Flipping the Initiate of Blood

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

I have a question regarding the use of the Initiate of Blood flipping to Goka
the Unjust. If I am using the Initiate (card info below) to block a 2/3
creature (say, an opponent's Zubera with a Gohei in play), and I block with
the Initiate, can I do this:

Block, allow damage to go onto the stack, tap to deal the one damage, and then
flip the card, thus preventing Initiate/Goka from going to the graveyard
because his toughness is now 4 and he's only been dealt 3 damage?

Does that work, or would he go to the graveyard anyway?

thanks,
K



Initiate of Blood {3}{R} Creature -- Ogre Shaman 2/2
{T}: ~this~ deals 1 damage to target creature that was dealt damage this
turn. When that creature is put into a graveyard this turn, flip ~this~.
-----
Goka the Unjust
Legendary Creature - Ogre Shaman 4/4
{T}: Goka the Unjust deals 4 damage to target creature that was dealt damage
this turn.

--
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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Kevin <Kevin@astroturfgarden.com> writes:
> I have a question regarding the use of the Initiate of Blood
> flipping to Goka the Unjust. If I am using the Initiate (card info
> below) to block a 2/3 creature (say, an opponent's Zubera with a
> Gohei in play), and I block with the Initiate, can I do this:
>
> Block, allow damage to go onto the stack, tap to deal the one
> damage, and then flip the card, thus preventing Initiate/Goka from
> going to the graveyard because his toughness is now 4 and he's only
> been dealt 3 damage?
>
> Does that work, or would he go to the graveyard anyway?

No, that doesn't work. The target of the Initiate's ability is "target
creature that was dealt damage this turn". When combat damage
assignments are on the stack, the 2/3 hasn't been dealt damage
yet. Once combat damage resolves, the Initiate will die before getting
a chance to use his ability.

> Initiate of Blood {3}{R} Creature -- Ogre Shaman 2/2
> {T}: ~this~ deals 1 damage to target creature that was dealt damage this
> turn. When that creature is put into a graveyard this turn, flip ~this~.
> -----
> Goka the Unjust
> Legendary Creature - Ogre Shaman 4/4
> {T}: Goka the Unjust deals 4 damage to target creature that was dealt damage
> this turn.

--
Peter C.
"This document defines one particular type of MIME data, the
matter-transport/sentient-life-form type"
-- RFC 1437, "The Extension of MIME Content-Types to a New Medium"

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 22:31:36 -0500, Kevin <Kevin@astroturfgarden.com> wrote:
>I have a question regarding the use of the Initiate of Blood flipping to Goka
>the Unjust. If I am using the Initiate (card info below) to block a 2/3
>creature (say, an opponent's Zubera with a Gohei in play), and I block with
>the Initiate, can I do this:
>
>Block, allow damage to go onto the stack, tap to deal the one damage, and then
>flip the card, thus preventing Initiate/Goka from going to the graveyard
>because his toughness is now 4 and he's only been dealt 3 damage?
>
>Does that work, or would he go to the graveyard anyway?

>{T}: ~this~ deals 1 damage to target creature that was dealt damage this
>turn. When that creature is put into a graveyard this turn, flip ~this~.

"Target creature that was dealt damage this turn". That should answer your
question: you can't even try to announce the ability until the creature in
question has been dealt the damage. If your 2/2 Initiate has dealt its combat
damage to a 2/3 creature it's blocking, then the 2/3 has ALSO dealt ITS combat
damage to the Initiate... and the Initiate will _be destroyed_ before you can
take any action after that, by a state-based effect.

The Initiate's ability can't be used BEFORE the other creature gets damaged,
in other words; you seem to want to use it while the spell/ability/combat
damage that is GOING TO damage the other creature is still on the stack, which
is a no-no - the other creature's not a legal target to choose unless damage
has already been dealt to it this turn.

Now if this was a _1/3_ attacker, this would be fine, as you could wait for
the 2 damage from the Initiate to be dealt to the attacker (and the 1 from the
attacker to be dealt to the Initiate at the same time), then AFTER that use
the Initiate's ability... because it would not be dead. But if it blocks a
2/3 attacker, it will be dead once combat damage has resolved and been dealt.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Kevin sez:

<<
>I have a question regarding the use of the Initiate of Blood flipping to Goka
>the Unjust. If I am using the Initiate (card info below) to block a 2/3
>creature (say, an opponent's Zubera with a Gohei in play), and I block with
>the Initiate, can I do this:
>
>Block, allow damage to go onto the stack, tap to deal the one damage, and
>then
>flip the card, thus preventing Initiate/Goka from going to the graveyard
>because his toughness is now 4 and he's only been dealt 3 damage?
>>

Sure, you can ping it in combat...IF the Zube has already been damaged this
turn. And the combat damage doesn't count. That's because, although the combat
damage is on the stack, it hasn't been dealt yet. And by the time that damage
IS dealt, it's also dealt to your Initiate, which would go bye-bye before it
could off the Zube.

Now, on the question of whether the Initiate survives...it doesn't look like
it. Because, like I said above, combat damage is dealt at the same time, after
everything else. and since the Initiate's ability sets up a delayed trigger,
by the time it's relevant, it looks like the Initiate's pushing up daisies.

So, in reality, you can't pull this trick at all...


----
"Wait. I thought you were going to be funny. Come on. Be funny."
"No. No. I'm not going to be your monkey."
Tucker Carlson v. Jon Stewart, Crossfire, 10/15