Surestrike Trident using last known info

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Surestrike Trident
2
Artifact — Equipment
Equipped creature has first strike and "T, Unattach Surestrike
Trident: This creature deals damage equal to its power to target
player."
Equip 4 (4: Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a
sorcery. This card comes into play unattached and stays in play if the
creature leaves play.)

The trident's on a 12/12 creature of my opponents. He attempts to
poke (if you can call 12 points a "poke") me and taps the equipped
creature. I remove the creature from the game with Swords to
Plowshares or some other such thing. Do I take 12 points, or nothing?

This seems like a boneheaded question, but the only relevant thing I
could find in the rules seems to support the 12 point answer, even
though that seems intuitively wrong to me...

413.2f If an effect requires information from the game (such as the
number of creatures in play), the answer is determined only once, when
the effect is applied. The effect uses the current information of a
specific permanent if that permanent is still in play, or of a
specific card in the stated zone; otherwise, the effect uses the last
known information the object had before leaving that zone. The
exception is that static abilities can't use last known information;
see rule 412.5. If the ability text states that an object does
something, it's the object as it exists (or most recently existed)
that does it, not the ability.

The last known info in this case is that the creature was a 12/12.

Can this be right? Hopefully not. If not, can someone quote the
relevant rules to me?

Thanks,

Rick

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Rick Kunkel <NOSPAM-kunkel@w-link.net> wrote:

> Can this be right? Hopefully not. If not, can someone quote the
> relevant rules to me?

The following rule is possibly more relevant and leads to the same
answer:

402.6. Once activated or triggered, an ability exists independently of
its source as an ability on the stack. Destruction or removal of the
source after that time won't affect the ability. Note that some
abilities cause a source to do something (for example, "Prodigal
Sorcerer deals 1 damage to target creature or player") rather than the
ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or
triggered ability that references information about the source will
check that information when the ability resolves, or will use the
source's last known information if it's no longer in play.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Rick Kunkel <NOSPAM-kunkel@w-link.net> writes:
> Surestrike Trident 2 Artifact -- Equipment
> Equipped creature has first strike and "T, Unattach Surestrike
> Trident: This creature deals damage equal to its power to target
> player."
> Equip 4 (4: Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a
> sorcery. This card comes into play unattached and stays in play if the
> creature leaves play.)
>
> The trident's on a 12/12 creature of my opponents. He attempts to
> poke (if you can call 12 points a "poke") me and taps the equipped
> creature. I remove the creature from the game with Swords to
> Plowshares or some other such thing. Do I take 12 points, or
> nothing?

You take 12.

> This seems like a boneheaded question, but the only relevant thing I
> could find in the rules seems to support the 12 point answer, even
> though that seems intuitively wrong to me...

Well, sometimes the rules aren't intuitive. It's unfortunate, but it
really makes most things work out better in the end.

> 413.2f If an effect requires information from the game (such as the
> number of creatures in play), the answer is determined only once,
> when the effect is applied. The effect uses the current information
> of a specific permanent if that permanent is still in play, or of a
> specific card in the stated zone; otherwise, the effect uses the
> last known information the object had before leaving that zone. The
> exception is that static abilities can't use last known information;
> see rule 412.5. If the ability text states that an object does
> something, it's the object as it exists (or most recently existed)
> that does it, not the ability.
>
> The last known info in this case is that the creature was a 12/12.

That's correct. The creature-as-it-most-recently-existed deals 12 to
you. Ouch.

> Can this be right? Hopefully not. If not, can someone quote the
> relevant rules to me?

Well, you already quoted a quite relevant rule. The following rule
addresses your situation more specifically:

402.6. Once activated or triggered, an ability exists independently of
its source as an ability on the stack. Destruction or removal
of the source after that time won't affect the ability. Note
that some abilities cause a source to do something (for
example, "Prodigal Sorcerer deals 1 damage to target
creature or player") rather than the ability doing anything
directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability
that references information about the source will check that
information when the ability resolves, or will use the source's
last known information if it's no longer in play.

--
Peter C.
"Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most
intriguing."
-- Data, "Haven", Star Trek, The Next Generation

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:48:31 -0400, pete+mtg@cooper.homedns.org (Peter
Cooper Jr.) wrote:

