything could be put on the stack, since nothing can go on the
stack in the middle of a spell resolving!

--
Let's not let this drift into a topic about playing your alignment. I
have too much to do to be able to properly ridicule and post whore.
- Rob Singers