>Rick Kunkel <NOSPAM-kunkel@w-link.net> writes:
>> Surestrike Trident 2 Artifact -- Equipment
>> Equipped creature has first strike and "T, Unattach Surestrike
>> Trident: This creature deals damage equal to its power to target
>> player."
>> Equip 4 (4: Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a
>> sorcery. This card comes into play unattached and stays in play if the
>> creature leaves play.)
>>
>> The trident's on a 12/12 creature of my opponents. He attempts to
>> poke (if you can call 12 points a "poke") me and taps the equipped
>> creature. I remove the creature from the game with Swords to
>> Plowshares or some other such thing. Do I take 12 points, or
>> nothing?
>
>You take 12.
>
>> This seems like a boneheaded question, but the only relevant thing I
>> could find in the rules seems to support the 12 point answer, even
>> though that seems intuitively wrong to me...
>
>Well, sometimes the rules aren't intuitive. It's unfortunate, but it
>really makes most things work out better in the end.
>
>> 413.2f If an effect requires information from the game (such as the
>> number of creatures in play), the answer is determined only once,
>> when the effect is applied. The effect uses the current information
>> of a specific permanent if that permanent is still in play, or of a
>> specific card in the stated zone; otherwise, the effect uses the
>> last known information the object had before leaving that zone. The
>> exception is that static abilities can't use last known information;
>> see rule 412.5. If the ability text states that an object does
>> something, it's the object as it exists (or most recently existed)
>> that does it, not the ability.
>>
>> The last known info in this case is that the creature was a 12/12.
>
>That's correct. The creature-as-it-most-recently-existed deals 12 to
>you. Ouch.
>
>> Can this be right? Hopefully not. If not, can someone quote the
>> relevant rules to me?
>
>Well, you already quoted a quite relevant rule. The following rule
>addresses your situation more specifically:
>
>402.6. Once activated or triggered, an ability exists independently of
> its source as an ability on the stack. Destruction or removal
> of the source after that time won't affect the ability. Note
> that some abilities cause a source to do something (for
> example, "Prodigal Sorcerer deals 1 damage to target
> creature or player") rather than the ability doing anything
> directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability
> that references information about the source will check that
> information when the ability resolves, or will use the source's
> last known information if it's no longer in play.

So, strangely enough, if I could give the creature -6/-6 or something
before the ability resolves, I would take less than if I actually
destroyed it or otherwise removed it from play?

Thanks,

Rick

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Rick Kunkel <NOSPAM-kunkel@w-link.net> writes:
> pete+mtg@cooper.homedns.org (Peter Cooper Jr.) wrote:
>> Rick Kunkel <NOSPAM-kunkel@w-link.net> writes:
>>>
>>> The trident's on a 12/12 creature of my opponents. He attempts to
>>> poke (if you can call 12 points a "poke") me and taps the equipped
>>> creature. I remove the creature from the game with Swords to
>>> Plowshares or some other such thing. Do I take 12 points, or
>>> nothing?
>>
>> You take 12.
>
> So, strangely enough, if I could give the creature -6/-6 or something
> before the ability resolves, I would take less than if I actually
> destroyed it or otherwise removed it from play?

Yes, that's correct. Giving it -12/-12 would keep you from taking
anything.

A little weird in this case, I'll agree. But that's how it works.

--
Peter C.
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it
would be a merrier world."
-- J. R. R. Tolkien

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Rick Kunkel wrote:

> Surestrike Trident
> 2
> Artifact — Equipment
> Equipped creature has first strike and "T, Unattach Surestrike
> Trident: This creature deals damage equal to its power to target
> player."
> Equip 4 (4: Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a
> sorcery. This card comes into play unattached and stays in play if the
> creature leaves play.)
>
> The trident's on a 12/12 creature of my opponents. He attempts to
> poke (if you can call 12 points a "poke") me and taps the equipped
> creature. I remove the creature from the game with Swords to
> Plowshares or some other such thing. Do I take 12 points, or nothing?

You take twelve.
>
> This seems like a boneheaded question, but the only relevant thing I
> could find in the rules seems to support the 12 point answer, even
> though that seems intuitively wrong to me...

That's because the rules *do* support the 12-point answer.
>
> 413.2f If an effect requires information from the game (such as the
> number of creatures in play), the answer is determined only once, when
> the effect is applied. The effect uses the current information of a
> specific permanent if that permanent is still in play, or of a
> specific card in the stated zone; otherwise, the effect uses the last
> known information the object had before leaving that zone. The
> exception is that static abilities can't use last known information;
> see rule 412.5. If the ability text states that an object does
> something, it's the object as it exists (or most recently existed)
> that does it, not the ability.
>
> The last known info in this case is that the creature was a 12/12.

Correct.
>
> Can this be right? Hopefully not.

100% right.

> If not, can someone quote the
> relevant rules to me?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rick

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Rick Kunkel <NOSPAM-kunkel@w-link.net> wrote:
>>402.6. Once activated or triggered, an ability exists independently of
>> its source as an ability on the stack. Destruction or removal
>> of the source after that time won't affect the ability. Note
>> that some abilities cause a source to do something (for
>> example, "Prodigal Sorcerer deals 1 damage to target
>> creature or player") rather than the ability doing anything
>> directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability
>> that references information about the source will check that
>> information when the ability resolves, or will use the source's
>> last known information if it's no longer in play.
>
>So, strangely enough, if I could give the creature -6/-6 or something
>before the ability resolves, I would take less than if I actually
>destroyed it or otherwise removed it from play?

Right. If it's still THERE in play, its current info, whatever that is, gets
used. If it's not in play any more, but the ability's effect is looking for it
in play, the effect uses what it looked like when last seen in play.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.